What I don't get is why the so called "Freedom fighters" feel it is acceptable to target civilians.
Happy Veterans Day!
- Thread starter Bal-Sagoth
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Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Pope Viper said:
Or launch rockets into Israel from a children hospital and cry foul when Israel is left with no other option but to bombard the area to protect its own citizens?
Yes the religion of peace works in mysterious ways.
Regardless as in some interview I read with an army officer he said he would do everything in his power to protect civilian life but when you are being fired upon from insurgents hiding in a daycare and your men are dying you really do not have many options.
They might see themselves as freedom fighters but methods such as the ones above are despicable.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Dal1as said:
Do not get upset over it, when you read things such as that just remind yourself that they have no say what so ever over the policies of our government and thus the opinions they have will remains just that, opinions.
Even Obama seems to have a great respect for our military and I look forward to see if he holds true to his word of increasing the military "by adding 65,000 soldiers to the Army and 27,000 Marines".
I dont find myself sick, rather realistic in seeing both sides of a conflict.
Just because one side creates a harsh reality for civilians doesn't mean that another has to cause an even harsher existence.
Seriously, there were true atrocities commited on both sides. But for the U.S to declare its heroic representation as the savior of the iraqi people is a horrible joke.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/03/13/winter_soldier/
Ever heard of the Mahudiyah killings?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/02/AR2006070200673_pf.html
http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/iraq/usgreen63006cmp4.html
there's also the use of white phospherus too
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/en/body.asp
Haditha Slayings....
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2007/09/200852513214595700.html
Mukaradeeb killings
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/21/iraq.rorymccarthy
Ishaqi Incindent
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5039420.stm
Propaganda(this taken from wiki, yes i know, but these are direct quotes so sue me
)
On February 17, 2006 then-U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld reported about new realities in the media age
"In Iraq, for example, the U.S. military command, working closely with the Iraqi government and the U.S. embassy, has sought nontraditional means to provide accurate information to the Iraqi people in the face of aggressive campaign of disinformation. Yet this has been portrayed as inappropriate; for example, the allegations of someone in the military hiring a contractor, and the contractor allegedly paying someone to print a story—a true story—but paying to print a story."
"The U.S. military plans to continue paying Iraqi newspapers to publish articles favorable to the United States after an inquiry found no fault with the controversial practice," Army General George Casey said March 3, 2006. Casey said that "the internal review had concluded that the U.S. military was not violating U.S. law or Pentagon guidelines with the information operations campaign, in which U.S. troops and a private contractor write pro-American articles and pay to have them planted without attribution in Iraqi media."
You know, as a result of the occupation that 2 million iraqis have fled?
Did you know that as a result of the occupation, over 151,000 iraqi civilians have died?
Don't consider me sick when you yourself support mass slaughterings of innocents.
Just because one side creates a harsh reality for civilians doesn't mean that another has to cause an even harsher existence.
Seriously, there were true atrocities commited on both sides. But for the U.S to declare its heroic representation as the savior of the iraqi people is a horrible joke.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/03/13/winter_soldier/
Ever heard of the Mahudiyah killings?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/02/AR2006070200673_pf.html
http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/iraq/usgreen63006cmp4.html
there's also the use of white phospherus too
http://www.rainews24.rai.it/ran24/inchiesta/en/body.asp
Haditha Slayings....
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2007/09/200852513214595700.html
Mukaradeeb killings
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/may/21/iraq.rorymccarthy
Ishaqi Incindent
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5039420.stm
Propaganda(this taken from wiki, yes i know, but these are direct quotes so sue me
)On February 17, 2006 then-U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld reported about new realities in the media age
"In Iraq, for example, the U.S. military command, working closely with the Iraqi government and the U.S. embassy, has sought nontraditional means to provide accurate information to the Iraqi people in the face of aggressive campaign of disinformation. Yet this has been portrayed as inappropriate; for example, the allegations of someone in the military hiring a contractor, and the contractor allegedly paying someone to print a story—a true story—but paying to print a story."
"The U.S. military plans to continue paying Iraqi newspapers to publish articles favorable to the United States after an inquiry found no fault with the controversial practice," Army General George Casey said March 3, 2006. Casey said that "the internal review had concluded that the U.S. military was not violating U.S. law or Pentagon guidelines with the information operations campaign, in which U.S. troops and a private contractor write pro-American articles and pay to have them planted without attribution in Iraqi media."
You know, as a result of the occupation that 2 million iraqis have fled?
Did you know that as a result of the occupation, over 151,000 iraqi civilians have died?
Don't consider me sick when you yourself support mass slaughterings of innocents.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
When you fight an enemy who makes his base in the home of his family and fires at you with children in a room expecting to gain the upper hand by the notion that the Western World has a greater respect for human life you are going to have civilian casualties.
Honestly what would you do? If you were being fired upon by multiple insurgents from a building and your brothers in arms were dying but you knew that building also had civilians in it. You would light that place up like it was the fourth of July.
Well maybe not YOU in particular but if you were infantry you would, you do what you have to do to get the job done. It is the nature of the people we are fighting.
As far as massacres/war crimes it happens in every war and when it does happen the people involved are dealt with severely. The most recent example I can recall is the Army Ranger who killed a man and took his ear as a trophy. Rest assured he will be spending quite a while in Leavenworth. So please do not sit there and try to tell me things of that nature are condoned by our government. They are investigated and appropriate action is taken.
You think water boarding is bad? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html check that out, Torture, Al-Qaeda Style.
Our methods are far more humane than the people we are fighting. All that without even touching on the suicide bombings or beheadings.
edit: Also on violence in Iraq post surge
The surge, clearly, has worked, at least for now: violence, measured in the number of attacks against Americans and Iraqis each week, has dropped by 80 percent in the country since early 2007, according to figures the general provided. Civilian deaths, which peaked at more than 100 a day in late 2006, have also plunged. Car and suicide bombings, which stoked sectarian violence, have fallen from a total of 130 in March 2007 to fewer than 40 last month. In July, fewer Americans were killed in Iraq -- 13 -- than in any month since the war began.
The result, now visible in the streets, is a calm unlike any the country has seen since the American invasion toppled Saddam Hussein in April 2003. The signs -- Iraqi families flooding into parks at sundown, merchants throwing open long-shuttered shops -- are stunning to anyone who witnessed the country’s implosion in 2005 and 2006.
http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2008/20080821142718.aspx
That is not to say Iraq is a paradise now, far far from it. However at this point compared to Afghanistan (a place we are going to be in for quite some time) it is a much better place.
Honestly what would you do? If you were being fired upon by multiple insurgents from a building and your brothers in arms were dying but you knew that building also had civilians in it. You would light that place up like it was the fourth of July.
Well maybe not YOU in particular but if you were infantry you would, you do what you have to do to get the job done. It is the nature of the people we are fighting.
As far as massacres/war crimes it happens in every war and when it does happen the people involved are dealt with severely. The most recent example I can recall is the Army Ranger who killed a man and took his ear as a trophy. Rest assured he will be spending quite a while in Leavenworth. So please do not sit there and try to tell me things of that nature are condoned by our government. They are investigated and appropriate action is taken.
You think water boarding is bad? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html check that out, Torture, Al-Qaeda Style.
Our methods are far more humane than the people we are fighting. All that without even touching on the suicide bombings or beheadings.
edit: Also on violence in Iraq post surge
The surge, clearly, has worked, at least for now: violence, measured in the number of attacks against Americans and Iraqis each week, has dropped by 80 percent in the country since early 2007, according to figures the general provided. Civilian deaths, which peaked at more than 100 a day in late 2006, have also plunged. Car and suicide bombings, which stoked sectarian violence, have fallen from a total of 130 in March 2007 to fewer than 40 last month. In July, fewer Americans were killed in Iraq -- 13 -- than in any month since the war began.
The result, now visible in the streets, is a calm unlike any the country has seen since the American invasion toppled Saddam Hussein in April 2003. The signs -- Iraqi families flooding into parks at sundown, merchants throwing open long-shuttered shops -- are stunning to anyone who witnessed the country’s implosion in 2005 and 2006.
http://www.timeswatch.org/articles/2008/20080821142718.aspx
That is not to say Iraq is a paradise now, far far from it. However at this point compared to Afghanistan (a place we are going to be in for quite some time) it is a much better place.
Yeah, by all means, it's the troops fault for being dragged into the conflict. Just like the ones in Vietnam that came back, got spat on and beat up for doing what their country told them to do.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
fedaykin said:
I hardly consider Waterboarding to be a life long traumatizing event, we do it to our own troops in SERE to prepare them psychologically for being captured by the enemy.
Torture is another subject but I am a huge supporter of extraordinary rendition. Which for those not aware of the practice is the transfer (sometimes kidnapping) of terrorist leaders to countries that have "harsher" interrogation methods. Such as Israel and Egypt as we have used those in the past.
If torturing a terrorist who would bring harm to the citizens of America will save the lives of Coalition personal I support it 100%.
edit: Also it is important to note that I do not feel we should break out the bamboo and driving rods for every insurgent we capture. I feel it should be reserved in extreme cases when the chance of acquiring the knowledge they possess could greatly help the war effort or save the lives of our fighting men and women.
An approach I am sure few here will respect but a very different one than our enemy who does it for no other reason except misguided religious zealotry.
its not the fact that they don't do horrible things, which they do. It's the fact that such an organized force as the u.s blatenly has handled the situation in iraq horribly.
Why the hell do you think there are all these reports of missed bombs, civilian targets being hit etc? Why do you suppose the world doesn't support this war?
How is a war that only costs the U.S billions upon billions of dollers, has amounted to pretty much nothing(200 children die everyday due to the poor health system currently enforced by the coalition) if anything society has actually regressed slightly backwards. Yes Saddam was a horrible being, but how much better are the iraqi people now?
Again. 2 million people have fled the country.
This seems more like an arrogant flex of military muscle than anything
Why the hell do you think there are all these reports of missed bombs, civilian targets being hit etc? Why do you suppose the world doesn't support this war?
How is a war that only costs the U.S billions upon billions of dollers, has amounted to pretty much nothing(200 children die everyday due to the poor health system currently enforced by the coalition) if anything society has actually regressed slightly backwards. Yes Saddam was a horrible being, but how much better are the iraqi people now?
Again. 2 million people have fled the country.
This seems more like an arrogant flex of military muscle than anything
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Pablosdog said:
Because it is a WAR, a war being fought by an enemy who does not wear a uniform and uses the civilian populace for support/cover. What do you really expect, I mean honestly?
You may have the luxury to criticize when your sitting at home on a computer not being shot at. For those Soldiers and Marines in the field however it is not as easy to make such calls.
Do not worry, we will be out of Iraq soon enough. I do however hope you approve of Afghanistan more however, as I think we will be there for quite a while. What was it Obama said? I think it was he wanted to send two more combat battalion's over there.
I have some gripes about the man but so far his foreign policy I do not mind at all.
At least his foreign policy won't be dictated by his daddy's former cohorts.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Pope Viper said:
I am more just happy he is not going to cut and run from the Middle East. We still have an amazing amount of work to do in Afghanistan. It is currently where we are receiving the heaviest resistance and hopefully pulling out of Iraq will relieve some of the pressure on our armed forces to deal with it.
Not to mention possibly having to invade Pakistan, another thing Obama seems to not be backing down on.
All in all I am looking forward to see what happens when he takes over.
I actually have a friend who's fighting over there right now. We've known each other since were 5 years old. We grew apart after he joined the military.
The thing is, afghanistan has become a sensitive place, and while i don't fully agree with the occupation there, they should at least clean up the place while they are still there.
Yeah it is easy for me to do it, but guess what? I was actually going to become an enlisted man, but I backed out.
I don't agree with it, but I do wish that the soldiers would come back home as soon as possible. That's more due to personal bias then anything else.
The thing is, afghanistan has become a sensitive place, and while i don't fully agree with the occupation there, they should at least clean up the place while they are still there.
Yeah it is easy for me to do it, but guess what? I was actually going to become an enlisted man, but I backed out.
I don't agree with it, but I do wish that the soldiers would come back home as soon as possible. That's more due to personal bias then anything else.
Torture is about punishment not information gathering. Extraordinary rendition is the same as have US soldiers do it. Iraq was invaded for no reason and it purely Americas fault for the condition of the country.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Pablosdog said:
Its cool, I do not mean to come off as harsh and I hold nothing against you for your political leaning. I probably come off as a bit extreme but it is what coming from a military family will do to you.
That along with the fact I will be serving myself once I am out of college makes it a touchy subject to me.
Still no hard feelings, I can understand where you are coming from on your points even if I do not agree with them.
Kilus said:
Torture is about punishment not information? While this may be true in some cases you cannot possibly claim it in every situation. Sometimes people know things that they are just not willing to give up without a little help.
Extraordinary rendition is different due to the fact we can get by those nasty little human rights laws by having Egypt Or Israel do our dirty work. Contrary to popular belief our forces are monitored and punished when they break human rights conventions. Obviously they have to be caught but you cannot say the government covers for them. Note Abu Ghraib among other smaller examples such as the Army Ranger one I listed earlier in this thread.
As far as why Iraq was invaded we could go on all day about that. I will myself admit it is time to leave, the real fight now is in Afghanistan and possibly one day Pakistan or (heaven forbid) Iran. The one positive thing I can say about Iraq is that we have killed a massive amount of radical Muslims.
An eye for an eye.
Torture is a great way to get someone talking. Hell it great way to get them to confess crimes. But really you just don't get reliable information. People will say anything to get out it. This is especially good when the torturer thinks the subject knows something when they don't, the subject will still fill the torturer with information. And in a ticking time bomb situation, the terrorist is strengthen. The countdown becomes his amour and is unbreakable.
I knew what you meant and my point is that outcome is same, torture. I don't care if means the US can getting away. Just because there are ways around the law doesn't make the act less wrong.
Or maybe the US could stop invading countries? Anyway those massive amount of Radical Muslims killed where mostly created by the invasion.
I knew what you meant and my point is that outcome is same, torture. I don't care if means the US can getting away. Just because there are ways around the law doesn't make the act less wrong.
Or maybe the US could stop invading countries? Anyway those massive amount of Radical Muslims killed where mostly created by the invasion.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Kilus said:
Yes because there was already not a large amount of Muslims full of religious zeal who would love to see Israel or the United States wiped off the map.
While Iraq is debatable I would love to hear your reasons on why groups such as Al-Qaeda or Hezbollah should be allowed to exist?
Radical Muslims in Iraq don't want to wipe out Israel or the United States. They want to wipe out Sunni/Shia Muslims.