GamesRadar - The Infinite Potential of Fallout 3

[sonicblastoise]

No, that really wasn't the reason it was changed. The reason it was changed was because of the popularity of MMOs but FFXI and FFXII are both spinoffs, despite their names (FFXI is widely referred to as FFO[Online]). FFXII wasn't better than previous games, it was different and had the most gameplay problems (poor design; which were conviently ignored by the press) of any FF game I've played. It wasn't evolution, it was a change from JRPG to singleplayer MMO.

You're arguing that FFXII is a spinoff!? I... don't even know where to start.

sir, FFXII WAS a spinoff. ever heard of the "Ivalice Alliance"?

it was not intended in the same realm as the other Final Fantasy games. if you noticed, the only elements that remain the same are a semi-turn based combat model. the original final fantasy (or fantasies, up to XI) are all about a band of goody-two-shoes "light warriors" eventually facing a big bad-ass "dark" being.

the developers that made FFXII are QUEST, responsible for the gem that is OGRE BATTLE (1 and 2) that was absorbed by square. they tend to make storylines that are extremely political (they also did FF tactics, another SPINOFF) and are always in the same locale, namely, the kingdom of Ivalice. (yes, ogre battle 1 and 2 AND tactics AND FFXII are all in Ivalice. even Vagrant Story is in Ivalice).

so yes, final fantasy XII is a freaking SPINOFF. a GOOD spinoff.

 

[mandrake776]

it was not intended in the same realm as the other Final Fantasy games. if you noticed, the only elements that remain the same are a semi-turn based combat model. the original final fantasy (or fantasies, up to XI) are all about a band of goody-two-shoes "light warriors" eventually facing a big bad-ass "dark" being.

None of the Final Fantasy main series games take place in the same realm. None of 'em.

 

[sonicblastoise]

read my post maybe?

its about the story, the gameplay. the "fantasy"

quest excelled at making political storylines, but none of them are the black/white clear-cut storylines that one gets from playing the "original" final fantasy games. in that sense, these spinoffs are certainly in another realm altogether. as for NONE of the final fantasy games being in the same universe, you know that isn't true. and don't make me call you on it.

the ORIGINAL final fantasy games were about light vs dark. the SPINOFFS simply use the NAME while disregarding the other fundamental elements, like story and gameplay.

but they can still be good. see how i did that there? see??

 

[mandrake776]

Dude, it's a main series game. It's called Final Fantasy 12 and put out by the same people who put out all the rest of 'em. The spinoffs have all been labeled as such. Really, Final Fantasy doesn't work for the "sequels shouldn't change the gameplay" idea because each iteration makes major changes to the gameplay. FF12 just moves the combat a little closer to real-time.

 

[sonicblastoise]

actually it moved it further away from real time, since FFXI was fully realtime. so no.

also, FFXII and "all the rest of em" (i assume you're referring to tactics, vagrant story, ogre battles) are all developed by a specific group of developers, namely QUEST, and produced by squenix. so no.

the ff argument actually works very well, in both ways, because it's a prime example of a franchise that has been commercialized to hell while retaining entertainment factor and lore-ical fidelity, and having a documentable "evolution" of the series, namely, the slow and constant progression towards a new, and yet similar gameplay mechanic. a progression from Numbers-based turn-based action (die rolls, speed values, sequenced tactical action), to active turn-based action (speed values affecting realtime performance, e.g. the gauge filling faster), to the "active dimension battle" system in FFXII. the gameplay changes have been subtle at best. but over a long period time, it can be easily seen how different the first is from the latest.

that being said, what makes it a spinoff is really the setting, the story, and the item-base. which, if you're honest with yourself and you have played these games, is strikingly different. not WHOLLY different, but definitely not the same.

if you think that the "license board" was a natural "evolution" of the ORIGINAL series, you're wrong. the only holdover may possibly be the "class" system, but the "license" system is a development of QUEST, which started pretty much in ogre battle, grew in tactics and even more so in vagrant story, and then became what we see in FFXII.

the changes we see in final fantasy are far from "major." if there is any game out there who knows his history, FFXII is a nice change, but definitely not a surprise.

but this isn't about FF series anyway. why the hell am i talking again?

 

[mandrake776]

actually it moved it further away from real time, since FFXI was fully realtime. so no.

That's true, and at the same time, it's not really reasonable to make someone control multiple characters real time.

also, FFXII and "all the rest of em" (i assume you're referring to tactics, vagrant story, ogre battles) are all developed by a specific group of developers, namely QUEST, and produced by squenix. so no.

Put out meaning published. So, Squeenix.

that being said, what makes it a spinoff is really the setting, the story, and the item-base. which, if you're honest with yourself and you have played these games, is strikingly different. not WHOLLY different, but definitely not the same.

It's so strikingly similar that the ways in which it is different are negligible. The setting is completely in line with Final Fantasy 2, 7 and 8, and not that far from the others.

if you think that the "license board" was a natural "evolution" of the ORIGINAL series, you're wrong. the only holdover may possibly be the "class" system, but the "license" system is a development of QUEST, which started pretty much in ogre battle, grew in tactics and even more so in vagrant story, and then became what we see in FFXII.

The license board is a natural evolution of the sphere grid. Also, by original series do you mean original game? Because it kind of is, if you remember what Final Fantasy is based on.

but this isn't about FF series anyway. why the hell am i talking again?

I have to admit I was kinda wondering.

 

[sonicblastoise]

so you would safely admit that the final fantasy series is a perfect example of the process of evolution for a franchise?

because...it's done so very slowly, methodically, and not at all like what has happened to the fallout series.

so yeah, bethesda is going about "evolving" this franchise all wrong.

 

[mandrake776]

so you would safely admit that the final fantasy series is a perfect example of the process of evolution for a franchise?

because...it's done so very slowly, methodically, and not at all like what has happened to the fallout series.

I'd say it's an example of one way to do it. It's the safe way, certainly. But I'd say it's not the best way because a game that's close, but still bad is still a bad game. If they think they'll make a better game, this way, then it's best if they don't go with what's familiar.

so yeah, bethesda is going about "evolving" this franchise all wrong.

I think it's a way that's likely to alienate people who aren't comfortable with change. That's not an attack, a great deal of people aren't comfortable with it. I think mostly Bethesda wants to make something more profitable than Fallout has been in the past and they think that this is the way do that.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

so you would safely admit that the final fantasy series is a perfect example of the process of evolution for a franchise?

because...it's done so very slowly, methodically, and not at all like what has happened to the fallout series.

so yeah, bethesda is going about "evolving" this franchise all wrong.

Wow, whoops. I guess I really derailed this. There is plenty that I'd like to chime in on in that discussion but it's already strayed too far from Fallout 3 so let's end it.

Maybe a better example a sequel which isn't considered a sequel would be Devil May Cry 2 (if not just say no and we won't discuss it). There was such a negetive reaction to almost every aspect to the game spanning gameplay and plot that it has been put an indefinite period of time in the future (thus retconning it out without retconning it).

 

[mandrake776]

Wow, whoops. I guess I really derailed this. There is plenty that I'd like to chime in on in that discussion but it's already strayed too far from Fallout 3 so let's end it.

I saw a radscorpion the other day.

 

[sonicblastoise]

Wow, whoops. I guess I really derailed this. There is plenty that I'd like to chime in on in that discussion but it's already strayed too far from Fallout 3 so let's end it.

FINE. gosh. killjoy.

haha

 

[mandrake776]

DMC2 was dropped less because it changed things and more because it was a shitty shitty game.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

DMC2 was dropped less because it changed things and more because it was a shitty shitty game.

It was a very average game, not a shitty one but the reason it was so much worse was because it was made by a different dev team who changed large amounts of what the game previously was (and thus failed to meet fan expectations). People were also ???ing about the lack of Trish and Dante's business in general. Still, you're right that they wouldn't have cared had it been a success with fans but that's part of the point, the game sold well but Capcom listened to it's fans (which they regularly do) and made the changes they demanded.

Listening to fans is really where the comparison comes in. Capcom will try out entirely new things (new model) and when they are poorly recieved go back to their old model and improve it. Bethesda keeps with the same model and makes changes to it but when those changes are poorly received they ignore them, case and point the quest compass (though level scaling and fast travel could be included there). With Fallout 3 it goes a step further as they are not only ignoring their fans but fans of the franchise that they have bought. There is no doubt in my mind that even if Fallout 3 was heavily criticized by the press, let alone fans, that they would not make a TB TPP Fallout 4.

 

[mandrake776]

Listening to fans is really where the comparison comes in. Capcom will try out entirely new things (new model) and when they are poorly recieved go back to their old model and improve it. Bethesda keeps with the same model and makes changes to it but when those changes are poorly received they ignore them, case and point the quest compass (though level scaling and fast travel could be included there).

They listened about level scaling, didn't they? They got more voice actors, I believe, and there are fewer NPCs with more interesting things to say. I think it's unfair to say that they don't listen.

Personally, I like the quest compass, but then I played Final Fantasy XI, and just can not be arsed to find everyone needed for a quest anymore and I don't want to have to buy a guide.

With Fallout 3 it goes a step further as they are not only ignoring their fans but fans of the franchise that they have bought. There is no doubt in my mind that even if Fallout 3 was heavily criticized by the press, let alone fans, that they would not make a TB TPP Fallout 4.

They might not make a TB TPP Fallout 4, but they very well might look into the other aspects people don't like. If it's not a good game, it's not likely to be because of the perspective or the general system, because they're proven systems.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

They listened about level scaling, didn't they? They got more voice actors, I believe, and there are fewer NPCs with more interesting things to say. I think it's unfair to say that they don't listen.

Yes and no about level scaling, from the sound of previews it sounds like their system sounds better than it works which turns out to be (which is to say that it still has some nasty bugs). Voice actors is purely cosmetic (not gameplay nor plot/lore related) and requires no/minimal extra effort.

Personally, I like the quest compass, but then I played Final Fantasy XI, and just can not be arsed to find everyone needed for a quest anymore and I don't want to have to buy a guide.

Quest compasses are for certain types of games, namely ARPGs (which MMOs are a subset of) but generally speaking, most of those games (except MMOs, arguably) would do better without the sidequests as they are usually poorly designed and not fun (distracting from the fun parts of the game). That said, making ARPGs more similar, quest wise, to rpcs (which have their own fair share of bad quests) is admirable, the problem is that thus far, it's been a failure.