George Zimmerman, race and the NAACP

[Mad Max RW]

Random website links are fun. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ds-racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html

 

[Syphon]

The point Im trying to make is, rather than Sanders linked experiment that pointed people out PHYSICALLY, preconceived notions about names and locations are just as damaging.

The Kansas city could of been a "red october" farmer who builds rockets, but the idea of a rural-bred physicist isn't appealing.

Also, the Mexican physicist could of been a pioneer amongst his peers but his place of upbringing is notorious and no one takes a chance on him to again, preconceived notions.

We hold a wide array of preconceived thoughts about everyone, as we try to find patterns and make sense of the world, given limited data. Oh you've seen 10k rednecks and 2k were white trash (sorry for hurtful statement), so you know you have a 1 in 5 chance of encountering an unpleasant citizen. But is that the true statistic? no. But your limited experience, all you know, creates images and stereotypes from instances.

Its not hard to imagine how we categorize behavior with people and races. We attach adjectives to every individual to explain their personality but when we find a (optical illusion of pattern) amongst a racial population, that too can be mis-categorized.

Like do Irish love potatos? Fuck yeah dude! but so do Scots. Given the chart above the Irish are pretty racist so I picked on them.

I'd pick the ones with the best credentials. Why would one ever have to pick a team of physicists based on name and location only?

Those are acceptable credentials, no? Like that list was "finalist" paper. Does racism or preconcieved notions about a populace affect your choice? Does your love for history manipulate your opinion on the German and Russian, based on their successful past of grooming scientists?

 

[Sander]

Mad Max, you keep linking that, and I have no idea why because you don't explain why you think it's significant. People don't admit to being racist in the US? Sure. As I've noted over and over again, discrimination doesn't need to be conscious or malicious to be present -- and in fact, it often isn't conscious or malicious. Which is what the study I linked to showed. Or rather, confirmed, because it's a pretty well-known fact.

Syphon: yes, stereotypes exist and so do prejudices. Ehm, so? I don't get how you think this contradicts anything I said.

 

[Mad Max RW]

Perhaps you should focus on the countries closer to home where racism is a serious problem, rather than trying to shove down our throats your perception of our country being so awful to blacks. Has there been any topic related to America on this forum you haven't turned into a personal soap box? I'm wondering why you keep going around in circles and who you are trying to enlighten here.

 

[Sander]

Well hey, start a thread on those countries and I'll start soapboxing about them, too. Or my own country. We have some massive cultural and discriminatory issues in dealing with Islam and immigrants, too. In fact, most of Western Europe does. Race isn't as much of a factor over here, but it is in France and the UK. Mostly for historical reasons.

But the fact is that the subject of this thread happens to be the USA, there are a lot of US citizens on this forum, it's a pretty big country with a pretty massive fucking role on the international stage, and the topic tends to come up a lot. It's not my fault the topic tends to come up a lot. I didn't even start the bleedin' discussion here. And you're not going to get me to stop commenting on it, because I am well-informed, and I do think my arguments and stance are logical and based on solid evidence. Which, I should note, you never provide for your views.

So maybe you should spend less time whining about what I choose to comment on in this forum, and more time trying to build your own views on evidence -- or trying to convince people with evidence. Or maybe you could spend your time trying to critique the content of my messages, instead of thinking up personal attacks that are irrelevant to the truth of what I'm saying.


As for who I'm hoping to enlighten? Mostly I hope that some people who read this stuff get something out of it. Not necessarily you, but just in general, people who read it. Maybe they do, maybe they don't.

 

[Mad Max RW]

What's the point when you argue with and dismiss nearly every post that doesn't follow your own beliefs? You're not holding a conversation or commenting. You're badgering people. We all do it. I'm guilty, too. But you are so consistent. I don't think you're even aware of what you do since nobody says anything probably because you're a forum admin.

You are a smart guy, Sander. But discussing anything with you is such a bore. I know I'm not the only person to feel this way. And I'm not trying to insult you. If you feel insulted maybe there's a kernel of truth to these issues.

 

[Sander]

I don't feel insulted by it. Why would I be insulted? People tend to polarize discussions and dismiss opposing viewpoints automatically, without actually examining those viewpoints. Everyone's guilty of it, as am I, but I do consciously fight against it. Which is why in these discussions, I try to find the data and see what it says. I can't help it if that data tends to refute your viewpoints.

It's easy to say that I "dismiss nearly every post that doesn't follow [my] own beliefs", but that's not actually what I've been doing. I haven't scoffed at your arguments or just said "that's wrong". Because if you go back throughout this thread, you'll see that I don't dismiss posts and arguments. I engage the arguments and I look for the data and the evidence. That's the whole point. I just haven't exactly been able to find the data that refutes my viewpoints because you and Syphon never provide any. The one time that someone tried to present some data it was a thoroughly debunked work.

But you think I'm just being dismissive, because apparently, that's what happens when people disagree with you. They just "dismiss", even when that dismissal is based on evidence you cannot and have never refuted. Feel free to feel that I'm just dismissing things. It's been obvious all along that I'm not changing your mind -- which is why I hope that other people reading this do get something from it. And feel free to realize that I'm not changing my views based on some guy saying I'm wrong with no evidence to back him up. I think that's a pretty logical stance, especially on topics where I am well-informed and have done oodles of research, don't you?

The point of a real discussion or conversation on a topic like this is not just to go "oh my what an interesting viewpoint you have" and then leave it at that. It is also not to convince people you're discussing things with, because that's almost always hopeless. But the whole point of these discussions is lost if you don't interrogate beliefs -- your own and those presented to you. And the whole point is lost, too, if you come into it and then ignore what the evidence says, or don't even try to present your own evidence.

Because then you're just engaging in some self-congratulatory nonsense that doesn't enhance your own knowledge of the topic. Worse yet, you're not even convincing any 'neutral' observers, or even shifting their beliefs.

 

[Mad Max RW]

I just haven't exactly been able to find the data that refutes my viewpoints because you and Syphon never provide any. The one time that someone tried to present some data it was a thoroughly debunked work.

That's simply not true. Numerous times throughout this thread (and even at the top of this very page) you are given evidence contradicting what you keep posting and chose to ignore or dismiss it every time. I don't believe for a second when you claim you cannot find evidence refuting your own words. You appear to have already made up your mind about America and are deliberately looking for "evidence" that backs it up then toss aside whenever someone says anything that clashes with it. This is why continuing the current discussion with you is a waste for everybody.

It's hilarious to me how the discussion started when people trying to convince us the Zimmerman trial was based on race fell apart. People who never followed the trial, mind you. Instead let's steer it to a more general discussion about racism in America. An endlessly repeating lecture about nothing. And from people who have never been to America and all they know about it is from books and websites re-enforcing a bias they always had. Now maybe I have you completely wrong. But I deal with students on a daily basis who convinced themselves they know everything and say much the same things as you. After a couple years of experiencing the real world away from the safety of the classroom their beliefs make a dramatic change. I don't know what you do in real life. If you work or if you are a full time student. Are you a home owner? Do you have a family? Or do you live off the government? I am genuinely curious to know where you're coming from here. I put some of my background out there to give a little context to my side of the conversation.

 

[Sander]

That's simply not true. Numerous times throughout this thread (and even at the top of this very page) you are given evidence contradicting what you keep posting and chose to ignore or dismiss it every time. I don't believe for a second when you claim you cannot find evidence refuting your own words. You appear to have already made up your mind about America and are deliberately looking for "evidence" that backs it up then toss aside whenever someone says anything that clashes with it.

What you posted at the top of this page isn't evidence of anything. Hell, you don't even use it as an argument for anything. You just post it contextlessly to show...what? Nothing? Pfsch.

And yes, when I'm presented with evidence contradicting my evidence, I look for reasons why there's a discrepancy. Is that a bad thing, now?

Meanwhile, your arguments and those of Syphon have continually revolved around whether or not there's a culture holding blacks back. Which I have never refuted, note -- it may be true, it may not be. I haven't seen you present any evidence for it. Nor have I seen you provide any evidence for the assertions that that is caused by welfare (which is flatly contradicted by every bit of credible research I've ever seen).

This is why continuing the current discussion with you is a waste for everybody.

If you feel that way, then stop discussing it with me. It takes two to tango.

It's hilarious to me how the discussion started when people trying to convince us the Zimmerman trial was based on race fell apart.

Go back and read the first post. It was about race in America in general throughout this thread. That's what Syphon started with.

But I deal with students on a daily basis who convinced themselves they know everything and say much the same things as you. After a couple years of experiencing the real world away from the safety of the classroom their beliefs make a dramatic change. I don't know what you do in real life. If you work or if you are a full time student. Are you a home owner? Do you have a family? Or do you live off the government? I am genuinely curious to know where you're coming from here. I put some of my background out there to give a little context to my side of the conversation.

You keep bringing the discussion back to me personally. As if somehow that has any bearing on whether or not my arguments are correct. It's tiresome.