For all the good worldbuilding they did, the FNV team dropped the ball a bit while making the Legion

[ElloinmorninJ]

The Legion was made to unappealing and cartoonishly evil, even by the standards of the post-nuclear world, to make them a logical choice for anyone too pick, not to mention that the political structure they were given made them a basically doomed society.

1. The Misogyny thing, as others have stated before me, was overdone. The whole “all women are inferior subhumans useful only to do menial slave labor and baby-making” thing made them seem like rapist incels, making them *extremely* undesirable as a faction. The NCR, for all it’s faults, is at least somewhat egalitarian.

2. They’re very clearly doomed within the near future, as visible from what we see with Caesar’s court. Edward Sallow is the only thing keeping the Legion together, without him, Lanius, Vulpes, and maybe Lucius or Aurelius will likely break-off, vy for power, and crumble the Legion into infighting within a decade or so.

 

[Morgan_]

The Legion was made to unappealing and cartoonishly evil, even by the standards of the post-nuclear world, to make them a logical choice for anyone too pick, not to mention that the political structure they were given made them a basically doomed society.

fucking TRUE

 

[Atomic Postman]

I still think the Legion are good worldbuilding. They could do with better depth and development, but what's already there is still a cool faction that really meaningfully adds to the Fallout world.

Despite the fact I'd side with the Railroad or the Minutemen 10 out of 10 times over the Legion, I still think the Legion are better worldbuilding than either of those.

 

[Sicknessoverload]

Is this where people who hate the Legion hang out?

 

[DarkCorp]

Obsidian was also short on time so they did what they could. If given more time, I am sure the legion could have been expanded lore wise.

 

[Risewild]

They cut a lot of Legion content because of running out of time. The Legion was supposed to be more greyi-sh than the full evil represented in the game's release.

It's what happens when a game studio bites more than they can chew. But we still got one of the best RPGs in that style ever made, so I don't really care.

 

[megamike15]

i just had this thought of if we see 1 , 2 and nv as a trilogy villain wise the legion feels like a downgrade from the master's army and the enclave.

we went from a prewar American army to a bunch of raiders.

 

[Deleted member 98605]

But what do you offer as alternative? We can't change the past. IMO every Legion mod fucks it up a little bit too much at best (absolutely flooring the South-East) or makes them laughable at worst (wearing movie armor stuff). What would you have done, in the words of best Suburbian Mom Gayle?

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

But what do you offer as alternative? We can't change the past. IMO every Legion mod fucks it up a little bit too much at best (absolutely flooring the South-East) or makes them laughable at worst (wearing movie armor stuff). What would you have done, in the words of best Suburbian Mom Gayle?

Well there are some little changes that could be made, such as using Brahmin as pack mules, or at least male slaves, as opposed to having female slaves hauling backpacks twice their size just to show how stupidly misogynistic the legion is. Showing more male slaves in general would be a plus. Not every male is fit to be a soldier, or can be trusted with access to weapons.

But not much about the legion needs to be changed, it’s just that more needs to be added. We need a legion town to show what life is like under the legion for those who aren’t slaves or slave-soldiers. Caesar himself should talk more about his plan for new vegas, and how exactly he will go about modernizing the legion without causing them to lose their edge that makes them so successful (and brutal).

One particular idea I had was to show a crucified legion soldier, maybe even a relatively high ranking one. He would’ve been accused of groping a Priestess, and therefore sentenced to agonizing death. This would show that the legion actual affords respect to at least some of their women, such as the high ranking priestess class. Sure, you can rape a slave as much as you like, but harming a free woman would not be tolerated. And if this particular legion soldier was higher ranking, like a veteran or decanus, then it would show that the legion, for all its faults, has very little corruption. Everyone is equal under the law (the law being Caesar), regardless of their rank (slaves would be an obvious exception).

(Then again, Caesar, being the pragmatic type, would probably give his higher ranking warriors a pass for stuff like this, especially considering that they are currently fighting the biggest war they’ve ever fought)

 

[Dayglow Drifter]

It's pretty much widely acknowledged that a lot of the planned Legion content that portrays more of it's nuance was cut due to time stuff.

 

[DarkCorp]

Caesar already mentions thar legion brutality isn't desirable nor a permanent policy. He views it as a necessity for pacification of the competition and to create a united identity not based on tribalism and petty rivalry.

A very good way would be a sneak peak into already established and stable legion settlements. One where slave labor and violence is not a priority due to being a battleground like NV.

 

[Atomic Postman]

(Then again, Caesar, being the pragmatic type, would probably give his higher ranking warriors a pass for stuff like this, especially considering that they are currently fighting the biggest war they’ve ever fought)

Yeah I was about to say, I think lashings would probably be more appropriate rather than culling valuable veterans.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

Yeah I was about to say, I think lashings would probably be more appropriate rather than culling valuable veterans.

Yeah, that would make much more sense. Still, a scene showing a centurion being whipped for disrespecting a priestess would go a long way towards showing the legion as less one-dimensionally misogynistic, and would show a female player character it is possible for her to achieve rank and respect within the legion.

 

[Atomic Postman]

Yeah, that would make much more sense. Still, a scene showing a centurion being whipped for disrespecting a priestess would go a long way towards showing the legion as less one-dimensionally misogynistic, and would show a female player character it is possible for her to achieve rank and respect within the legion.

I've said it a thousand times before but the Legion's women (non-slaves) should have been like brainwashed internally oppressed North Koreans. They, alongside the young men, believe it is their greatest objective in life to serve the Mighty Caesar with their lives as best as possible. For young men this is giving their life in millitary service, for women this is teaching, healing, preaching and birthing children. To the Legion women aren't inferior, all are equally inferior to Caesar, they simply have a different role to play in thier life service. This being told to you by a woman would sell it a little better I think.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

I've said it a thousand times before but the Legion's women (non-slaves) should have been like brainwashed internally oppressed North Koreans. They, alongside the young men, believe it is their greatest objective in life to serve the Mighty Caesar with their lives as best as possible. For young men this is giving their life in millitary service, for women this is teaching, healing, preaching and birthing children. To the Legion women aren't inferior, all are equally inferior to Caesar, they simply have a different role to play in thier life service. This being told to you by a woman would sell it a little better I think.

A pro-Legion counterpart to Siri would have been interesting.

 

[Deleted member 98605]

Here's another ball dropped.

Jacobstown.

What a gods damn letdown.

If only we could had recruited Marcus and Jacobstown for one last go at the battle....

I never went back up there until New Vegas Bounties and that was in the woods, not the town itself

Like, in a pro-NCR run, this reaffirms the status of mutants as being valuable citizens and people in the NCR

In the status of the legion, they recognize the mutants begrudngily, though its a fragile alliance and they're pushed to the wastes, but left a bit alone

A free NV or House could extend a sort of municipality status.
Recognizing them as a free, sovereign town with custody or cooperative over the mountain and area to Area 51, guarding the roads, pointing mutants to it.

 

[MasterworkStone]

The way I see it, the Legion we see in the game is a perfect representation of how the Legion is everywhere else, their settlements might be a little bit better but not by much.

Caesar's Legion is made up of tribal and raider gangs that Caesar conquered, all they know is violence and obedience, their violence and brutality is frequently rewarded, so they see little reason to act any less barbaric around others.
Even Caesar admits that the way his legion currently is is not ideal for what he wanted, he wanted a society more akin to Rome in it's prime, but the problem is that Caesar himself, Edward Sallow, is the only one in the society he has created who understands what his true goal with the whole thing was, and he knows this.

A good example of just how badly things have gone with Edward's plan for his legion is the things the Legion considers "taboo", take their stance on modern medicine for instance, even when Caesar knows there's something wrong with his body, he has no one to turn to in the Legion, the closest thing to medicine he can get are herbal remedies.
Maybe some of the tribes he conquered must consider things like stim packs and med-x to be evil, and their ideals spread within the Legion, or perhaps he tried to prevent his people from becoming chem addicts and they took it too far, but either way it's out of his control, like most things are in his legion.

It's my feeling that he frequently lies to himself about how his legion, he deep down he knows that it's completely fucked, that the moment he's out of the picture the whole thing is going to tear itself apart.
He does what he can to hopefully prevent it, but both the player and Edward himself know that the Legion's ways are too hard-coded in to how they think, at the most there will be a splinter group that thinks more akin to what Edward wanted but they'll still only be a splinter, most groups will remain violent barbarians.

When people describe Caesar's Legion as "cartoonishly evil", I see that as a good thing, that means that you're getting the right vibe from the game's writing.

 

[Deleted member 98605]

The way I see it, the Legion we see in the game is a perfect representation of how the Legion is everywhere else, their settlements might be a little bit better but not by much.

Caesar's Legion is made up of tribal and raider gangs that Caesar conquered, all they know is violence and obedience, their violence and brutality is frequently rewarded, so they see little reason to act any less barbaric around others.
Even Caesar admits that the way his legion currently is is not ideal for what he wanted, he wanted a society more akin to Rome in it's prime, but the problem is that Caesar himself, Edward Sallow, is the only one in the society he has created who understands what his true goal with the whole thing was, and he knows this.

A good example of just how badly things have gone with Edward's plan for his legion is the things the Legion considers "taboo", take their stance on modern medicine for instance, even when Caesar knows there's something wrong with his body, he has no one to turn to in the Legion, the closest thing to medicine he can get are herbal remedies.
Maybe some of the tribes he conquered must consider things like stim packs and med-x to be evil, and their ideals spread within the Legion, or perhaps he tried to prevent his people from becoming chem addicts and they took it too far, but either way it's out of his control, like most things are in his legion.

It's my feeling that he frequently lies to himself about how his legion, he deep down he knows that it's completely fucked, that the moment he's out of the picture the whole thing is going to tear itself apart.
He does what he can to hopefully prevent it, but both the player and Edward himself know that the Legion's ways are too hard-coded in to how they think, at the most there will be a splinter group that thinks more akin to what Edward wanted but they'll still only be a splinter, most groups will remain violent barbarians.

When people describe Caesar's Legion as "cartoonishly evil", I see that as a good thing, that means that you're getting the right vibe from the game's writing.

And I think people seeded the idea that the Legion 'needs' to be nuanced because the other factions are too, too much.
The legion is Nuanced already.

In their turf, there are no monsters. No raiders. Commerce can flow. Sure tech and meds might be restricted but stimpacks are already just broc flowers and xander roots, and sure women might be restricted but honestly out there in the wilds women might had been little more than common breeding stock for some tribes already.

That's the legion. Like Raul says, Two-Sun and all that used to be hell-ridden crimeholes. Now they're rough bastions of safety. These guys go out there and flush out Deathclaws and Cazadors and who knows what else, just to keep their skills sharp. They destroy and press every raider gang, every little shit.

All being in Legion turf would do is show how society could be, free of raiders, free of monsters. Farmers and sons work, daughters and wives are in the home, trade flows. There are a Virgin or so sisterhood that teaches, and maybe even Roman-esque Architecture is coming back, but that's it. There might be 'freely associated' or vassal towns where things are different when the Legion isn't making a port of call but not much else.

Take it or leave it. It's just of course, coming from a civilization more like the NCR, we see the legion as a step down, but to the region, the Legion was a step up. And I think while Caesar knows it may be a one-trick/one-life pony, he might be a little proud with himself all the same.

 

[Hardboiled Android]

The case against the Legion is, in my opinion, vastly overstated.

Are the Legion clearly bad guys? Yeah, no shit. But guess what? There are plenty of peoples, civilizations, and societies who to our narrow sensibilities, constrained by time, space, and context, would seem without any shadow of a doubt to be evil. The Aztecs were a cannibal empire, driven by superstition to constantly war with and enslave their neighbors to provide sacrifices to sate the bloodlust of malevolent gods. The Assyrians pioneered genocide, wiping out entire societies and drawing the ire of the whole civilized world - if you believe certain writers, they even drew the anger of the big man upstairs. I don't think I really need to say much about the Nazis.

Even the Romans on whom the Legion is based, for all their accomplishments (which deserve our accolades) lived in a hellish prtofascist state that conducted several genocides that might be called holocausts in there efforts to build an empire, not to mention the often horrific existence even as a citizen of Rome when the Pax Romana was not in effect, as was more often than not the case.

And yet, in all of these, there were some set of factors explaining why they rose, why people supported them, and even some set of virtues. They had reasons why they did the things they did, which even if alien and monstrous to our sensibilities, are comprehensible. But they are none the less "bad guys" by any reasonable measure.

I think the line of criticism that "The Legion is too evil!" ironically derives from one of the earliest pro-New Vegas anti-Fo3 lines of argument, in the real early days when people why trying to figure out what made New Vegas good and Fallout 3 bad. What people pointed to often was "moral greyness" as the term of art, because every faction had problems and good points, whereas in Fo3 we see a contrived morality play between a saintly Brotherhood and a diabolic Enclave, with no input or choice on the player's part. It was also probably influenced by the trend of gritty and edgy films and games in the late 2000s and early 2010s, where the lines between good and evil were not clear.

But the term moral greyness took on a life of its own, and it became conflated with both sides being depicted essentially equally - the lines between good and evil being blurred. Applying this newfound logic, New Vegas's Legion becomes bad, because they are clearly worse than either NCR or House.

But this isn't the proper standard to apply! "Moral greyness" results in boring hellworlds most of the time that are utterly uninteresting, not to mention contrived and unrealistic.

 

[Dayglow Drifter]

All this talk of DLC-style mods in The Frontier thread has me thinking that a world space where a Legion settlement is a hub and the area around is an explorable world space would be pretty cool to play.