For Americans- Is Torture acceptable?

[Gonzalez]

What if torture is not about getting information, but about repressing resistance through fear.

Okay, I have to say something here.

During the seventies and beginning of the eighties there was here In Argentina a military dictatorship that had an anti-communist doctrine promoted by the US during the cold war.

The armed forces systematically kidnapped tortured and murdered all communist subversive suspects (note the word 'suspects'). This is an infamous page in the Argentinean history, and we have learnt to never (and I mean never) allow this to happen again, perusing even today those responsible for these acts.

The dictatorship used fear to the point that no one wanted to be involved with anyone suspect of being subversive nor posses any 'subversive' books (or what was considered to be subversive). Subversive became another word for criminal, and anyone arrested (kidnapped, more like) by the armed forces, subversive or not, was believed to have "done something" whatever that something was.

The armed forces tortured everyone they captured being them in possession or not of any information that could lead to the capture and extermination of any possible subversive.

All of the kidnapped were tortured to the point of having to use resuscitation techniques when they had heart attacks in order to keep them alive for further torture and interrogation. After they were finished they were killed and the bodies disposed.

This said, I have to say that I am against all kind of torture for whatever the reason, mark my words. The use of torture is infamous and barbaric.

I don't know what specific special case might or might not be justified, I openly oppose to torture.

 

[Aktins Diet]

What if torture is not about getting information, but about repressing resistance through fear.

Okay, I have to say something here.

During the seventies and beginning of the eighties there was here In Argentina a military dictatorship that had an anti-communist doctrine promoted by the US during the cold war.

The armed forces systematically kidnapped tortured and murdered all communist subversive suspects (note the word 'suspects'). This is an infamous page in the Argentinean history, and we have learnt to never (and I mean never) allow this to happen again, perusing even today those responsible for these acts.

The dictatorship used fear to the point that no one wanted to be involved with anyone suspect of being subversive nor posses any 'subversive' books (or what was considered to be subversive). Subversive became another word for criminal, and anyone arrested (kidnapped, more like) by the armed forces, subversive or not, was believed to have "done something" whatever that something was.

The armed forces tortured everyone they captured being them in possession or not of any information that could lead to the capture and extermination of any possible subversive.

All of the kidnapped were tortured to the point of having to use resuscitation techniques when they had heart attacks in order to keep them alive for further torture and interrogation. After they were finished they were killed and the bodies disposed.

This said, I have to say that I am against all kind of torture for whatever the reason, mark my words. The use of torture is infamous and barbaric.

I don't know what specific special case might or might not be justified, I openly oppose to torture.

Well my friend, i dont know why you cant see that we are still very barbaric. Look at us! Man, we rape, kill, (still in wars) threaten, pick on, segergrate, torture, poison, damage, destroy, pollute, and commit genocide.

WELLCOME TO THE HUMAN RACE.

THats life for us. WE are ruthless, mean, killing, reasonable creature. We are, (and what it looks like) and always will be like this.

lol fight fire with fire. Cause kindness and turning the other cheek wont work.
________________________________

Now to welsh, and your clarity:
YES, and NO.
yes in the terms of justice. ex:
1) rape
2) stealing (large degree or contant stealing)
3) Murder
4) Terrorism
5) Bussinesses that steal from us.

these 5 things we should use torture on to set an example to those who wish to do the same. In other words, put fear in the public. FOR GOD SAKES, DISPLAY THE TORTURE TO. That way all those freaks see what it is like to do harm to others.

BUT, anything else would be a NO, like for political gain or corprate gain.
So, governments should use torture as a tool to drive fear into the public, for justice reasons ONLY.
(of course, there will be ways around this to, they will find it.)

 

[Adz]

wow.

I guess the human race is the way it is because of attitudes like yours...

*shakes his head*

What you're saying sounds alot like how life in iraq sounded under saddam housain. Maybe people should work to make "human nature" better rather than accepting it as it is.

Sometimes I can't beleive what I hear/read from some people.

 

[welsh]

Yep, Adz that's my thinking as well.

I mean, based on this, why take Saddam out of power at all? I am sure he would prefer to be our lackey dog than dead, and he's got experience in repressive tactics, and he keeps the country run and may even get us oil.

Afterall, if you are after stopping evil, than is doing evil the way to go?

Atkins is raising that old question- do the ends justify the means. Of course the problem is- what if your means corrupt your ends?

Even if we accept Atkins notion that we're a barbaric people, is that the level we should aspire for? If so, than there is not problem with using terror.

If, on the otherhand, you aim for a more humane society are you best served through inhumane means?

Arguably, one might call it idealism to think that the human race can rise out of it's own barbaric nature. But perhaps barbarism needs to be balanced with our humanity and civility. Perhaps we need to consider our aspirations.

 

[Aktins Diet]

Yep, Adz that's my thinking as well.

I mean, based on this, why take Saddam out of power at all? I am sure he would prefer to be our lackey dog than dead, and he's got experience in repressive tactics, and he keeps the country run and may even get us oil.

Afterall, if you are after stopping evil, than is doing evil the way to go?

Atkins is raising that old question- do the ends justify the means. Of course the problem is- what if your means corrupt your ends?

Even if we accept Atkins notion that we're a barbaric people, is that the level we should aspire for? If so, than there is not problem with using terror.

If, on the otherhand, you aim for a more humane society are you best served through inhumane means?

Arguably, one might call it idealism to think that the human race can rise out of it's own barbaric nature. But perhaps barbarism needs to be balanced with our humanity and civility. Perhaps we need to consider our aspirations.

Ah, this is the question of all questions. Very well written my friend. And this part:

Atkins is raising that old question- do the ends justify the means. Of course the problem is- what if your means corrupt your ends?

Is very true. My "idealism" seems logical, based on human history, but before trying it, I think we should exhaust every last strategical option to solve the dilemma of societies way of disciplining bad behavior before trying this out. (We almost have) If we could just open people's eyes, then everything would be fine.

IF only people were like everyone who has posted here
IF only the human race did not strive for perfection by destruction
IF only the human race was our goal, not personal success.
IF only people thought of others
IF only every mind was not corrupted
IF we were not so cruel and self destructive

IF, IF, IF. But the sad story is all these things do go on, and thus, as we strive for perfection, we only become more corrupt and evil.

The question here is, should we pursue the course of barbaric behavior and see if "fire fighting fire" will heal us? Or will it cause more problems.

Good write up welsh. Hopefully people will look at this harder.

 

[Elric]

Hey Atkins, you're really talkin crap to me... I really don't like what you are saying, but seen I'm a ruthless rabid motherfucker, maybe I should get you, put you in a dark garage for a month with only water and bread, then fry your testicles with electricity, cut off your ears, break all of your fingers and wake you every night telling you I'm going to rape, torture and kill your family.

And then I would tell you: "This is life, welcome to it".

Would you like it? You probably would, ain't too bright are you?

So, humans are assholes, and we have to accept it, and even tell ourselves it might be useful? Fuck you, I say NO! If you really think this is what we are, life just ain't worth living, but I think some of us can try and make the difference, though the masses will always try to stop them... by the way, you sound a lot like an indoctrinated cog of the system: afraid, remissive, narrow-minded.
There can be a better world and better humans, if we commit ourselves, look at what Gandhi accomplished. It might not look like much to you, but it's a lot, really. Wake up buddy, we ain't no potatos!

 

[Aktins Diet]

Hey Atkins, you're really talkin crap to me... I really don't like what you are saying, but seen I'm a ruthless rabid motherfucker, maybe I should get you, put you in a dark garage for a month with only water and bread, then fry your testicles with electricity, cut off your ears, break all of your fingers and wake you every night telling you I'm going to rape, torture and kill your family.

And then I would tell you: "This is life, welcome to it".

Would you like it? You probably would, ain't too bright are you?

So, humans are assholes, and we have to accept it, and even tell ourselves it might be useful? Fuck you, I say NO! If you really think this is what we are, life just ain't worth living, but I think some of us can try and make the difference, though the masses will always try to stop them... by the way, you sound a lot like an indoctrinated cog of the system: afraid, remissive, narrow-minded.
There can be a better world and better humans, if we commit ourselves, look at what Gandhi accomplished. It might not look like much to you, but it's a lot, really. Wake up buddy, we ain't no potatos!

*ignores the insults, and turns the other cheek*
My firend, if only poeple did exactly what you do, then we would not be here talking.
If people could stand up and do just that.
the thing is, we dont.
And I am talking about the human race as a whole.
There are always execptions. (Everyone posting here seems to prove that)

So if you took offence, I apologize.

 

[Gonzalez]

In Argentina we are not only against torture, but we see that anyone that commits atrocities like those go to jail for it. And we are still fighting, with manifestations and requests to our supreme court to put in jail all of those who were involved, and we managed to put in jail a good deal of them. We do not neither accept torture today, there are many the ones in jail for crimes of kidnap and torture. If you are found guilty of those crimes in Argentina you are going to fall. The public opinion about torture here is not light neither, and none of our government or institutions commit nor allow torture.

Does that makes us week? Hell no! We are going to defend ourselves against any aggression, only we are not going to fall as down as the aggressors. That has been proven because we made fall a dictatorship that based itself in torture and fear, and we did it ourselves without the need of torture or fear.

 

[Aktins Diet]

In Argentina we are not only against torture, but we see that anyone that commits atrocities like those go to jail for it. And we are still fighting, with manifestations and requests to our supreme court to put in jail all of those who were involved, and we managed to put in jail a good deal of them. We do not neither accept torture today, there are many the ones in jail for crimes of kidnap and torture. If you are found guilty of those crimes in Argentina you are going to fall. The public opinion about torture here is not light neither, and none of our government or institutions commit nor allow torture.

Does that makes us week? Hell no! We are going to defend ourselves against any aggression, only we are not going to fall as down as the aggressors. That has been proven because we made fall a dictatorship that based itself in torture and fear, and we did it ourselves without the need of torture or fear.

And tell me firend, how did your people over throw the dictatorship?

 

[Elric]

Atkins, I am the one who must apologize for over reacting, sincerely.
But the situation here in Italy is keeping me very edgy... I hear strange things about the acceptance of violence, the unavoidability of oppression ant many other topics in the same line.
What I can't understand, really, is why we must consider a good thing to accept every compromise we face. I'm not saying we should rebel against everything for simple spirit of contradiction, but I'm very pessimistic about most political choices made in the last few years by the govs of the "first world", as I am worried for the direction taken by the economy and its means, as I am concerned with religious fanatism, etc...
Don't take me for a maniac, but I can see society slowly drifting towards a manichean situation, that is things are either black or white, nothing in between.
It's not the actual situation, but what (I guess) the rich & powerful want us to believe, so that they may draw us on their side while keeping us peaceful and using us for their purposes against "evil".
I'm not sure I explained the whole matter clearly enough, sorry, I'm a bit in a hurry.

 

[welsh]

Nice of you to apologize Elric.

But Atkins I think that Elric and Gonzales are arguing based on the fact that their countries did go through periods where torture or terrorism were sanctioned by the state.

Italy used terrorism as part of it's campaign against the Red Brigade, Argentina has suffered periods of brutality throughout much of the last century, and there are other cases in which countries have fought terrorism. There is a track record out there which should give notice of what works and what doesn't.

It's remarkable that people are not comparing the US war against terrorism to other campaigns against terrorism fought by US allies.
Spain vs ETA, Italy vs. the Red Brigade, Britian against the IRA.

The experience of these countries should be weighed in before the US begins to think about revising it's notions of torture.

 

[Aktins Diet]

Nice of you to apologize Elric.

But Atkins I think that Elric and Gonzales are arguing based on the fact that their countries did go through periods where torture or terrorism were sanctioned by the state.

Italy used terrorism as part of it's campaign against the Red Brigade, Argentina has suffered periods of brutality throughout much of the last century, and there are other cases in which countries have fought terrorism. There is a track record out there which should give notice of what works and what doesn't.

It's remarkable that people are not comparing the US war against terrorism to other campaigns against terrorism fought by US allies.
Spain vs ETA, Italy vs. the Red Brigade, Britian against the IRA.

The experience of these countries should be weighed in before the US begins to think about revising it's notions of torture.

True, But I am tlaking about torture is good for justice. (not against terrorism, though, we do it anyways)

If a little girl gets raped, and its a first timer, cut his balls off and just give him torture for 1 day (Not bloody torture) See how quick people will change. Look back 60 years ago. The moment children or adults broke the rules, they were wipped. The wipping made a man out of many.

I still belive in the same barbaric system that has helped soiety before. If a murder happens, kill the killer, but torture him, then bradcast the hanging on the news. It will drive the fear in to those who might break the law, and re-inforce it in people like you and me.

And hang the bastards who do corprate and political crimes. They will never change anyways.

Trying to iliminate A group or terrorists is a whole diffrent story. U see, that gets in the line of War.

And here is where my barbaric ways come in again.

First off, in war, you dont care about civillins, you care about defeating the enemy by all means nessisary. Torture included. Sorry, but it has worked in the past, and I belive in it. (remember, opions do not make up a persons charcter, only there actions do that.)

O and Eric, its ok. Thx for turning the leaf. U see, I belive that if given the chance, people tend to show the better side of themselves, and are really cool people. Thats why I talk with everyone, no matter how they look, or treat me. Cause when it comes down to it, life is short ans sweet, enjoy it while you can.
So like I said, its no biggy.

O and welsh, thx again for stepping in again. Now I can see why you are an admin.

Ps: Sorry if there is spelling errors, but I have to go anytime now, so sorry.

 

[Gonzalez]

The way you think is the way those murdering bastards that governed my country think, and it makes me sick.

I refuse to believe there is a better approach to solve problems than the use of terror. If there is a raper, separate him from society, put him in a prison (that is punishment already, considering the conditions of those who are in jail, and even considering some would prefer death to jail), try to determinate the problem of why these things happen and try to seek a way to avoid it.

By the use of violence and terror what you are making is the criminal to think: who cares, they are going to cut my balls off anyways so I will keep raping since I already did it once, and if the police is after me I will resist arrest and get killed before get caught. That way you put more people in danger.

Why don't better try to save people from poverty, give them a better education so they can have a chance to live in society in a civilized way. That could be part of the solution.

But if we go to at the same level the raper is, then my friend, you are not any better than he is.

And tell me firend, how did your people over throw the dictatorship?

Well, basically by never stop fighting, and always do any possible thing to show they were wrong, with manifestations and protests, that even if repressed by the government the manifestations can create a state of instability in wich the government looses support, popularity and power of action to control the situations. In the Falklands war people used to go to "Plaza de Mayo" to support our troops and insult the dictators at the same time. All of this is perfectly understandable if you are familiar with the Hegemony process described by Raymond Williams, but judging by your intellect I suppose you are not, so I wont even waste time going to a history book to give you details.

But I will tell you this: There was a dictatorship before in wich the "Reorganization Process" the dictators planed did not even lasted half of the planed time before the government was forced to call upon elections. The last dictatorship was supposed to last indefinitely until the process was concreted, but they did not lasted much neither even taking all measures possible so that things like the "Cordobazo" that ended the previous dictatorship would not affect them, using violence and terror to accomplish this.

obviously to even begin to understand any of this you would have to be familiar with my country history wich you are NOT.

BTW: I wold never apologize a person like you about anything, so if I am being too rough with you about this, then I am glad.

 

[Aktins Diet]

BTW: I wold never apologize a person like you about anything, so if I am being too rough with you about this, then I am glad.

*sighs*

My friend, People's Opions do not shape a persons Charcter. Its that same resonce that has caused so many wars in our history.

Its the persons's ACTIONS that determin who they are and what type of charcter they have.

Take me for ex: I am a really nice guy who, when he notices everyone in a room is quiet, i will go and talk to them. Everyone. If a person is sitting all alone on the steps, I will sit down and talk with them for a while. I am that kind of person. I bring a smile on everyone. And yet, my beliefs are what I have said on this topic.

You see, dont hate or dislike someone for what the belive in, dislike them for who they are.

I have a friend who is a Natzi. He hates the jews. Though i disagree with his idea of them, I am still a friend of him cause he is a cool guy.

So, even though you are hostile to me, I am still treating you nicely. For I have turned the other cheek.

If you can not judge a person by who they are and not what they belive by now, then it is clear who is the more mature person.

I think thats enough said.

 

[KQX]

Take me for ex: I am a really nice guy who, when he notices everyone in a room is quiet, i will go and talk to them. Everyone. If a person is sitting all alone on the steps, I will sit down and talk with them for a while. I am that kind of person. I bring a smile on everyone. And yet, my beliefs are what I have said on this topic.

You see, dont hate or dislike someone for what the belive in, dislike them for who they are.

Ok, I can’t take this anymore. Atkins, stop vomiting. I honestly dislike you because of the actions you just described. Did you ever stop to think that maybe that guy on the stairs doesn’t want to talk to anyone? I know I defiantly wouldn’t want to talk to some asshole that thinks he’s the nicest guy in the world because he approaches complete strangers and starts every other sentence with “my friend”. Actually, I would have to fight the urge to punch this person in the face.

 

[Big T]

My friend, People's Opions do not shape a persons Charcter. Its that same resonce that has caused so many wars in our history.

Actualy, I believe that you have that backwards there. A person's opinions do shape thier character, their expressed opinions are, in fact, the external representation of their character.

Its the persons's ACTIONS that determin who they are and what type of charcter they have.

A persons actions only affect their perceived charcter.

Aslo, what KQX said.

 

[Ashmo]

I love ye, Gonzalez.

::drops unconcious, spilling his last beer over the next best guy::

 

[uziel]

As a muslim myself I believe using terrorism or torture in the name of Allah is just hipocracy. Also being an American, I've grown up with ideals to live by, and I plan to live by them. Torture is not acceptable under any condition. I don't care if it's Osama Bin Laden that's being tortured. No matter what someone does, they're still a human being. Seems to me there's a lot of people who don't realize that.

 

[Aktins Diet]

Take me for ex: I am a really nice guy who, when he notices everyone in a room is quiet, i will go and talk to them. Everyone. If a person is sitting all alone on the steps, I will sit down and talk with them for a while. I am that kind of person. I bring a smile on everyone. And yet, my beliefs are what I have said on this topic.

You see, dont hate or dislike someone for what the belive in, dislike them for who they are.

Ok, I can’t take this anymore. Atkins, stop vomiting. I honestly dislike you because of the actions you just described. Did you ever stop to think that maybe that guy on the stairs doesn’t want to talk to anyone? I know I defiantly wouldn’t want to talk to some asshole that thinks he’s the nicest guy in the world because he approaches complete strangers and starts every other sentence with “my friend”. Actually, I would have to fight the urge to punch this person in the face.

So you hate kindness that much? (and I am talking about at school for the steps thing.)
LOL My FRIEND, are you jelous cause everyone else has a friend? Or is ti cause everyone else is my friend? You can be my friend if you want. I really think you should meet me in real life. Of course, there are some people like you who dont like me.

Like this one dude who is about as tall as me. He seems a lil spoiled (course he is american) and seems to have a chip on his sholder. When I asked him why was being so mean to me, and what did I do to him, eh replied:
"Cause your a fag, and you smile and talk to much."
I Guess you cant please everyone, so you got to please your self. (thats a song to, does anyone remember that song? )

Also, Once you turn your opions into actions, its no longer your opions, its actions. I belive there called values and moral values. (there is a fine line in between there, forgot all of it from last year)
Anyways, If I belived that all jews should die, then that is a value to me, and I i will follow it. But if I have just an opion, and dont insult or do any negitive action, then how can one say it is apart of a charcter?

Back to the subject at hand. uziel, I guess it is a matter of moral values. My opion is and eye for an eye. Yours can be diffrent. What I am trying to say is that I base my opins from the past. Wipping, hanging, (wipping is a form of torture) has worked well. As you can see now a days, with lots of that gone, many more problems have occured.

Right now as it stands this new form of "fair" treatment in the USA is not working. The jails are packed, people keep dong the smae old thing, etc.
Please show me a better way that WILL work. And I will change to that.

 

[Zaij]

LOL My FRIEND, are you jelous cause everyone else has a friend? Or is ti cause everyone else is my friend? You can be my friend if you want. I really think you should meet me in real life. Of course, there are some people like you who dont like me.

I call bullshit. Anyone who says that torture is OK, yet claims to be well liked, needs psychological evaluation. I also think someone should search your school locker for a weapon. I don't think you're as well liked as you claim, unless your school consists of 3 people, and they're all related to you.

Like this one dude who is about as tall as me. He seems a lil spoiled (course he is american) and seems to have a chip on his sholder. When I asked him why was being so mean to me, and what did I do to him, eh replied:
"Cause your a fag, and you smile and talk to much."

I'm sure his height is someone how relevent, but I can't see how. Get this into your head. Wherever you go, there will be always be someone that doesn't like you. I don't think you smile everywhere you go, and I think that you're trying to come off as a nice guy so that people will find your notion of torture more acceptable. It won't.

Also, Once you turn your opions into actions, its no longer your opions, its actions. I belive there called values and moral values. (there is a fine line in between there, forgot all of it from last year)

I'm not sure what opions are, but I assume they are "opinions". Whether you act on your opinions (it's kind of the wrong word to use in this case), then they are still your opinions. The only difference is you've acted on them. For example, I have a deep hatred of feminists. I have the opinion that they all deserve to die. Whether I act on this or not, it's still my opinion

Anyways, If I belived that all jews should die, then that is a value to me, and I i will follow it. But if I have just an opion, and dont insult or do any negitive action, then how can one say it is apart of a charcter?

Because it will always influence the way you deal with Jews. Character is your underlying person, Personalities are what you wear - I can "wear" a personality of a jocular person, or I can "wear" a personality of a deep and moody person.

Back to the subject at hand. uziel, I guess it is a matter of moral values. My opion is and eye for an eye. Yours can be diffrent. What I am trying to say is that I base my opins from the past. Wipping, hanging, (wipping is a form of torture) has worked well. As you can see now a days, with lots of that gone, many more problems have occured.

Yes, they worked just fine in a society where they didn't have the same
a) population
b) understanding of psychology
c) technology

Fortunately, this isn't done anymore because of reasons that have been stated on this thread atleast half a dozen times, which you've ignored each time.

Right now as it stands this new form of "fair" treatment in the USA is not working. The jails are packed, people keep dong the smae old thing, etc.
Please show me a better way that WILL work. And I will change to that.

The jails are packed because of the way your government operates. If anything should be whipped, it's that.