Future of Military Aviation -- Robots?

[KillaKilla]

To me DREAD sounds very dubious. Jam-proof seams unresonable, if it wasn't overshadowed by the no recoil statement. If it's propelling something forward, especially at that speed, it should have recoil. Even if it couteracts that recoil, it's still there.

I'm especially suspicious when the contact information is partially scribbled over.

 

[SimpleMinded]

mmm... to shoot 120,000 rounds per minute... you'd have to have 120,000 rounds of ammo correct? And once you get to a certain point... aren't you just hitting dead meat over and over again or a blown up tank... i mean thats... what 2000 bullets every second? How fast can it rotate to fire those bullets in different directions?

 

[Corpse]

Apart from what I have found on Defense Review and other sources, I have very little info on the DREAD.

Based on what I have read about it though, I can justify the lack of recoil as the projectiles are being propelled by the force of the spinning centrifuge. The velocities achieved by the projectiles however is the one thing I am dubious about.

And no, you don't need to have 120,000 rounds of ammo to fire at that rate, all this means is the projectiles are being fired at 1/1000th of a second. That is very impressive considering Metal Storm weapons like the VLE can achieve half that rate through a single barrel, using no moving parts.
The advantage of Metal Storm systems though is in the variable number of barrels it employs which can boost its rate of fire beyond 1 million rpm.

You can see more about the varied Metal Storm applications on their introduction video clip, its about 82Mb but well worth watching.

 

[Colt]

This "DREAD weapons system" looks like total BS to me. I've never seen that video before but I'm not impressed at all.

Here was a fairly large discussion on it at a forum I visit that's full of technically-minded types: Hey Colt! Check this out... (Yes, they direct stuff like this at me for some reason)

My initial post:

I'm not sure where to begin. This thing would, as state above, have lots of gyro problems and this crap about it not being able to jam is pure fantasy. Any machine can jam. I'm pretty sure I know how it works but if this thing ever comes to be, it will probably only be in special applications much like the vaunted Metal Storm system.

Also, 5,000 RPM? That's an insane rate of fire unless the projectiles are very small. The MG 42 in WWII had a rate of fire just over 1000 RPM and it was very hard to control in short bursts and ate ammo like no other.

Putting dimples on a ball doese help keep it stable in flight but it's not going to be as good as spinning it and having it shaped like a spitzer round (pointed at one end and slightly curned at the other). There's a reason why we switched from musket balls to conical projectiles. 30 parts is also a pretty fair number of things that can break, especially on something that's going to be spinning insanely fast. - Colt

To further expand on that, and what others said in the above-linked thread, you would encounter insane gyroscopic problems. Unless there was some sort of massive power assist, a guy would not be able to turn this thing.

---

One of the main problems with the Metal Storm system is that if just won't fire, you have to discard the barrel or use a system like they have on the 40mm... The problem with that is that it will lead to more cost/weight/complexity especially if you make an automatic system for it. It would be more sensible to mount a Gatling gun that has mulitple barrels and feeds from an ammo chute. Less weight and a lot more feed capacity (thousands of rounds). - Colt

 

[4too]

Cold War Education

Cold War Education

... MG42 ...

A board gamer in the early '70's. if one went beyond the Avalon Hill, casual, level,
there were fascinating historical sources in the 'fan-zines' like "Strategy And Tactics".

WW2, Wehrmacht weapons' doctrine had an eery relevance. The Soviets.

Recall discourse on the MG series. The high rate of fire was retained for anti aircraft. Maybe 500 plus rpm was fudged, but I forget how, for infantry uses. Replacement barrels were 'bundled" with the ammo. Anticipating heat stress and certain to follow
wear / accuracy issues.

Yes, that part in ""Saving Private Ryan"" when the MG 42's were taken out had an added impact. Twenty or so years later, I 'knew' what the maneuver was based on. Heat stress of a high rate of fire weapon. Just one more intellectual hook to add to the already deep emotional grapplings of that 'movie'.

The high rate of fires cited above. The design rational, hosing an area so a target aircraft will 'fly' into a wall of projectiles, and, the quicker 'kill' , if your cloud of slugs echoes Forrest's attributed quote of the being ' first-est with the most-est'.



4too

 

[Corpse]

This "DREAD weapons system" looks like total BS to me. I've never seen that video before but I'm not impressed at all.

I've seen the video and was not greatly impressed by it, I was more surprised by the concept. If it works half as good as they claim it does (which is what I find doubtful), it could prove a useful innovation for certain specific applications.

Here was a fairly large discussion on it at a forum I visit that's full of technically-minded types: Hey Colt! Check this out... (Yes, they direct stuff like this at me for some reason)

My initial post:

I'm not sure where to begin. This thing would, as state above, have lots of gyro problems and this crap about it not being able to jam is pure fantasy. Any machine can jam. I'm pretty sure I know how it works but if this thing ever comes to be, it will probably only be in special applications much like the vaunted Metal Storm system.


Also, 5,000 RPM? That's an insane rate of fire unless the projectiles are very small. The MG 42 in WWII had a rate of fire just over 1000 RPM and it was very hard to control in short bursts and ate ammo like no other.

Actually they claim its 120,000rpm which I find highly doubtful; as I have mentioned before, metal storm weapons can achieve around 60,000rpm through a single barrel using no moving parts and all the bullets already in place. How this thing would reach double that rate of fire with an ammo feed system is beyond me.

Putting dimples on a ball doese help keep it stable in flight but it's not going to be as good as spinning it and having it shaped like a spitzer round (pointed at one end and slightly curned at the other). There's a reason why we switched from musket balls to conical projectiles. 30 parts is also a pretty fair number of things that can break, especially on something that's going to be spinning insanely fast. - Colt

I am aware of this, it was during the Spanish-American war that the disadvantages of round-nosed bullets were observed when US soldiers armed with .30-40 Kragg and .45-70 Springfield rifles were engaged by Mexicans armed with 7mm Spanish Mausers which used a spitzer round. That said, I don't see the projectiles having a very stable flight even if they reached the velocities that Trinamic Tech claims it does; though if the concept was employed in space, this would matter little.

To further expand on that, and what others said in the above-linked thread, you would encounter insane gyroscopic problems. Unless there was some sort of massive power assist, a guy would not be able to turn this thing.

Well, I don't think its intended to be an individual weapon system but a crew served, or vehicle mounted if it indeed exists.

One of the main problems with the Metal Storm system is that if just won't fire, you have to discard the barrel or use a system like they have on the 40mm... The problem with that is that it will lead to more cost/weight/complexity especially if you make an automatic system for it. It would be more sensible to mount a Gatling gun that has mulitple barrels and feeds from an ammo chute. Less weight and a lot more feed capacity (thousands of rounds). - Colt

Even with an automatic feed it would be nowhere as complex as a conventional mechanical design or an electric gatling gun, besides their UCAVs where intended to carry a huge array of pods each loaded and ready to fire; there would be no need to reload the UCAV until it lands after its mission, which is pretty much the case with UCAVs now when loading Air to Ground missiles or other ordinance.

Recall discourse on the MG series. The high rate of fire was retained for anti aircraft. Maybe 500 plus rpm was fudged, but I forget how, for infantry uses. Replacement barrels were 'bundled" with the ammo. Anticipating heat stress and certain to follow wear / accuracy issues.

Yes, the MG42 is the best machine gun design ever IMO; its rate of fire is around 1200rpm though it can be reduced to a more manageable rate of 900rpm with the addition of a buffer. (not sure if that is the case with the original 42 model but I know that is the case with the MG3).

Of course at its highest rate it would be hard to control greatly reducing accuracy and increasing ammo consumption, despite this the German army were willing to compromise because the increased fire volume delivered ensured a high hit probability which more than compensated for its reduced accuracy; also you have to consider the effects it had on troop morale, anyone faced with a weapon that sounds like a piece of machinery is going to be in for some brown trouser time.

 

[Colt]

Actually they claim its 120,000rpm which I find highly doubtful; as I have mentioned before, metal storm weapons can achieve around 60,000rpm through a single barrel using no moving parts and all the bullets already in place. How this thing would reach double that rate of fire with an ammo feed system is beyond me.

I think the idea is to just use a hopper or something since the projectiles would be round and roll down a tube.

Well, I don't think its intended to be an individual weapon system but a crew served, or vehicle mounted if it indeed exists.

No but compare just the size shown in the video to a normal MG that doesn't use as much ammo and has better weight to throw around and needs no exterior systems just to run, aim, or control it. Something that would be able to move a gyroscope of that size would require a large motor and gearing system and be mounted very well.

Even with an automatic feed it would be nowhere as complex as a conventional mechanical design or an electric gatling gun, besides their UCAVs where intended to carry a huge array of pods each loaded and ready to fire;

Feeding, loading, and unloading even 20mm chambers for those would run into the same problems of as an automatic cannon on a tank. Large, complex, and bulky. Whereas on a tank this isn't such a problem, on a UCAV, it would be. If you use pods of guns, you run into the problem of weight. One barrel with loaded rounds is going to be heavy and you start multiplying that by how many barrels you need to equate toa Gatling cannon... It really adds up. Not to mention a Gatling cannon (or revolver cannon) needs one small hole in the airframe, a six-barrel pod of MS barrels is going to need six times the opening unless you put in a rotation system (again, more complexity). I really do think Metal Storm is a wonderful idea but it's not as far reaching as it initially seems. Very good and very specialized.

Of course at its highest rate it would be hard to control greatly reducing accuracy and increasing ammo consumption, despite this the German army were willing to compromise because the increased fire volume delivered ensured a high hit probability which more than compensated for its reduced accuracy; also you have to consider the effects it had on troop morale, anyone faced with a weapon that sounds like a piece of machinery is going to be in for some brown trouser time.

The MG 42 followed the European concept of firing very fast and a lot to get hits instead of slow and more controllable. The idea is to get the shots off before recoil can take effect and severely throw the shooter's aim off. That's why experts with machinepistols can put them into a very tight space and rip something apart. I agree that the MG 42 is one of the best MG designs in history so far. - Colt

 

[Corpse]

I think the idea is to just use a hopper or something since the projectiles would be round and roll down a tube.

I figured that though still that means you have parts moving, and they would have to be moving extremely fast to be able to achieve the rates of fire they claim it has.

Feeding, loading, and unloading even 20mm chambers for those would run into the same problems of as an automatic cannon on a tank. Large, complex, and bulky. Whereas on a tank this isn't such a problem, on a UCAV, it would be. If you use pods of guns, you run into the problem of weight. One barrel with loaded rounds is going to be heavy and you start multiplying that by how many barrels you need to equate toa Gatling cannon... It really adds up. Not to mention a Gatling cannon (or revolver cannon) needs one small hole in the airframe, a six-barrel pod of MS barrels is going to need six times the opening unless you put in a rotation system (again, more complexity). I really do think Metal Storm is a wonderful idea but it's not as far reaching as it initially seems. Very good and very specialized.

Well, that would be a lot of barrels so it would take probably a bit longer to reload than say a load of mavericks or JDAMs; but in terms of complexity it would still remain extremely simple compared to a minigun.

All those barrels may get heavy once loaded but a gatling gun alone would have a lot of weight, (minimum of 19Kg if you use a 7.62mm M-134) then you need a power supply and then you got the ammo problem; an M-134 can fire up to 66 rounds in one second, 1,000 rounds of ammo (about 20Kg) are going to be chewed in around 15 seconds so you'll probably want to load at least twice that figure.

Metal Storm may operate at much higher rates of fire bordering on the ridiculous but you have full control over the number and type of munitions fired; further you have to consider all the different type of munitions delivered by metal storm which give you flexibility unlike any other current weapon design.

EDIT: Metal Storm have run tests mounting a twin 40mm launcher on a small UAV, here is the full article.

Test Firings lay groundwork for Airborne Weapon System.

BRISBANE, AUSTRALIA - 20 May 2004 – Metal Storm Limited (ASX trading code: MST and NASDAQ Small Cap ticker symbol MTSX)

International ballistics company Metal Storm Limited has completed test firings of its electronic ballistics weapon system from an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) in preparation for demonstration to US defence authorities.

The tests, conducted in the US this month, included a firing of inert 40mm grenade rounds in near simultaneous four-shot bursts from two lightweight grenade launchers mounted on a Dragonfly DP-4X Vertical Take Off and Landing (VTOL) UAV developed by Dragonfly Pictures Inc (DPI).

Metal Storm Director of Scientific Innovation, Mr Mike O’Dwyer said the firings successfully demonstrated the integration of Metal’s Storm generic 40mm Ballistics System with the remotely operated UAV.

“These initial tests confirmed the integrity of the airframe, recoil management, fire control and remote operation systems during ground-based firing from the UAV in both tethered and untethered operation under full power,” Mr O’Dwyer said.

“The next step is a set of full in-flight test firings followed by the planned live firing demonstrations to US defence authorities, which we anticipate occurring within the next three months.”

“Our ability to provide a remotely controlled multi-shot modular weapon system with selectable rates of fire in a very compact and lightweight configuration that is totally non-mechanical, is unique. We are seeking to develop a system that can equip small to medium size UAV’s with a very versatile weapon system that provides effective firepower without compromising the operability of the aircraft.” Mr. O’Dwyer said.

DPI Chief Executive Officer, Mr Michael Piasecki said having the Metal Storm team at DPI’s Essington, Pennsylvania complex over recent weeks has enabled us to accelerate our progress.

“Together the two companies have integrated the Metal Storm system on our DP-4X VTOL UAV. The results and accomplishments to date reinforce our commitment to this project, and confirm that Metal Storm offers a genuinely transformational electronic weapon system”.

“By combining our technologies we provide small VTOL UAVs with a real offensive capacity. I expect in due course that our new Dragonfly DP-4X UAV will be able to provide running or strafing fire with 40mm high explosive or other rounds.

"We expect the same weapon system will be able to provide vertical downward fire to disrupt Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs), such as we see daily in Iraq. The company commander will be able to direct the DP-4X to deliver the 40mm, or other calibre weapons, at targets before they threaten his personnel in convoy protection tasks, urban terrain operations and in reconnaissance roles.” Mr Piasecki said.

A video clip of the UAV test firing will shortly be available for viewing on the Metal Storm website.

Dragonfly Video 1 900kb
Dragonfly Video 2 900kb

Here is what they have to say in an old FAQ about the effects on accuracy and muzzle velocities caused by the stacking of the bullets.

Varying Muzzle Velocities? With the projectiles stacked in-line in the barrel, each projectile will fire into a different length of barrel. What effect does that have on accuracy and muzzle velocity?

Metal Storm technology fires bullets, which are stacked in-line in the barrel, and the necessary volume or load of propellant (gunpowder) is located between the bullets. If the propellant loads are of equal volume, and the bullets are fired in sequence, the barrel length will effectively increase as firing progresses, and the muzzle velocity of later bullets will be greater than the muzzle velocity of those fired earlier in the stack.

However, given that the stack sequence of the bullets is factory loaded, the propellant volume and/or type can be graduated or varied to produce a similar muzzle velocity for each projectile in the stack.

One feature of such tailoring of muzzle velocities can be that a projectile stack can be specifically loaded with calculated propellant volumes such that when fired at a predetermined rate and range, a beneficial concentration of kinetic energy can be delivered to a target.

And this is an old bit of news I had forgotten about.

High Pressure - What It Means

On 11 July 2002, Metal Storm Limited made a significant announcement regarding the firing of a stacked round, .50 caliber prototype military system, with chamber pressures exceeding 72,000 pounds per square inch (psi). (view announcement in .pdf 67kb) The purpose of this article is to provide readers a better understanding of what a high pressure firing means and where it has application in the military weapon inventory.

The significance of high pressure ballistics is best understood when related to the kinetic energy (KE), or power of a projectile. The elements that make up kinetic energy (KE) are the mass (M) of a projectile and its velocity (V) or speed. This is expressed in the equation KE = ½ M x V2. This means that to calculate kinetic energy (KE), half the mass or weight of a projectile is multiplied by the velocity squared.

There are a number of equations for measuring different types of energy, however in ballistics, kinetic energy (KE) is used to determine the energy of a projectile. For example, when the mass of a projectile is doubled then in simple terms the kinetic energy impact of that projectile is doubled. By comparison, when the velocity of a projectile is doubled then the resulting kinetic energy (KE) of the projectile is quadrupled.

The high pressure firing (exceeding 72,000 psi), outlined in the Metal Storm announcement, is at the high end of chamber pressures and therefore at the high end of the velocity spectrum. By comparison, a .50 caliber projectile is normally fired in the 50-55,000 psi pressure range, therefore the 72,000 psi firing provides more than a 40% increase in chamber pressure. Noting that an increase in velocity (V), resulting from higher chamber pressure, creates a proportional (V2) increase in kinetic energy (KE), the significance of the 72,000 psi firing becomes apparent.

The success of the stacked round .50 caliber firing opens opportunities for applying Metal Storm rapid fire technology into larger caliber, high pressure applications. For example, in close-in weapon systems (CIWS), a major commercial defense market, weapon systems are required which can defeat incoming missiles which may be aimed at allied ships. Calculations show that the application of Metal Storm rapid fire technology, firing high velocity rounds, can provide a significantly improved probability of successfully defeating a threat. When a Metal Storm rapid fire system is compared with a gatling gun, which is a primary gun system used for CIWS today, the Metal Storm system, in one configuration, could fire at a rate in excess of 25 times faster than a gatling gun. Metal Storm’s calculations indicate that if the outcomes of the high pressure firing are further developed and applied to CIWS, the comparative improvements to defeating a threat from an adversary become immediately apparent.

High kinetic energy (KE) projectiles also have a number of other characteristics which can provide advantages in a range of circumstances. These can include a flatter trajectory, improved accuracy and a shorter time of flight, which means a quicker hit on target. When these characteristics are combined with Metals Storm’s ability to rapid fire from multiple barrels and to create patterns of fire in the air, the advantages of a ‘high pressure’ capability in an application such as CIWS become more obvious. An additional key advantage of high velocity projectiles is the improved effects against hardened vehicles such as tanks and other armored vehicles.

For Metal Storm the ‘high pressure’ announcement means that Metal Storm technology now has application across the entire weapon pressure spectrum, which represents significant potential for enhancing military and commercial products for the company.

I am not sure if the VLE uses high pressure rounds now but if it does, then it would definitely not be as anaemic as I initially thought.