FO3. My thoughts good and bad. *SPOILERS*

pizzathehut

First time out of the vault
NOTE: I am in no way claiming that Fallout 3 is the greatest thing since Jesus. I in no way want to imply that I am totally happy with the departure from Fallout 2. On a 1-10 I would rate the game at about a 7, though a few tweaks could easily bump to an 8.

In list form... you gotta problem with that?

The Good:
-Fallout has its name on a new game!
Say what you want about it, but we have all waited an absurdly long time for this game. It just gives me the warm fuzzies.

-This is, in my opinion, Bethesda's best work.
Morrowind drew numerous complaints about boring quests with no diversity. Oblivion saw some improvement with a few quests that were actually fun after the first 5 minutes. Now, Fallout 3 at least has you wanting to click through to the next part of the quest just to see what happens. While the quests arent all that spectacular, FO3 is clear proof that Bethesda is improving. I will also point out that most of the downloadable quests for Oblivion had loads of fun stuff to do.

-The new FPS style gameplay does offer some interesting possibilities.
What about camouflaged armor? sub-skills based upon the existing skills? Allow me to elaborate my non-irradiated friends. The sneak mechanics in this game are pretty decent compared to most RPG's (not Deus Ex of course). I actually get the feeling that im lurking around the wastelands most of the time. But, it would be awesome fun to scavenge for, build, and apply camo to armor sets. Camo would be a sub-skill of sneak (gaining 2 or 3 points per point invested during level up and capped at the level of the parent skill). Take cinder blocks, whack em with a sledge hammer, add wonder glue, apply to armor. Voila, your power armor now offers additional concealment in outdoor urban environments. For dungeons, you would need somthing with a rusty quality to it. For the wastes, dirt and "plant" life. This would have been a cheesy mechanic in FO2, but with the 3D rendering it actually provides for greater realism. Especially when a Raider sniper is firing on you from god knows where and all you can do is run to find cover. This could really be somthing in F04 or an expansion.

-The dialogue, at times, is pretty spot on.
Moira. You cant tell me that the first time you heard her you couldnt stop thinking "this woman is bat-shit crazy!" Or how about that random wife in Aref**** (no spoilers up here ;) who thinks she is off to a tea party or some such nonsense. The brightest spot in this, to me, is that every character you speak to has actual recorded voice acting. This, alone, makes the dialogue more natural than many other RPG's. I also like that Lucy in Megaton actually states "if this were easy I would do it myself". To make it even better, trekking the wastes is always somthing you prepare for. Almost as if you fear what lies beyond the gates of the settlement. How many RPG's actualy did that to you? And no, saving before leaving the town doesnt count as preparation. I mean repairing your gear, checking every vendor for ammo and meds, and even bottling yourself some freaking water!

-The environment is pretty engaging.
See below for my rant about the current gripes (which will be alot of re-hasing from other posts im sure). This is what I expected the nuclear wasteland to be. Lonely, harsh, and sometimes downright scary. Has no one else been yakking on the phone only to freak when a Yao whatcha-ma-jigger pounced? Id actually like to see more "animalistic" tendencies to some beasts. Prowling, sneaking, and staying out of sight until ready to attack. Perhaps even trailing you a good distance as if following your scent (I imagine the unwashed masses of FO3 would have a VERY pungent aroma about them).

-Save/load times
I have an older system and they are still just absolutely fantastic. Even loading up the very first time doesnt take that long.

The Bad:
-The dialogue, at times, is freaking terrible.
Vance. I skipped through most of that just to freaking out of that place. In all, the dialogue is a major improvement over Oblivion. This, at the very least, should be hopes for better results in expansions and sequels. Kudos to another board member for pointing somthing out to me: The dialouge in F2 was written which allowed the player to imagine the verbilization. For example, when you use the Intelligence check on 3 Dog at GNR, the audio just doesnt seem to match the conversation. It seems that you rehashed what was obvious and were praised for it. However, look at the written text of his response. If I were just reading that text I would assume the response was sarcastic and I was actually being admonished. Somthing was lost in the voice acting.

-VATS.
Uh-oh... its an enemy! I better take my three automatic head shots! Im not sure how VATS could have been done any better in this FPS-style game, but Bethesda either needs to go turn based or FPS. One or the other because the two dont play well with each other. At the very least, require sleeping, fast travel, or vanilla style killing to charge up the action points again. Or pop some jet :)

-The bloody mess perk.
With the new style, it makes looting corpses incredbly difficult at times. At least give me the ability to turn off the gorey death. Maybe split the damage bonus into its own perk so i dont have to deal with it at all?

-The video configuration.
This is more of a gripe on all games. I HATE the guess and check tweaking. Why cant game designers have a preview video rendered with the current settings, and a second rendered with the proposed changes. Add in information on frame rates and such and the tweaking would become a breeze. At least then I could see what im sacrificing in quality to get 3 more FPS without having to load, exit, change, load, exit, change, load, exit, and so forth.

-Story/continuity errors/mishaps.
I cant bash Bethesda too much on this one. Keep in mind, there hasnt been a Fallout game in YEARS. Some discrepancies should have been expected. More on specific gripes below.

-Parties.
Bethesda just doesnt have it right. And I still want to play a Fallout RPG in which I can command my followers. Perhaps this would require a high charisma (giving you an actual benefit to investing in the attribute). Im thinking Freedom Fighter or Brothers in Arms kind of stuff. Go here, fire in this direction.

-Supression fire.
It doesnt exist. Enemies will find cover and duck at times, but high volumes of fire should make them hide and cry like little girls. Similar to my reaction when 4 super mutants with mini-guns get the drop on me. I'll be nice on the developers and not request that they simulate my pants wetting. Though that could make for some hysterical Fallout style dialogue. "DUDE DONT SHOOT ME PLEASE!" to which you can respond: 1. "*sniff sniff* oh thats just gross!" 2. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 3. D... did... you just soil yourself?

-Save Games.
Seriously. Let me name them. Im not kidding. ill... ill blow up the building. This is MY swingline stapler damnit. Its not that hard to let me name my saves is it?!?!?!?!?

-Allow me to skip straight to being 19 years old.
Its annoying that I have to go through the B-day party and the bible quote every single time I want to try a new build.

-The Music.
Aside from The Spots and a few songs on GNR, the game is seriously lacking in the soundtrack department. Maybe I just havent found enough radio stations or done quests to unlock them? Whatever the case, im getting pretty tired of the same old stuff.

-The FPS combat
Its simply too fast. Slow it down a tad! Firefights are over way too quickly. Dont just amplify the hitpoints to rediculous levels, but actually slow the world down just a bit. This would make terrain useful and provide for some semblance of strategy. The addition of a paused birds eye view would also be great (only for high perception characters?) At least just for planning your movements. Im not talking about bullet time in any way. Just make things a little bit slower so we can actually get our bearings and have a plan. That is to say, a plan other than hitting for VATS and blasting someone in the face.

-Swearing could have been used better.
Sometimes the swearing is ommited where it really should be there, other times its present when it really doesnt need to be. At times this suffers from the bad voice acting. At times, actors put too much emphasis on the fuck when the sentence clearly didnt warrant it. Also, swearing in the walking around mumbling state would be nice at times. Say your mean to Gob and then you exit the conversation. When you turn your back, wouldnt it be awesome if he said somthing like "Have a nice day.... ya douche-nozzle".

-Bad Voice Acting.
Try this for a little bit in a brand new area you havent been to before. Turn your the speech volume down to 0 and just read the dialog. Youll find that alot of the dialogue writing is actually above average. The voice acting really puts things out of context. I cant bash Bethesda for not having every single character in the game use a different voice, that would be exceedingly expensive to produce. And I dont want to give the impression that this is totally awful. The voice acting does have its moments. Liam Neeson is a just a good actor... So far every line I have heard out of him sounds just about right... though I think I would have chosen Samuel L. Jackson just for the hilarity ('Ive had it with these mother-fuckin' death claws!" and "Say FEV one more time motha-fucka!"

-No friendly "how do you do" from Wasteland Travelers.
Once in a while, a random encounter with a fellow traveler would be neat. Much like truckers on the highway, you could share information about the surrounding area. "Yeah, back south I saw a pack of Raiders dukeing it out with some slavers." For evil peeps you could lie about some enemies you passed up, or maybe tell them that a nearby puddle is completely free of radiation. How fun would it be to watch some guy, who is dying of thirst, drink himself stupid on radiation laden water? Now THATS Fallout!

The insanely ugly:
-No explanation for fast travel.
This bothers me only because we have ample motorcycles lying around that actually look like they are in decent condition. A quest line to get the motorcycle at Megaton would have been neat. Added quest lines for a side car upgrade when you have party members. Another quest for a towable cargo trunk would also be nifty. Another quest for a handlebar mounted auto-fire machine gun (fires only in a forward arc) so that when I fast travel to an area I dont immediately get ass raped on all sides. This way, I would only get ass and ear raped. My pouty lips could stay virginal ;).

-Ammo weighs nothing.
Im currently carrying about 2000+ rounds of ammo. That doesnt even make logistical sense. where the hell am I putting all of it? My character must have the largest unit in all history because squeezing out rounds from said unit would have to be common to carry all that crap. The cargo trailer/motorcycle would help to combat the effects of ammo weighing somthing.



****YAR MATEY! THAR BE SPOILERS AHEEEED!****





****LAST CHANCE TO TURN BACK****






****SERIOUSLY... SPOILERS... THEY BE COMIN'****







****JOO REALLY WANNA SEE DEM?****



Plot/story goodness.
-Vault 92.
I would have liked this better if there were no enemies in this Vault at all. Making it a trap/puzzle area would have been better. Vault 92 did have me very intrigued anyways and I thoroughly enjoyed exploring it. Now to figure out what to do with the violin... im sure its a quest item for somthing.


Plot mishaps and what-nots.
1. The great Enclave debate.
If you play the quest "Those!", you will come across some information regarding a former Enclave member who fled East. He seemed to have no idea that the Enclave was on the East coast, nor that they had a new president. This would seem to suggest a large gap in the story, but I think we need to apply occum's razor here. The simplest explanation is that a group split off from the Enclave, headed east, and set up shop using the same model as the original. Or that the original is actually a copy-cat of the eastern orginization. Either one is plausible. To gripe about this not being "realistic" is insane. Seriously... you already forgave a corpse man with a tree growing out of his head, 30' tall mutants who can take shots from a shoulder carried nuke cannon, the fact that said nuke cannon doesnt incinerate you (or the environment) instantly despite being only about 45' away, and bobble heads that grant you the ability to run faster and hit harder. So... since were already allowing for so much disbelief, why is it so hard to believe that a political orginization may have experience a fissure at some point? Hell, we almost witnessed one in the Democratic party with all the Clinton/Obama gobble-dee-gook.

-Vault Tec HQ
Why is it that a company that built so many bomb-proof vaults didnt make one for themselves? It would be kind of cool to actually run into a group that claims to be descendant of the Vault-Tec board or somthing. Maybe this generates quests to help restore manufacturing capabilities for some of Vault-Tec's products? I just dont see how no one from the original Vault-Tec elite didnt have a spot in a vault somewhere. It just doesnt make any sense that this business, which stands to gain from WW3, wouldnt actually plan for it themselves. I mean, they would have a total monopoly when everything was settled top-side.

-The Brotherhood of Steel being out east.
This is actually explained through Fallout Tactics. There was a split in the BoS at one point. It also explains that the BOS moved east in blimps, some of which crashed in the mid-west. So there could actually be BoS derivatives strewn all across the USA. Since this game is centered around the BoS, I consider it to be the bible when it comes to that faction. Also, it was made by Interplay... the original source of Falloutey goodness.

-Vampires?!?!?!?!?
Seriously. This is a cheesy attempt to attract the Goth community to a game that SHOULD be a damn pheremone to them anyways. Axe em!

-Dad snuck into... and then up and left the Vault?
Doesnt make sense. I havent finished the main quest yet, but its already looking flimsy at best. Just once, I would like to see you choose the actual goal of a game. Fallout always seemed like the best vehicle or this. Perhaps, at some point in child-hood, your actions determine what your main quest will be. Maybe you just want to be a selfish bastard with a harem full of slave girls. Perhaps you want to be a ruthless wasteland warlord. Maybe you want to find all of the GECKS and be the second-coming. Or... perhaps... you want to get on a boat and get the hell out of the US entirely in hopes of finding someplace green. Micronesia anyone? for that matter, why wasnt Micronesia explained in F02? the enclave had airplanes... couldnt they have checked to see if it was still green? They would have known it existed... im sure someone in the Enclave had a fucking globe!!!!!

-The origins of the war.
STOP!!!!! For god sakes stop! Some things are better left a mystery! I didnt want to know that China invaded Alaska. And the motivation doesnt make sense either! They wanted oil? FOR WHAT?!?!?! The world has fusion batteries that can power cars! What in the fuck do you need oil for?!?!? Im just going to blame this one on all you moose-molesting bastards out there to make myself feel better. Thats right... Alaskans... this is ALL YOUR FAULT!

-Aliens?
*shakes his head no and walks away*

-No tehcnological innovation at all.
I understand that these inventions would be difficult, but do you mean to tell me there hasnt been any improvement in firearms technology in 200 years? Given that guns are a major part of life, I simply cant believe that no one out there has found a way to make guns more efficient. I also dislike the complete lack of squad based machine guns such as the Browning automatic rifle in WW2 or the modern SAW (squad automatic weapon?). the fact that we jump from assault rifles to mini-guns with nothing in between is just plain silly.

-Insane reload times on missile weapons.
They reload too fast. Even today, these weapons are designed to be used by two people. One firing, and one loading. One person could not possibly reload a weapon that heavy in 4 seconds. Especially not while still moving around.

-Only two followers
Even Fallout 2 had more choices than that. I guess no one wants to hang out with the guy who can off 100 super mutants all by himself. Kind of stupid though... that would be EXACTLY the friend I would want to have in a nuclear wasteland.

-No pure dialog win.
Its a nuclear wasteland. Get used to the fact that there are hundreds of violent meanies out there. If this is an option, it should be EXTREMELY INSANELY difficult to pull off.
 
Aliens were actually in the original FO. Not sure about FO2, haven't played it yet, but they were a random encounter where you can pick up an awesome weapon from their dead bodies. And even though I thought the story sort of blew in FO3, I did like the gameplay and graphics.
 
Tarissky said:
Aliens were actually in the original FO. Not sure about FO2, haven't played it yet, but they were a random encounter where you can pick up an awesome weapon from their dead bodies. And even though I thought the story sort of blew in FO3, I did like the gameplay and graphics.

What do aliens add to the environment, story, or anything in Fallout? Nothing. At least make it a quest line or somthing. Picking up random bits of clues here and there and eventually fill in where the ship would be. A random ship just out in the wastes isnt interesting.
 
pizzathehut said:
What do aliens add to the environment, story, or anything in Fallout? Nothing. At least make it a quest line or somthing. Picking up random bits of clues here and there and eventually fill in where the ship would be. A random ship just out in the wastes isnt interesting.

Because the aliens/ufo thing is just an easter egg in Fallout. In Fallout 2 there are these alien like things, that are called wadamingos or aliens. But the ship thing is just a random SPECIAL encounter. You can even find the star trek shuttle in Fallout 2.
So why don't we have captain Kirk in the game ? because its an extra , easter egg.

Also the FPS part falls in to Bad points in my book. This IS supposed to be sequel to Fallout and Fallout 2. Oh well. It really doesn't matter if they just threw pretty much everything that made originals amazing games. Like good dialogue, dark, sometimes ironic humour, good story, deep game world, rememberable NPCs ,just to mention some.
Edit: the tanker aliens might be result of FEV and goverment experiments. Who knows ? might even be real aliens.
 
I think Fallout was quite vague about 'Aliens' in the wasteland.

The wanamingos, aliens and 'tanker aliens' were obviously the same species, and they do resemble some aspects of the xenomorphs from 'Aliens'. (The references though make quite certain they are indeed aliens)

But throughout the game the only reference that is made that they are from outer-space is that they are named 'Aliens'. Other than that, you hear people speculating they could be aliens, they could be demons, spiritis of people departed and so on. So I think FO left that vague on purpose.

Add that to the fact these 'Aliens' show no signs of inteligence, society or tool-use and it makes you wonder how they got in this planet on the first place. They just seem to be agressive predators like many other wasteland species, which I think is the category they fit into anyways.
 
Patton89 said:
pizzathehut said:
What do aliens add to the environment, story, or anything in Fallout? Nothing. At least make it a quest line or somthing. Picking up random bits of clues here and there and eventually fill in where the ship would be. A random ship just out in the wastes isnt interesting.

Because the aliens/ufo thing is just an easter egg in Fallout. In Fallout 2 there are these alien like things, that are called wadamingos or aliens. But the ship thing is just a random SPECIAL encounter. You can even find the star trek shuttle in Fallout 2.
So why don't we have captain Kirk in the game ? because its an extra , easter egg.

Also the FPS part falls in to Bad points in my book. This IS supposed to be sequel to Fallout and Fallout 2. Oh well. It really doesn't matter if they just threw pretty much everything that made originals amazing games. Like good dialogue, dark, sometimes ironic humour, good story, deep game world, rememberable NPCs ,just to mention some.
Edit: the tanker aliens might be result of FEV and goverment experiments. Who knows ? might even be real aliens.

Why would you expect anything but an FPS/RPG hybrid? Even if Interplay made this game, sales is king. No one is making games to delight the hearts of nostalgic games like you and I. They are making games to generate revenue and, hopefully profit as well. Face it, the Fallout universe lends itself well to this style of play. I think the combat system would be vastly improved if, when you got into a fight, things would slow down by about 20% or so. That would make fighting much more enjoyable. I would also like to see slower weapon fire rates and lower hit points. This would make things a touch more realistic in that no one (save super mutants) could take 6 bullets to kill (or even would).
 
pizzathehut said:
Why would you expect anything but an FPS/RPG hybrid? Even if Interplay made this game, sales is king. No one is making games to delight the hearts of nostalgic games like you and I. They are making games to generate revenue and, hopefully profit as well. Face it, the Fallout universe lends itself well to this style of play. I think the combat system would be vastly improved if, when you got into a fight, things would slow down by about 20% or so. That would make fighting much more enjoyable. I would also like to see slower weapon fire rates and lower hit points. This would make things a touch more realistic in that no one (save super mutants) could take 6 bullets to kill (or even would).

I never mentioned combat OR FP or ISO. I only mentioned the lack of story and other things. FPS might work if well implemented and balanced. But beth failed to do so, the combat is easy and VATS is just stupid. But really, NOT all games have to be FP. Seriously, look at DIII. Its not FP action game now. And i do have the right to expect the sequel to be a real sequel. No need to butcher the RPG part to satisfy the FPS kiddies. shees.
 
They could have made a good FO3 in FPS if they integrated elements from FEAR.

Imagine slow-mo being the equivalent of VATS/TB system. The more agility you have, the longer it lasts. Using the iron sights/scope/aiming down the barrel of your weapon counts as an 'Aimed Shot', which logically has a higher chance of causing criticals.

Have a little box, quite small, at the bottom left of the HUD. Shoot the guy in the head, through aimed, and ''Bandid critically hit in the head'' for 89 hit points. Dead.

Now shoot him normally, without slow-mo or aimed shot, and perhaps it takes 2-3 head shots to actually kill him. Same goes for Torso. Aimed shot at the heart, critical (well, depends on luck and stuff). But in normal mode, you have a lesser chance of causing criticals.

Sniper perk means everytime you shoot aimed, either in slow mo or not guarantees a critical hit, as long as the area hit is a critical area (head, heart, knee joints, groin, etc)

Shooting people in the limbs, especially legs and decapacitating them effectively knocks them unconscious or immobile. This leaves them vulnerable to looting, summary execution and so on.

Not to mention your accuracy in both normal and 'slow mo' is linked to your skills with ''Small guns'', ''Heavy Guns'' and ''Energy Weapons''. Same goes if you are playing a hand to hand/melee character. We all knew how powerful the kicks/punches in FEAR were.

That, for me, would have made an acceptable FO3 FPS.
 
I was just mooching through the game and now have a reason to add to this rant/discussion ok;

VATS- I agree with OP, its simply 3 (5 or 6 in my characters case) head shots before FPS mode resumes... about as tactical as a bookcase.

Bloody mess- really there's no point, I can tear limbs and explode heads by talking in a nasty tone of voice, the inhabitants of the waste seem all too eager to explode at any stage. A perk to make this even more explosive is quite frankly bleh, at least in previous FO's it was a funny extra.

and now for some of my own bits

*spoilers included folks*



I was asked to retrieve a photo of the Lincoln memorial, and lo and behold after 200 years on a wall a perfectly preserved paper poster

WHAT THE HELL?! invincible paper?

and yes, another and quite MAJOR gripe, I spent a good 3 sessions of playing attempting to solve the Tenpenny/Ghoul situation, I finally gave up as for some obscure reason several dialogue options had closed leaving me no option but to actually kill the offending NPC (is it sooooo hard to have multiple attempts at dialogues? attempting to talk to the NPC about a situation?)

anyway, 3 dead people later and some lost karma, I proceed to Tenpenny and state that everything is funky-doodles and the problematic people have been 'handled'. sure enough he's happy to invite the ghouls in, off I trot to go tell them the good news.

YAY think I, I've solved this with only a few casualties ...

I talk with Roy, he's happy and the ghouls thank me and get on their way to their new home.

I think to myself at this point, ok, I'll head off do some stuff, come back and see how things are going.

I arrive at Tenpenny tower.

"hello Roy, where are all the 'smoothskins'?"

"oh I guess they didn't like their new neighbours I helped em move out"

after asking around I get the impression that Roy has slaughtered all the previous tenants..

WHAT IN THE HAIRY BALLS? I spend god knows how long attempting to get the best possible outcome for all parties and i may as well just have knocked on the Tenpenny tower door and opened fire the moment I saw anyone.

WASTE OF TIME!

I was frustrated to the point that I killed Roy there and then.

long and arduous rant concluded.
 
Doesn't killing Roy net you negative Karma?

And there is no reason at all that an Isometric viewpoint game can't sell in this day and age. Saying otherwise is ignorant. Is Blizzard ditching Iso for Diablo 3 to make it FPP? How successful was NWN and NWN2, enough at least.
 
Naw. I kind of dug that. A dynamic world shouldn't play out to your expectations. It was awkward but it justifies any latent dermal based elitism you may have and your subsequent genocidal actions.... or did I miss the point of this part?

That scenario would somewhat justify popping the FEV pill in the this-is-the end-of-game chute though don't it.
 
cratchety ol joe said:
I was just mooching through the game and now have a reason to add to this rant/discussion ok;

VATS- I agree with OP, its simply 3 (5 or 6 in my characters case) head shots before FPS mode resumes... about as tactical as a bookcase.

Bloody mess- really there's no point, I can tear limbs and explode heads by talking in a nasty tone of voice, the inhabitants of the waste seem all too eager to explode at any stage. A perk to make this even more explosive is quite frankly bleh, at least in previous FO's it was a funny extra.

and now for some of my own bits

*spoilers included folks*



I was asked to retrieve a photo of the Lincoln memorial, and lo and behold after 200 years on a wall a perfectly preserved paper poster

WHAT THE HELL?! invincible paper?

and yes, another and quite MAJOR gripe, I spent a good 3 sessions of playing attempting to solve the Tenpenny/Ghoul situation, I finally gave up as for some obscure reason several dialogue options had closed leaving me no option but to actually kill the offending NPC (is it sooooo hard to have multiple attempts at dialogues? attempting to talk to the NPC about a situation?)

anyway, 3 dead people later and some lost karma, I proceed to Tenpenny and state that everything is funky-doodles and the problematic people have been 'handled'. sure enough he's happy to invite the ghouls in, off I trot to go tell them the good news.

YAY think I, I've solved this with only a few casualties ...

I talk with Roy, he's happy and the ghouls thank me and get on their way to their new home.

I think to myself at this point, ok, I'll head off do some stuff, come back and see how things are going.

I arrive at Tenpenny tower.

"hello Roy, where are all the 'smoothskins'?"

"oh I guess they didn't like their new neighbours I helped em move out"

after asking around I get the impression that Roy has slaughtered all the previous tenants..

WHAT IN THE HAIRY BALLS? I spend god knows how long attempting to get the best possible outcome for all parties and i may as well just have knocked on the Tenpenny tower door and opened fire the moment I saw anyone.

WASTE OF TIME!

I was frustrated to the point that I killed Roy there and then.

long and arduous rant concluded.

I feel your pain on the Tenpenny thing, but the paper is just nitpickery. There were posters and such in FO2. Its quite funny to see everyone bash Bethesda for the same things Interplay did years ago. This includes wooden houses, trees, paper, electronics still working, insane amounts of ammo/loot for a nuclear wasteland, etc. If you cant accept these things now in FO3, then please send me your copy of FO2 because my dog tore the crap out of mine.
 
Trithne said:
Doesn't killing Roy net you negative Karma?

And there is no reason at all that an Isometric viewpoint game can't sell in this day and age. Saying otherwise is ignorant. Is Blizzard ditching Iso for Diablo 3 to make it FPP? How successful was NWN and NWN2, enough at least.

Not nearly as successful as Morrowind or Oblivion. Though the success of Diablo 3 is yet to be seen. An aside, the only reason im interested in Diablo 3 is because I want to see how they can make click and whack adventures entertaining. Really... havent we seen all that genre can offer already?

I would absolutely cry if anyone made another Fallout game in the style of NWN or Diablo. Think about these two:
-NWN has a "turn-based" system that displays in real time. Sound familiar? It should... because that game was called Brotherhood of Steel. It failed... epicly.... it was an epic fail. Get it?!?!? An epic is a tale... RPG's tell tales.... epic fail..... HA!

-Would anyone here want a Fallout game reduced to click and whack? Oh yeah... that would be a REAL Fallout right there. BAHAHAHA! I did it again! Real Fallout. Seriously though I didnt mean to make either pun.

The Oblivion-esque FO3 is closer to Fallout than NWN or Diablo ever could be.
 
pizzathehut said:
I feel your pain on the Tenpenny thing, but the paper is just nitpickery. There were posters and such in FO2. Its quite funny to see everyone bash Bethesda for the same things Interplay did years ago. This includes wooden houses, trees, paper, electronics still working, insane amounts of ammo/loot for a nuclear wasteland, etc. If you cant accept these things now in FO3, then please send me your copy of FO2 because my dog tore the crap out of mine.

Poster were explainable as there were plenty of trees, and from trees you can make paper. And there were advanced settlements, NCR for an example.
Wooden houses were lived in, they weren't abandoned ala fallout 3. And there were trees so theres wood. People could maintain the wooden houses and rebuild them. Electronics worked in reasonable places, like the NCR, VC or San Fran, places that HAD the technology and electricity. Not in Den, or klamath, but in fallout 3 there were computers in almost perfect shape in the middle of nowhere UNMAINTAINED. Oh yeah, just like Fallout 2.
And the loot part, if you play the game on hard/normal, you won't get that much stuff. ammo is scarse, and its not in every damn abandoned building. Take gauss guns as an example, the ammo is hard to get. In fallout 3 you can easily get the mini nukes, hell theres one near starting area if i remember correctly. Yeah no difference at all.

Edit: removed useless lines
 
pizzathehut said:
Trithne said:
Doesn't killing Roy net you negative Karma?

And there is no reason at all that an Isometric viewpoint game can't sell in this day and age. Saying otherwise is ignorant. Is Blizzard ditching Iso for Diablo 3 to make it FPP? How successful was NWN and NWN2, enough at least.

Not nearly as successful as Morrowind or Oblivion. Though the success of Diablo 3 is yet to be seen. An aside, the only reason im interested in Diablo 3 is because I want to see how they can make click and whack adventures entertaining. Really... havent we seen all that genre can offer already?

I would absolutely cry if anyone made another Fallout game in the style of NWN or Diablo. Think about these two:
-NWN has a "turn-based" system that displays in real time. Sound familiar? It should... because that game was called Brotherhood of Steel. It failed... epicly.... it was an epic fail. Get it?!?!? An epic is a tale... RPG's tell tales.... epic fail..... HA!

-Would anyone here want a Fallout game reduced to click and whack? Oh yeah... that would be a REAL Fallout right there. BAHAHAHA! I did it again! Real Fallout. Seriously though I didnt mean to make either pun.

The Oblivion-esque FO3 is closer to Fallout than NWN or Diablo ever could be.

Congratulations, you fail at comprehension, and win the "missed the point entirely!" award!

I wasn't advocating point-click gameplay. I was advocating isometric viewpoint over first-person, which remains entirely valid in this day and age despite a continual stream of claims to the contrary.
 
Trithne said:
pizzathehut said:
Trithne said:
Doesn't killing Roy net you negative Karma?

And there is no reason at all that an Isometric viewpoint game can't sell in this day and age. Saying otherwise is ignorant. Is Blizzard ditching Iso for Diablo 3 to make it FPP? How successful was NWN and NWN2, enough at least.

Not nearly as successful as Morrowind or Oblivion. Though the success of Diablo 3 is yet to be seen. An aside, the only reason im interested in Diablo 3 is because I want to see how they can make click and whack adventures entertaining. Really... havent we seen all that genre can offer already?

I would absolutely cry if anyone made another Fallout game in the style of NWN or Diablo. Think about these two:
-NWN has a "turn-based" system that displays in real time. Sound familiar? It should... because that game was called Brotherhood of Steel. It failed... epicly.... it was an epic fail. Get it?!?!? An epic is a tale... RPG's tell tales.... epic fail..... HA!

-Would anyone here want a Fallout game reduced to click and whack? Oh yeah... that would be a REAL Fallout right there. BAHAHAHA! I did it again! Real Fallout. Seriously though I didnt mean to make either pun.

The Oblivion-esque FO3 is closer to Fallout than NWN or Diablo ever could be.

Congratulations, you fail at comprehension, and win the "missed the point entirely!" award!

I wasn't advocating point-click gameplay. I was advocating isometric viewpoint over first-person, which remains entirely valid in this day and age despite a continual stream of claims to the contrary.

Your personal attacks are both unessecary and hypocritical. I did indeed address the point you made in your original reply. You are combating a valid argument with 3rd grade retorts. NWN=Brotherhood of Steel. NWN works for NWN. Magic and swords.

Diablo=An off the wall comparison that ignores the fact that even GOOD click and whack games with an isometric view have only done moderately well in the market place. Titan Quest comes to mind. In the mind of many that game was better than Diablo 2, and yet, didnt have anywhere near the sales.
 
pizzathehut said:
In list form... you gotta problem with that?

Easier to rip apart, thanks. :D

The Good:
-Fallout has its name on a new game!
Say what you want about it, but we have all waited an absurdly long time for this game. It just gives me the warm fuzzies.

I guess slapping a Fallout sign on a turd will do that too?

-This is, in my opinion, Bethesda's best work.
Morrowind drew numerous complaints about boring quests with no diversity. Oblivion saw some improvement with a few quests that were actually fun after the first 5 minutes. Now, Fallout 3 at least has you wanting to click through to the next part of the quest just to see what happens. While the quests arent all that spectacular, FO3 is clear proof that Bethesda is improving. I will also point out that most of the downloadable quests for Oblivion had loads of fun stuff to do.

Morrowind was done by a different crew. Oblivion and Fo3 were done by a bunch of n00bs with no industry experience under a Daggerfall dungeon designer 'tard, and it painfully shows.

Morrowind was interesting for the most part.

-The new FPS style gameplay does offer some interesting possibilities.
What about camouflaged armor? sub-skills based upon the existing skills? Allow me to elaborate my non-irradiated friends. The sneak mechanics in this game are pretty decent compared to most RPG's (not Deus Ex of course). I actually get the feeling that im lurking around the wastelands most of the time. But, it would be awesome fun to scavenge for, build, and apply camo to armor sets. Camo would be a sub-skill of sneak (gaining 2 or 3 points per point invested during level up and capped at the level of the parent skill). Take cinder blocks, whack em with a sledge hammer, add wonder glue, apply to armor. Voila, your power armor now offers additional concealment in outdoor urban environments. For dungeons, you would need somthing with a rusty quality to it. For the wastes, dirt and "plant" life. This would have been a cheesy mechanic in FO2, but with the 3D rendering it actually provides for greater realism. Especially when a Raider sniper is firing on you from god knows where and all you can do is run to find cover. This could really be somthing in F04 or an expansion.

1. You have a compass showing you enemies
2. HAve fun implementing an ultimately pointless mechanic, since Sneak is very primitive. IT wouldn't be a bad thing if the Sneak skill was better developed.

-The dialogue, at times, is pretty spot on.
Moira. You cant tell me that the first time you heard her you couldnt stop thinking "this woman is bat-shit crazy!" Or how about that random wife in Aref**** (no spoilers up here ;) who thinks she is off to a tea party or some such nonsense. The brightest spot in this, to me, is that every character you speak to has actual recorded voice acting. This, alone, makes the dialogue more natural than many other RPG's. I also like that Lucy in Megaton actually states "if this were easy I would do it myself". To make it even better, trekking the wastes is always somthing you prepare for. Almost as if you fear what lies beyond the gates of the settlement. How many RPG's actualy did that to you? And no, saving before leaving the town doesnt count as preparation. I mean repairing your gear, checking every vendor for ammo and meds, and even bottling yourself some freaking water!

The dialogue is generally atrocious. And pointless, since it usually results in the same thing.

As for the second part, yes, that feeling is nice. Up until you stop shitting your pants at the sight of a raider and start killing stuff, and realize that the amount of loot allows you to buy pretty much everything.

And find the Outcast base, where you can turn in those laser pistols you find in exchange for those sweet ssssstimpaks. I ended up having around 200-300 of those, making me the Hotkey God of Death.

-The environment is pretty engaging.
See below for my rant about the current gripes (which will be alot of re-hasing from other posts im sure). This is what I expected the nuclear wasteland to be. Lonely, harsh, and sometimes downright scary. Has no one else been yakking on the phone only to freak when a Yao whatcha-ma-jigger pounced? Id actually like to see more "animalistic" tendencies to some beasts. Prowling, sneaking, and staying out of sight until ready to attack. Perhaps even trailing you a good distance as if following your scent (I imagine the unwashed masses of FO3 would have a VERY pungent aroma about them).

Yup, the environment is pretty good... if you disregard Bethesda's statement that it's a world 200 years after a nuclear war. If you assume it's 50 at most and ignore muties, the Enclave and the Brotherhood, it's great. Especially downtown DC.

The Bad:
-The dialogue, at times, is freaking terrible.
Vance. I skipped through most of that just to freaking out of that place. In all, the dialogue is a major improvement over Oblivion. This, at the very least, should be hopes for better results in expansions and sequels. Kudos to another board member for pointing somthing out to me: The dialouge in F2 was written which allowed the player to imagine the verbilization. For example, when you use the Intelligence check on 3 Dog at GNR, the audio just doesnt seem to match the conversation. It seems that you rehashed what was obvious and were praised for it. However, look at the written text of his response. If I were just reading that text I would assume the response was sarcastic and I was actually being admonished. Somthing was lost in the voice acting.

Exactly. Ironically, the written dialogue from Fo and Fo2 is far more immersive than the five-voice-types dialogues from Fo3.

-VATS.
Uh-oh... its an enemy! I better take my three automatic head shots! Im not sure how VATS could have been done any better in this FPS-style game, but Bethesda either needs to go turn based or FPS. One or the other because the two dont play well with each other. At the very least, require sleeping, fast travel, or vanilla style killing to charge up the action points again. Or pop some jet :)

How about implement a GoW style cover system with extremely lethal weapons? Would work better and simulate the hostility of the wasteland.

-The bloody mess perk.
With the new style, it makes looting corpses incredbly difficult at times. At least give me the ability to turn off the gorey death. Maybe split the damage bonus into its own perk so i dont have to deal with it at all?

And lack of really critical deaths. Seeing a supermutants head explode for the 500th time is BO-RING.

-The video configuration.
This is more of a gripe on all games. I HATE the guess and check tweaking. Why cant game designers have a preview video rendered with the current settings, and a second rendered with the proposed changes. Add in information on frame rates and such and the tweaking would become a breeze. At least then I could see what im sacrificing in quality to get 3 more FPS without having to load, exit, change, load, exit, change, load, exit, and so forth.

Damn right.

-Story/continuity errors/mishaps.
I cant bash Bethesda too much on this one. Keep in mind, there hasnt been a Fallout game in YEARS. Some discrepancies should have been expected. More on specific gripes below.

Except those discrepancies are major and easily avoidable if those tards played Fo1 and paid attention. Granted, many additions fit perfectly (Museum of Technology comes to mind), but some... are just stupid and pointless.

And if they didn't want to play, they could've just studied the Vault closely. Unfortunately, they just did what's cool and didn't do anyin depth research.

-Parties.
Bethesda just doesnt have it right. And I still want to play a Fallout RPG in which I can command my followers. Perhaps this would require a high charisma (giving you an actual benefit to investing in the attribute). Im thinking Freedom Fighter or Brothers in Arms kind of stuff. Go here, fire in this direction.

Hehe, wasn't getting hit in the back by Ian the charm? ;)

-Supression fire.
It doesnt exist. Enemies will find cover and duck at times, but high volumes of fire should make them hide and cry like little girls. Similar to my reaction when 4 super mutants with mini-guns get the drop on me. I'll be nice on the developers and not request that they simulate my pants wetting. Though that could make for some hysterical Fallout style dialogue. "DUDE DONT SHOOT ME PLEASE!" to which you can respond: 1. "*sniff sniff* oh thats just gross!" 2. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 3. D... did... you just soil yourself?

I lost that reaction the instant I remembered what's godmode, err, VATS for.

-Save Games.
Seriously. Let me name them. Im not kidding. ill... ill blow up the building. This is MY swingline stapler damnit. Its not that hard to let me name my saves is it?!?!?!?!?

Fuck yes.

-Allow me to skip straight to being 19 years old.
Its annoying that I have to go through the B-day party and the bible quote every single time I want to try a new build.

*nod*

-The Music.
Aside from The Spots and a few songs on GNR, the game is seriously lacking in the soundtrack department. Maybe I just havent found enough radio stations or done quests to unlock them? Whatever the case, im getting pretty tired of the same old stuff.

There are three: GNR, Enclave and Agatha's Station.

-The FPS combat
Its simply too fast. Slow it down a tad! Firefights are over way too quickly. Dont just amplify the hitpoints to rediculous levels, but actually slow the world down just a bit. This would make terrain useful and provide for some semblance of strategy. The addition of a paused birds eye view would also be great (only for high perception characters?) At least just for planning your movements. Im not talking about bullet time in any way. Just make things a little bit slower so we can actually get our bearings and have a plan. That is to say, a plan other than hitting for VATS and blasting someone in the face.

Yup. I remember firefights in CoD4 and GoW, they were rather intense and relatively long.

Plot mishaps and what-nots.
1. The great Enclave debate.
If you play the quest "Those!", you will come across some information regarding a former Enclave member who fled East. He seemed to have no idea that the Enclave was on the East coast, nor that they had a new president. This would seem to suggest a large gap in the story, but I think we need to apply occum's razor here. The simplest explanation is that a group split off from the Enclave, headed east, and set up shop using the same model as the original. Or that the original is actually a copy-cat of the eastern orginization. Either one is plausible. To gripe about this not being "realistic" is insane. Seriously... you already forgave a corpse man with a tree growing out of his head, 30' tall mutants who can take shots from a shoulder carried nuke cannon, the fact that said nuke cannon doesnt incinerate you (or the environment) instantly despite being only about 45' away, and bobble heads that grant you the ability to run faster and hit harder. So... since were already allowing for so much disbelief, why is it so hard to believe that a political orginization may have experience a fissure at some point? Hell, we almost witnessed one in the Democratic party with all the Clinton/Obama gobble-dee-gook.

Except we aren't forgiving that. It's still retarded, and Grayditch's element, while interesting, is another part of "Bethesda doesn't understand Fallout". I can understand the Enclave going on a cross-country hike, they have the tech and resources. I can't understand a single guy with his family doing that.

-Vault Tec HQ
Why is it that a company that built so many bomb-proof vaults didnt make one for themselves? It would be kind of cool to actually run into a group that claims to be descendant of the Vault-Tec board or somthing. Maybe this generates quests to help restore manufacturing capabilities for some of Vault-Tec's products? I just dont see how no one from the original Vault-Tec elite didnt have a spot in a vault somewhere. It just doesnt make any sense that this business, which stands to gain from WW3, wouldnt actually plan for it themselves. I mean, they would have a total monopoly when everything was settled top-side.

Their Vault was the one in LA, the demonstration Vault. Yes, the HQ was in Washington, but I didn't really see the CEO's office anywhere.

-The Brotherhood of Steel being out east.
This is actually explained through Fallout Tactics. There was a split in the BoS at one point. It also explains that the BOS moved east in blimps, some of which crashed in the mid-west. So there could actually be BoS derivatives strewn all across the USA. Since this game is centered around the BoS, I consider it to be the bible when it comes to that faction. Also, it was made by Interplay... the original source of Falloutey goodness.

FUCK NO.

FOT has been discarded as NON-CANON, even by Bethesda. Only high profile events (a rogue division in Chicago, possibly the robots) are considered to have happened.

-Vampires?!?!?!?!?
Seriously. This is a cheesy attempt to attract the Goth community to a game that SHOULD be a damn pheremone to them anyways. Axe em!

Plasma, Laser or Flamer?

-Dad snuck into... and then up and left the Vault?
Doesnt make sense. I havent finished the main quest yet, but its already looking flimsy at best. Just once, I would like to see you choose the actual goal of a game. Fallout always seemed like the best vehicle or this. Perhaps, at some point in child-hood, your actions determine what your main quest will be. Maybe you just want to be a selfish bastard with a harem full of slave girls. Perhaps you want to be a ruthless wasteland warlord. Maybe you want to find all of the GECKS and be the second-coming. Or... perhaps... you want to get on a boat and get the hell out of the US entirely in hopes of finding someplace green. Micronesia anyone? for that matter, why wasnt Micronesia explained in F02? the enclave had airplanes... couldnt they have checked to see if it was still green? They would have known it existed... im sure someone in the Enclave had a fucking globe!!!!!

Supposedly the Vault was opened in the past, but the wasteland was so horrible it was decided that it should be sealed forever.

-The origins of the war.
STOP!!!!! For god sakes stop! Some things are better left a mystery! I didnt want to know that China invaded Alaska. And the motivation doesnt make sense either! They wanted oil? FOR WHAT?!?!?! The world has fusion batteries that can power cars! What in the fuck do you need oil for?!?!? Im just going to blame this one on all you moose-molesting bastards out there to make myself feel better. Thats right... Alaskans... this is ALL YOUR FAULT!

Did you actually play Fallout? And do you actually understand how much the global economy isn dependant on oil and it's derivatives?

-Aliens?
*shakes his head no and walks away*

Again, was in original Fallout.

-No tehcnological innovation at all.
I understand that these inventions would be difficult, but do you mean to tell me there hasnt been any improvement in firearms technology in 200 years? Given that guns are a major part of life, I simply cant believe that no one out there has found a way to make guns more efficient. I also dislike the complete lack of squad based machine guns such as the Browning automatic rifle in WW2 or the modern SAW (squad automatic weapon?). the fact that we jump from assault rifles to mini-guns with nothing in between is just plain silly.

Oh for fuck's sake. The Miniguns ARE THE SAWS OF THE FALLOUT WORLD.

-Insane reload times on missile weapons.
They reload too fast. Even today, these weapons are designed to be used by two people. One firing, and one loading. One person could not possibly reload a weapon that heavy in 4 seconds. Especially not while still moving around.

Now you're going too extreme. It's a 2077 missile launcher designed to be man-portable.

-Only two followers
Even Fallout 2 had more choices than that. I guess no one wants to hang out with the guy who can off 100 super mutants all by himself. Kind of stupid though... that would be EXACTLY the friend I would want to have in a nuclear wasteland.

Hehe.

-No pure dialog win.
Its a nuclear wasteland. Get used to the fact that there are hundreds of violent meanies out there. If this is an option, it should be EXTREMELY INSANELY difficult to pull off.

Damn right. Join the Enclave and negotiate a peace.
 
Patton89 said:
pizzathehut said:
I feel your pain on the Tenpenny thing, but the paper is just nitpickery. There were posters and such in FO2. Its quite funny to see everyone bash Bethesda for the same things Interplay did years ago. This includes wooden houses, trees, paper, electronics still working, insane amounts of ammo/loot for a nuclear wasteland, etc. If you cant accept these things now in FO3, then please send me your copy of FO2 because my dog tore the crap out of mine.

Poster were explainable as there were plenty of trees, and from trees you can make paper. And there were advanced settlements, NCR for an example.
Wooden houses were lived in, they weren't abandoned ala fallout 3. And there were trees so theres wood. People could maintain the wooden houses and rebuild them. Electronics worked in reasonable places, like the NCR, VC or San Fran, places that HAD the technology and electricity. Not in Den, or klamath, but in fallout 3 there were computers in almost perfect shape in the middle of nowhere UNMAINTAINED. Oh yeah, just like Fallout 2.
And the loot part, if you play the game on hard/normal, you won't get that much stuff. ammo is scarse, and its not in every damn abandoned building. Take gauss guns as an example, the ammo is hard to get. In fallout 3 you can easily get the mini nukes, hell theres one near starting area if i remember correctly. Yeah no difference at all.

Edit: removed useless lines

San Fran is a major navy staging area and would have been wiped clean in a nuclear assault. The entire Eastern sea board would be a HUGE target for any attack to disable and nuetralize the US navy. The point is still valid. Nit-picking that houses wouldnt be standing when we are already accepting that Washington DC and San Francisco wouldnt be completely vaporized is rediculous. Thats like eating a piece of crap, but spitting out the bits of corn stuck in it.

Fallout 2 had insane amounts of ammo. Simply drive from vendor to vendor and buy everything they had until you had the trunk of your car loaded to the gills. Be careful about the pack rat glitch though :P.
 
pizzathehut said:
San Fran is a major navy staging area and would have been wiped clean in a nuclear assault. The entire Eastern sea board would be a HUGE target for any attack to disable and nuetralize the US navy. The point is still valid. Nit-picking that houses wouldnt be standing when we are already accepting that Washington DC and San Francisco wouldnt be completely vaporized is rediculous. Thats like eating a piece of crap, but spitting out the bits of corn stuck in it.

Fallout 2 had insane amounts of ammo. Simply drive from vendor to vendor and buy everything they had until you had the trunk of your car loaded to the gills. Be careful about the pack rat glitch though :P.

Your assuming that San Fran wouldn't be livable after 200+ years ? Come on. Most of chernobyl is usable already. And your assuming that San fran is still main US naval base. And what oil and uranium does the navy use ? they were scarse already, i really think that navy was already busy in china.No need to stage anything , the war had already begun. You really think DC and San Fran are of same strategic and symbolic value ?
Again, this wasn't problem UNTILL end game. Mid to beginning ammo was scarse, as caps were needed to get forward as a good guy.
 
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