Guy on blog: let's be mean to Bethesda

Per

Per

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Shamus Young, the internet personage who previously declared his love for S.P.E.C.I.A.L., wrote a post-E3 entry calling for some attention to what goes on behind the impressive presentation. Not your usual don't-mess-up-Fallout piece, but rather a reminder of Bethesda's pre- and post-release handling of Oblivion.<blockquote>The original Fallout wasn’t a sexy tech demo. It was an ass-ugly isometric game with cheap 2D sprites that offered incredible freedom, immersion, atmosphere, story, characters, and dialog. None of those attributes are things which can really be conveyed or measured within the ephemeral context of E3. I remember how things went with Oblivion, which was the last game Bethesda put out, and it’s only because of my great love for Fallout that I’m even entertaining the notion of paying attention to this game.

[..]

If my questions seem a little mean spirited at this point then I apologize for not being nearly mean enough. To wit: In Oblivion you released a buggy game and never fixed it. The mod community ended up fixing the bugs while you guys made new content, which is an inversion of how this is supposed to work. Making us little $5 download packs of content while the game itself is riddled with scripting errors and broken quests was a really sleazy move.

The hype phase of an upcoming title is an excellent time to bring up all the flaws with the previous title, since that’s when the developers and publishers are most PR-conscious. After release these sorts of complaints end up in forums where they won’t reach the undecided buyer. Once the review scores are up the publisher can go back to ignoring the general public and turtle in until they’re ready to trot out the next game for E3. Bethesda has poked their head out of the turtle shell, and while everyone else is gushing over their ZOMG GRAFITHX!! I want to take this opportunity to give them a few whaps on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper and encourage them not to screw this one up.</blockquote>Thanks to chuvak.
 
Isn't it kind of late for this sort of thing? Haven't you good people here at NMA been saying this kind of stuff for like 2 years with no tangible results?
 
The real question is if what he said is going to be brushed away like this:

"Ahh...he's just pissed because he didn't get to play anymore of the game."

or perhaps:

"Hmpf. I don't care what he says. Everyone else is praising the game so he must be wrong!"

The other funny question is how people could buy Oblivion without really trying it out first. I played Oblivion for a few hours and I really couldn't be any less interested in that game after that.
Well, that and the fabulous "RUMORS!"...
 
Scare said:
Isn't it kind of late for this sort of thing?
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That's what I thought at first too, which is why I added the "Not your usual don't-mess-up-Fallout piece" bit. Apart from the old "no level scaling kthx" bits, he's talking about how Bethesda treated Oblivion (and in extension the people who bought it) after release, and saying they shouldn't get away with it again. Of course, considering the number of people who will buy the game out of hand, there's nothing to suggest they won't if they go that route again.
 
LOL I love the guy's updated graphics card. It's 2 years old and he shows an image comparing what starcraft looks like with his old nvidia 6200 and his new x1650. Haha, priceless.

Anyway, this is the kind of stuff that I have been saying on the bethesda fallout 3 forum but getting through to those guys is like trying to pierce the frontal armor of a Panther with a marshmallow.
 
Yep, there are plenty of people who will play it not caring about the franchise, there will be plenty of people who play it with out any technical difficulties and there will be plenty of people who love it and be begging for more. Those are the people Bethesda cares about. Once you can accept that and move on, then the best you can hope for is that someone else comes out with the 'true' sequal to the game even though it may not be the same label...anyone follow what happened to FEAR...
 
A slightly different way of looking at this is by not providing us with modding tools they're going to have to fix all the problems that pop up themselves this time! When will they have time to produce add-ons and 5$ downloadable Pip-boy skins?
 
Ausir said:
Why do I always get a 403 when trying to access shamusyoung.com?
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bethsoft strikes back !
EnglishMuffin said:
Anyway, this is the kind of stuff that I have been saying on the bethesda fallout 3 forum but getting through to those guys is like trying to pierce the frontal armor of a Panther with a <s>marshmallow</s> teddy bear.
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fixed ;)
 
not really the most compelling arguments and some parts have been commented on ad nauseum, but who knows, if this convinces even on Beth fanboy to think twice, it was worth it. :)
 
EnglishMuffin said:
Anyway, this is the kind of stuff that I have been saying on the bethesda fallout 3 forum but getting through to those guys is like trying to pierce the frontal armor of a Panther with a marshmallow.
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Why would you subject yourself to such a Sisyphean labor? Willfull ignorance can't be untaught.

Let them eat cake I say!
 
ArmorB said:
Yep, there are plenty of people who will play it not caring about the franchise, there will be plenty of people who play it with out any technical difficulties and there will be plenty of people who love it and be begging for more. Those are the people Bethesda cares about.
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Why would Bethesda care about people who won't buy the game at all? It's not their job to try to persuade a few people to buy their game. Their job is to make a game that will appeal to the largest possible audience, to ensure a reasonable rate of return for their investment.

Considering that Elder Scroll's IV probably sold more copies than every fallout game released up to date, why wouldn't they try to re-create that type of financial success?

I realize that most people here have some notion that Beth is supposed to try to appeal to the pre-existing Fallout fans, but they don't. Any first year business or economics course will teach you that a company exists solely to make money. Not to try to be nice, and deliver a game that will not appeal to the widest possible audience.
 
rcorporon said:
I realize that most people here have some notion that Beth is supposed to try to appeal to the pre-existing Fallout fans, but they don't. Any first year business or economics course will teach you that a company exists solely to make money. Not to try to be nice, and deliver a game that will not appeal to the widest possible audience.
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Then we must conclude that they haven't taken any second year business or marketing courses which teach one about consumer relations and it's impact on sales over time. This is their second product in a row in which their mistreatment of their consumer base (though the bases were different) has created backlash which has shrunk their core consumer base. Backlash which could have been minimized (a certain amount of consumer turn-over is expect) through the proper use of PR and outreach to that core consumer base.

The question to be asked isn't "What damage will be done to short-term sales?" but "What damage will be done to long term sales?" I've seen no evidence to suggest that they've done the research needed to answer either question.
 
EnglishMuffin said:
LOL I love the guy's updated graphics card. It's 2 years old and he shows an image comparing what starcraft looks like with his old nvidia 6200 and his new x1650. Haha, priceless.
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Yeah, this guy is funny at times. That graphics card review is a blast. My "plus-ended screwdriver"! Bwahahaha!

His Fallout article is a good read as well, but:

It’s an interesting, varied, robust, well-balanced system. I doubt we’ll ever see its like again.
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Arcanum. 8-)
 
UncannyGarlic said:
Then we must conclude that they haven't taken any second year business or marketing courses which teach one about consumer relations and it's impact on sales over time. This is their second product in a row in which their mistreatment of their consumer base (though the bases were different) has created backlash which has shrunk their core consumer base. Backlash which could have been minimized (a certain amount of consumer turn-over is expect) through the proper use of PR and outreach to that core consumer base.

The question to be asked isn't "What damage will be done to short-term sales?" but "What damage will be done to long term sales?" I've seen no evidence to suggest that they've done the research needed to answer either question.
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Your point is valid, however, the fact remains that Oblivion outsold Morrowind (much to my chagrin), and in all likelihood the next TES game will be more in the vein of Oblivion than Morrowind (which saddens me).

Bethesda, naturally, would say that a game in Oblivion's style is more suited to making money, therefore, it makes more sense, long or short term, to release games more in Oblivion's vein.

Same goes for Fallout 3. It'll sell like mad, and probably win GOTY awards after it ships. Why would they not want to release a game in this vein? It seems to me that it would be foolish not to.

This isn't to say that I agree with this philosophy of making money above all else. Quite the opposite is true, IMHO. I would love to see an isometric, turn-based Fallout game. The reality is that it probably will never happen as long as Beth holds the rights to Fallout. And if Fallout 3 does as well as I think it will be, we'll probably never see a true Fallout sequel.
 
rcorporon said:
Their job is to make a game that will appeal to the largest possible audience, to ensure a reasonable rate of return for their investment.
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That's pretty debatable from a lot of different angles.

First off, I'd argue that selling a game should not be a developer's job at all. If you work on creating something (like, say, games, movies, books, etc) your job is to make it as good as possible, and it's up to marketing to show it as a desirable product to its intended audience. Despite whatever bullshit the suits in a company might believe, there is no surefire way to make money, and so dictating design by projected sales is pretty bad and myopic.

Second, not every successful product out there is, or should be, marketed towards everyone. There are always several different niches to be filled, and thank God for that, else the world might be as saturated in every aspect with mediocrity as the gaming and movie industry currently are. By that logic, no one should make mature or complex games as well, since that would exclude young and casual players, both very large audiences.

rcorporon said:
Bethesda, naturally, would say that a game in Oblivion's style is more suited to making money, therefore, it makes more sense, long or short term, to release games more in Oblivion's vein.
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Then why buy the license at all? It's just an unnecessary risk in that perspective, which encourages completely obliterating creative output and churning off rehashes forever and ever.
 
Seymour the spore plant said:
Then why buy the license at all? It's just an unnecessary risk in that perspective, which encourages completely obliterating creative output and churning off rehashes forever and ever.
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Because they can, tbh. If you had the money to make a fallout game the way you wanted, wouldn't you do it?
 
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