General Draft in the New Vegas Timeline?

[RetroAmerica]

One thing that struck me as kinda odd, with reference to the NCR Armed Forces presence in New Vegas, was that some personnel implied that they were draftees, while others claim that they serve in an all volunteer force, while furthermore there is a line of dialogue or perhaps a computer terminal, that talks about the need to introduce a draft.

So which one of these is true, or is this simply a symptom of confusion during the development process?

 

[PossibleCabbage]

I thought the Rangers were all volunteers, but the rank and file included draftees.

 

[zegh8578]

^that.

The NCR "regular army" consists of a bunch-load of demotivated draftees. Exact population numbers are never really divulged in Fallout, with a single exception - Vault 13 has about 1000 people during FO1 (it is still fully functional), and as such one can imagine (VERY roughly) populations in other towns.
If you look at the ordinary ratio of soldier/civilian in most populations, it tends to be 1/150

If the entire NCR-controlled area had a population of half a million, a typical situation would grant them about 3000 troops in all. But Hanlon tells you 1000 troops a year perish around Hoover Dam alone, which indicates that we're talking serious recruitment efforts. Based on that number of loss in a single place, we must assume that the NCR probably has several thousand troops, probably tens of thousands, while still being unlikely to have a total population of the many millions that would require.
Still, near impossible to REALLY estimate, since we got very little to go by, but, in the end, it is likely that NCR is forced to squeeze every drop of fighting ability out of their republic - while still not resorting to pure force and slavery.

The Rangers are "elite forces", volunteers, and therefore also much fewer in numbers.

 

[Chromevod]

I guess the New Vegas game guide says that the NCR has a population of around 700,000. I feel like the number of troops could probably be a bit higher than the 1/150 figure due to the still hostile nature of the wasteland.

 

[zegh8578]

I guess the New Vegas game guide says that the NCR has a population of around 700,000. I feel like the number of troops could probably be a bit higher than the 1/150 figure due to the still hostile nature of the wasteland.

The 1/150 ratio is the normal, peacetime, 2015 ratio of most armies in todays world. It of course varies a lot from country to country, but roughly! And of course - my point was that such a ratio would leave NCR with a much too small army, especially considering the number of losses mentioned by Hanlon, so the ratio is probably much higher, with every "able-bodied man" between some age and another being conscripted.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Probably conscription. This is the first (second if you count the BOS) major enemy force hence they may be desperate to conscript. Caesar's legion are full of fanatics, hence them being dangerous. The fact they're a total war centered faction also rises the risks.

 

[zegh8578]

That was always NCR's supposed weakness - their normality, the fact that the majority of NCR population live a life in freedom, democracy and safety (back in the Core Region, away from the crazyness of the Mojave), and thus, their armed forces are - well - armed forces, a fraction of the population.

Caesar's Legion are *not* pretending to be free or democratic, and can go ISIS/Lords Resistance Army style, and just force everyone who can walk into the military, turning the ratio on its head - only a minority of males do non-military stuff, and the women do the rest of the civilian chores.

It too is indicated, that the Legion has a huge army, tens of thousands at least. If all of NCR has - say half a million people, and these are the survivors of California, Los Angeles, HUGE population centres, the population of Legion territory would be significantly lower, and yet their army more than matches that of the NCR.

 

[Chromevod]

I guess the New Vegas game guide says that the NCR has a population of around 700,000. I feel like the number of troops could probably be a bit higher than the 1/150 figure due to the still hostile nature of the wasteland.

The 1/150 ratio is the normal, peacetime, 2015 ratio of most armies in todays world. It of course varies a lot from country to country, but roughly! And of course - my point was that such a ratio would leave NCR with a much too small army, especially considering the number of losses mentioned by Hanlon, so the ratio is probably much higher, with every "able-bodied man" between some age and another being conscripted.

I imagine there are conscripts and volunteers, even in the rank and file. Something to keep in mind is that the NCR makes no issue of having women serving as well. That helps quite a bit in the numbers department. Give 'em a gun and send them out. That frees up some people to do other things not related to the military. Cass being the primary example of this, I feel. She's an NCR citizen, and one who would come with some combat proficiency to begin with. But she's a caravaner, or rather an ex-caravaner, but she makes no hints at having ever been a part of the NCR military. It might vary from state to state in the Republic, but involuntary conscription at the very least does not seem to be necessarily the norm. Maybe Cass just gets away with it though due to being part of what is keeping the NCR economy going. Or maybe after the events of Fallout 2 Cassidy had some clout to keep his daughter out of the military so she could be free to choose her own path.

It's definitely something to think about though. I'd like to see a glimpse of what life is like in the Core region now. Was it Tim Cain who said if he had the choice, he'd wipe out the NCR and set everything back to zero? It was one of the developers. I would at least disagree with that. I'd love to see a game set back in the core region, the NCR in full force. I'd like to see how civilization is really starting to get back on its feet, what sort of things people there concern themselves about when the world is still by and large an irradiated hellhole. I'd especially like if it was established canon that the NCR was driven back from annexing the Mojave. Implying that either House, or and Independent Courier took over but still established diplomatic and economic ties. It would force the NCR back in on itself for a while, yet not have completely imploded from pushing too many resources into the Mojave.

 

[zegh8578]

Well... he has a point that Fallout is about "waking up" to a brand new world.
Once that world is no longer new, the whole scenario changes.

So, we then must make a choice - continue the story of NCR, a country like any other, libraries, parks, fire department
or wipe them out with, say, a huge nuclear holocaust, and "wake up" to a brand new world?

I love the current story as it is, I have fondness for the NCR, and their history, I wouldn't like to see them wiped out. So... personally I say leave the NCR alone (as well as the franchise), and re-play FO1 for that genuine experience

 

[Chromevod]

Possibly. I don't mind if the setting changes over the course of centuries, at least. It would make sense that after getting blasted back, civilization would get itself going again. After all, with everything leading up to the Great War, there's an argument to be made that it actually improved things for humanity. Being blasted back like that forced ingenuity, potentially fixing the issues with resources that led up to the Resource Wars. If feel like if the NCR is to survive and become a new nation as it seems to be moving towards, it needs to be forced to stop expanding for a while, and thus stop relying on expansion to maintain itself.

There's plenty to be explored along that avenue, I feel. So many stories dealing with the apocalypse only deal with the immediate aftermath. I'd like to see someones take on a society that built itself up, and is able to sustain itself with the apocalypse simply as a historical curiosity. I feel like it's the natural progression of the series. That, or an attempt to find the remaining vaults in the portions of the wasteland that remain undiscovered. To either eliminate potential threats like those from Vault 22, or to free people from cruel experiments such as what happened in Vault 11. Or, simply to ransack them for the resources inside due to the inhabitants having died long ago. It could make for a satisfying end to the series, even. We started with the Vaults, and eventually, we end with the vaults having been completely made irrelevant. With them as nothing more than pre-war curiosities. Remnants of a bygone age. Society finally casting off the reigns of the old world and truly moving forward again.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Personally I'd love to see a game set in the Rocky Mountains. I have an idea to set it there and might make a mod for it... but until then it's just an idea.

 

[Jubal Quintus]

As far as progression goes, it makes sense to see society evolve and grow as the timeline moves on. Were it up to me, new games wouldn't necessarily be set after the older games. The world is big enough to have stories that occur before and during (without dovetailing into the events of the concurrent stories) the previous games, as well as those that take place after. For Fallouts 3 and 4, what is gained by Beth setting them after Fallouts 1 and 2 (and up to 210 years after the war)? Literally nothing. Given the game world that Beth wants to create, one that still has edible food sitting in the kitchens of wood framed houses, setting their East Coast games during the Fallout 1 timeline or even before it would be the best course of action. Anyway, the world is big enough to mine a lot of fun stories in interesting settings, if only the devs weren't so hell bent of making each game follow the last and (forcefully) carrying over those "iconic" elements that are really out of place in other settings (I'm looking at you Brotherhood of Steel and Super Mutants).

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Exact population numbers are never really divulged in Fallout

Erm?
Look at VC travel log:
In 2241:

Redding:
POPULATION: A census is unavailable, but Redding is believed to have hundreds of residents

New Reno:
POPULATION: No current census, but believed to be several thousand..."people."

Entire NCR:
POPULATION: Though a census has been conducted, we do not have access to the figures. NCR is believed to have many tens of thousands of people.

BROKEN HILLS:
POPULATION: No current census, bu believed to be in the hundreds of residents.

VC:
POPULATION: Current Census 103 Citizens.

What about numbers of armies?
Look what Tag did:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/1wgmrk/just_how_large_is_the_brotherhood_ncr_and_the/

 

[zegh8578]

Exact population numbers are never really divulged in Fallout

Erm?
Look at VC travel log:
In 2241:

Redding:
POPULATION: A census is unavailable, but Redding is believed to have hundreds of residents

New Reno:
POPULATION: No current census, but believed to be several thousand..."people."

Entire NCR:
POPULATION: Though a census has been conducted, we do not have access to the figures. NCR is believed to have many tens of thousands of people.

BROKEN HILLS:
POPULATION: No current census, bu believed to be in the hundreds of residents.

VC:
POPULATION: Current Census 103 Citizens.

What about numbers of armies?
Look what Tag did:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/1wgmrk/just_how_large_is_the_brotherhood_ncr_and_the/

^and those are far from exact
Those estimates are much lower than I imagined though. 100 people for Vault City, wow...

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

There are more numbers, you need just look for them.
For example:
In 2241 Shady Sands has 3000 people.

Karl (NCR): "{114}{}{This is NCR, capitol of the New California Republic. Population 3000 and growing. No slavery, no gambling, no drugs. President is Mrs. Tandi, my boss is Sheriff Dumont. That answer your questions?}"

Those estimates are much lower than I imagined though. 100 people for Vault City, wow...

Because Vault 8 was created for 100 residents, so it remained unchanged with controled population.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Exact population numbers are never really divulged in Fallout

Erm?
Look at VC travel log:
In 2241:

Redding:
POPULATION: A census is unavailable, but Redding is believed to have hundreds of residents

New Reno:
POPULATION: No current census, but believed to be several thousand..."people."

Entire NCR:
POPULATION: Though a census has been conducted, we do not have access to the figures. NCR is believed to have many tens of thousands of people.

BROKEN HILLS:
POPULATION: No current census, bu believed to be in the hundreds of residents.

VC:
POPULATION: Current Census 103 Citizens.

What about numbers of armies?
Look what Tag did:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/1wgmrk/just_how_large_is_the_brotherhood_ncr_and_the/

^and those are far from exact
Those estimates are much lower than I imagined though. 100 people for Vault City, wow...

Remember that it says citizens. Don't forget the people outside the actual city.

 

[zegh8578]

Exact population numbers are never really divulged in Fallout

Erm?
Look at VC travel log:
In 2241:

Redding:
POPULATION: A census is unavailable, but Redding is believed to have hundreds of residents

New Reno:
POPULATION: No current census, but believed to be several thousand..."people."

Entire NCR:
POPULATION: Though a census has been conducted, we do not have access to the figures. NCR is believed to have many tens of thousands of people.

BROKEN HILLS:
POPULATION: No current census, bu believed to be in the hundreds of residents.

VC:
POPULATION: Current Census 103 Citizens.

What about numbers of armies?
Look what Tag did:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/1wgmrk/just_how_large_is_the_brotherhood_ncr_and_the/

^and those are far from exact
Those estimates are much lower than I imagined though. 100 people for Vault City, wow...

Remember that it says citizens. Don't forget the people outside the actual city.

Yes, of course, I thought of that - not that it helps any though, since the representation in game is at best "symbolic" (there are not 3000 NPCs in Shady Sands for example ), so, hell, it could be anything from another 100 "non-citizens" to thousands flocking from every corner nearby

It also feels typical of Vault City to completely dismiss non-citizens when doing a census

 

[PossibleCabbage]

New Vegas takes place 40 years after Fallout 2, which is a couple of generations. Given that the population is likely growing at this point, and that people will flock either to join or move to the NCR to get some semblance of civilization/safety, the 700k number probably isn't that far fetched.