Has war become normalized for Americans?

welsh

Junkmaster
Edit- This is a really long bit from a recent author- so be warned that it's quite a bit of reading on the above topic.

Ok, long post, but this touches on some issues that have been raised here before and might be worth thinking over.

What does it mean that US foreign policy is so belligerent? Is this a statement about the failure of US foreign policy.

Is this simply "might makes right?"

Also, perhaps should consider what ends this military serves. What does it say about US culture.

This part is funny-
George W. Bush styling himself as the nation's first full-fledged warrior-president. The staging of Bush's victory lap shortly after the conquest of Baghdad in the spring of 2003 -- the dramatic landing on the carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, with the president decked out in the full regalia of a naval aviator emerging from the cockpit to bask in the adulation of the crew -- was lifted directly from the triumphant final scenes of the movie Top Gun, with the boyish George Bush standing in for the boyish Tom Cruise

I can't believe I missed that image of George Bush as Tom Cruise's Maverick character.

Wait- didn't he dodge a war?

Ok, I'd like to hear what you guys think on this. Either for or against is cool. And before you think the writer is yet another liberal pussy- note the following--

The writer of the big quote below is Andrew J. Bacevich is Professor of International Relations and Director of the Center for International Relations at Boston University. A graduate of West Point and a Vietnam veteran, he has a doctorate in history from Princeton and was a Bush Fellow at the American Academy in Berlin. He is the author of several books, including the just published The New American Militarism, How Americans Are Seduced by War.

The Normalization of War
By Andrew J. Bacevich

At the end of the Cold War, Americans said yes to military power. The skepticism about arms and armies that pervaded the American experiment from its founding, vanished. Political leaders, liberals and conservatives alike, became enamored with military might.

The ensuing affair had and continues to have a heedless, Gatsby-like aspect, a passion pursued in utter disregard of any consequences that might ensue. Few in power have openly considered whether valuing military power for its own sake or cultivating permanent global military superiority might be at odds with American principles. Indeed, one striking aspect of America's drift toward militarism has been the absence of dissent offered by any political figure of genuine stature.

For example, when Senator John Kerry, Democrat of Massachusetts, ran for the presidency in 2004, he framed his differences with George W. Bush's national security policies in terms of tactics rather than first principles. Kerry did not question the wisdom of styling the U.S. response to the events of 9/11 as a generations-long "global war on terror." It was not the prospect of open-ended war that drew Kerry's ire. It was rather the fact that the war had been "extraordinarily mismanaged and ineptly prosecuted." Kerry faulted Bush because, in his view, U.S. troops in Iraq lacked "the preparation and hardware they needed to fight as effectively as they could." Bush was expecting too few soldiers to do too much with too little. Declaring that "keeping our military strong and keeping our troops as safe as they can be should be our highest priority," Kerry promised if elected to fix these deficiencies. Americans could count on a President Kerry to expand the armed forces and to improve their ability to fight.

Yet on this score Kerry's circumspection was entirely predictable. It was the candidate's way of signaling that he was sound on defense and had no intention of departing from the prevailing national security consensus.

Under the terms of that consensus, mainstream politicians today take as a given that American military supremacy is an unqualified good, evidence of a larger American superiority. They see this armed might as the key to creating an international order that accommodates American values. One result of that consensus over the past quarter century has been to militarize U.S. policy and to encourage tendencies suggesting that American society itself is increasingly enamored with its self-image as the military power nonpareil

How Much Is Enough?

This new American militarism manifests itself in several different ways. It does so, first of all, in the scope, cost, and configuration of America's present-day military establishment.

Through the first two centuries of U.S. history, political leaders in Washington gauged the size and capabilities of America's armed services according to the security tasks immediately at hand. A grave and proximate threat to the nation's well-being might require a large and powerful military establishment. In the absence of such a threat, policymakers scaled down that establishment accordingly. With the passing of crisis, the army raised up for the crisis went immediately out of existence. This had been the case in 1865, in 1918, and in 1945.

Since the end of the Cold War, having come to value military power for its own sake, the United States has abandoned this principle and is committed as a matter of policy to maintaining military capabilities far in excess of those of any would-be adversary or combination of adversaries. This commitment finds both a qualitative and quantitative expression, with the U.S. military establishment dwarfing that of even America's closest ally. Thus, whereas the U.S. Navy maintains and operates a total of twelve large attack aircraft carriers, the once-vaunted [British] Royal Navy has none -- indeed, in all the battle fleets of the world there is no ship even remotely comparable to a Nimitz-class carrier, weighing in at some ninety-seven thousand tons fully loaded, longer than three football fields, cruising at a speed above thirty knots, and powered by nuclear reactors that give it an essentially infinite radius of action. Today, the U.S. Marine Corps possesses more attack aircraft than does the entire Royal Air Force -- and the United States has two other even larger "air forces," one an integral part of the Navy and the other officially designated as the U.S. Air Force. Indeed, in terms of numbers of men and women in uniform, the U.S. Marine Corps is half again as large as the entire British Army--and the Pentagon has a second, even larger "army" actually called the U.S. Army -- which in turn also operates its own "air force" of some five thousand aircraft.

All of these massive and redundant capabilities cost money. Notably, the present-day Pentagon budget, adjusted for inflation, is 12 percent larger than the average defense budget of the Cold War era. In 2002, American defense spending exceeded by a factor of twenty-five the combined defense budgets of the seven "rogue states" then comprising the roster of U.S. enemies.16 Indeed, by some calculations, the United States spends more on defense than all other nations in the world together. This is a circumstance without historical precedent.

Furthermore, in all likelihood, the gap in military spending between the United States and all other nations will expand further still in the years to come. Projected increases in the defense budget will boost Pentagon spending in real terms to a level higher than it was during the Reagan era. According to the Pentagon's announced long-range plans, by 2009 its budget will exceed the Cold War average by 23 percent -- despite the absence of anything remotely resembling a so-called peer competitor. However astonishing this fact might seem, it elicits little comment, either from political leaders or the press. It is simply taken for granted. The truth is that there no longer exists any meaningful context within which Americans might consider the question "How much is enough?"

On a day-to-day basis, what do these expensive forces exist to do? Simply put, for the Department of Defense and all of its constituent parts, defense per se figures as little more than an afterthought. The primary mission of America's far-flung military establishment is global power projection, a reality tacitly understood in all quarters of American society. To suggest that the U.S. military has become the world's police force may slightly overstate the case, but only slightly.

That well over a decade after the collapse of the Soviet Union the United States continues to maintain bases and military forces in several dozens of countries -- by some counts well over a hundred in all -- rouses minimal controversy, despite the fact that many of these countries are perfectly capable of providing for their own security needs. That even apart from fighting wars and pursuing terrorists, U.S. forces are constantly prowling around the globe -- training, exercising, planning, and posturing -- elicits no more notice (and in some cases less) from the average American than the presence of a cop on a city street corner. Even before the Pentagon officially assigned itself the mission of "shaping" the international environment, members of the political elite, liberals and conservatives alike, had reached a common understanding that scattering U.S. troops around the globe to restrain, inspire, influence, persuade, or cajole paid dividends. Whether any correlation exists between this vast panoply of forward-deployed forces on the one hand and antipathy to the United States abroad on the other has remained for the most part a taboo subject.

The Quest for Military Dominion

The indisputable fact of global U.S. military preeminence also affects the collective mindset of the officer corps. For the armed services, dominance constitutes a baseline or a point of departure from which to scale the heights of ever greater military capabilities. Indeed, the services have come to view outright supremacy as merely adequate and any hesitation in efforts to increase the margin of supremacy as evidence of falling behind.

Thus, according to one typical study of the U.S. Navy's future, "sea supremacy beginning at our shore lines and extending outward to distant theaters is a necessary condition for the defense of the U.S." Of course, the U.S. Navy already possesses unquestioned global preeminence; the real point of the study is to argue for the urgency of radical enhancements to that preeminence. The officer-authors of this study express confidence that given sufficient money the Navy can achieve ever greater supremacy, enabling the Navy of the future to enjoy "overwhelming precision firepower," "pervasive surveillance," and "dominant control of a maneuvering area, whether sea, undersea, land, air, space or cyberspace." In this study and in virtually all others, political and strategic questions implicit in the proposition that supremacy in distant theaters forms a prerequisite of "defense" are left begging -- indeed, are probably unrecognized. At times, this quest for military dominion takes on galactic proportions. Acknowledging that the United States enjoys "superiority in many aspects of space capability," a senior defense official nonetheless complains that "we don't have space dominance and we don't have space supremacy." Since outer space is "the ultimate high ground," which the United States must control, he urges immediate action to correct this deficiency. When it comes to military power, mere superiority will not suffice.

The new American militarism also manifests itself through an increased propensity to use force, leading, in effect, to the normalization of war. There was a time in recent memory, most notably while the so-called Vietnam Syndrome infected the American body politic, when Republican and Democratic administrations alike viewed with real trepidation the prospect of sending U.S. troops into action abroad. Since the advent of the new Wilsonianism, however, self-restraint regarding the use of force has all but disappeared. During the entire Cold War era, from 1945 through 1988, large-scale U.S. military actions abroad totaled a scant six. Since the fall of the Berlin Wall, however, they have become almost annual events. The brief period extending from 1989's Operation Just Cause (the overthrow of Manuel Noriega) to 2003's Operation Iraqi Freedom (the overthrow of Saddam Hussein) featured nine major military interventions. And that count does not include innumerable lesser actions such as Bill Clinton's signature cruise missile attacks against obscure targets in obscure places, the almost daily bombing of Iraq throughout the late 1990s, or the quasi-combat missions that have seen GIs dispatched to Rwanda, Colombia, East Timor, and the Philippines. Altogether, the tempo of U.S. military interventionism has become nothing short of frenetic.

As this roster of incidents lengthened, Americans grew accustomed to -- perhaps even comfortable with -- reading in their morning newspapers the latest reports of U.S. soldiers responding to some crisis somewhere on the other side of the globe. As crisis became a seemingly permanent condition so too did war. The Bush administration has tacitly acknowledged as much in describing the global campaign against terror as a conflict likely to last decades and in promulgating -- and in Iraq implementing -- a doctrine of preventive war.

In former times American policymakers treated (or at least pretended to treat) the use of force as evidence that diplomacy had failed. In our own time they have concluded (in the words of Vice President Dick Cheney) that force "makes your diplomacy more effective going forward, dealing with other problems." Policymakers have increasingly come to see coercion as a sort of all-purpose tool. Among American war planners, the assumption has now taken root that whenever and wherever U.S. forces next engage in hostilities, it will be the result of the United States consciously choosing to launch a war. As President Bush has remarked, the big lesson of 9/11 was that "this country must go on the offense and stay on the offense." The American public's ready acceptance of the prospect of war without foreseeable end and of a policy that abandons even the pretense of the United States fighting defensively or viewing war as a last resort shows clearly how far the process of militarization has advanced.

The New Aesthetic of War

Reinforcing this heightened predilection for arms has been the appearance in recent years of a new aesthetic of war. This is the third indication of advancing militarism.

The old twentieth-century aesthetic of armed conflict as barbarism, brutality, ugliness, and sheer waste grew out of World War I, as depicted by writers such as Ernest Hemingway, Erich Maria Remarque, and Robert Graves. World War II, Korea, and Vietnam reaffirmed that aesthetic, in the latter case with films like Apocalypse Now, Platoon, and Full Metal Jacket.

The intersection of art and war gave birth to two large truths. The first was that the modern battlefield was a slaughterhouse, and modern war an orgy of destruction that devoured guilty and innocent alike. The second, stemming from the first, was that military service was an inherently degrading experience and military institutions by their very nature repressive and inhumane. After 1914, only fascists dared to challenge these truths. Only fascists celebrated war and depicted armies as forward-looking -- expressions of national unity and collective purpose that paved the way for utopia. To be a genuine progressive, liberal in instinct, enlightened in sensibility, was to reject such notions as preposterous.

But by the turn of the twenty-first century, a new image of war had emerged, if not fully displacing the old one at least serving as a counterweight. To many observers, events of the 1990s suggested that war's very nature was undergoing a profound change. The era of mass armies, going back to the time of Napoleon, and of mechanized warfare, an offshoot of industrialization, was coming to an end. A new era of high-tech warfare, waged by highly skilled professionals equipped with "smart" weapons, had commenced. Describing the result inspired the creation of a new lexicon of military terms: war was becoming surgical, frictionless, postmodern, even abstract or virtual. It was "coercive diplomacy" -- the object of the exercise no longer to kill but to persuade. By the end of the twentieth century, Michael Ignatieff of Harvard University concluded, war had become "a spectacle." It had transformed itself into a kind of "spectator sport," one offering "the added thrill that it is real for someone, but not, happily, for the spectator." Even for the participants, fighting no longer implied the prospect of dying for some abstract cause, since the very notion of "sacrifice in battle had become implausible or ironic."

Combat in the information age promised to overturn all of "the hoary dictums about the fog and friction" that had traditionally made warfare such a chancy proposition. American commanders, affirmed General Tommy Franks, could expect to enjoy "the kind of Olympian perspective that Homer had given his gods."

In short, by the dawn of the twenty-first century the reigning postulates of technology-as-panacea had knocked away much of the accumulated blood-rust sullying war's reputation. Thus reimagined -- and amidst widespread assurances that the United States could be expected to retain a monopoly on this new way of war -- armed conflict regained an aesthetic respectability, even palatability, that the literary and artistic interpreters of twentieth-century military cataclysms were thought to have demolished once and for all. In the right circumstances, for the right cause, it now turned out, war could actually offer an attractive option--cost-effective, humane, even thrilling. Indeed, as the Anglo-American race to Baghdad conclusively demonstrated in the spring of 2003, in the eyes of many, war has once again become a grand pageant, performance art, or a perhaps temporary diversion from the ennui and boring routine of everyday life. As one observer noted with approval, "public enthusiasm for the whiz-bang technology of the U.S. military" had become "almost boyish." Reinforcing this enthusiasm was the expectation that the great majority of Americans could count on being able to enjoy this new type of war from a safe distance.

The Moral Superiority of the Soldier

This new aesthetic has contributed, in turn, to an appreciable boost in the status of military institutions and soldiers themselves, a fourth manifestation of the new American militarism.

Since the end of the Cold War, opinion polls surveying public attitudes toward national institutions have regularly ranked the armed services first. While confidence in the executive branch, the Congress, the media, and even organized religion is diminishing, confidence in the military continues to climb. Otherwise acutely wary of having their pockets picked, Americans count on men and women in uniform to do the right thing in the right way for the right reasons. Americans fearful that the rest of society may be teetering on the brink of moral collapse console themselves with the thought that the armed services remain a repository of traditional values and old fashioned virtue.

Confidence in the military has found further expression in a tendency to elevate the soldier to the status of national icon, the apotheosis of all that is great and good about contemporary America. The men and women of the armed services, gushed Newsweek in the aftermath of Operation Desert Storm, "looked like a Norman Rockwell painting come to life. They were young, confident, and hardworking, and they went about their business with poise and élan." A writer for Rolling Stone reported after a more recent and extended immersion in military life that "the Army was not the awful thing that my [anti-military] father had imagined"; it was instead "the sort of America he always pictured when he explained… his best hopes for the country."

According to the old post-Vietnam-era political correctness, the armed services had been a refuge for louts and mediocrities who probably couldn't make it in the real world. By the turn of the twenty-first century a different view had taken hold. Now the United States military was "a place where everyone tried their hardest. A place where everybody… looked out for each other. A place where people -- intelligent, talented people -- said honestly that money wasn't what drove them. A place where people spoke openly about their feelings." Soldiers, it turned out, were not only more virtuous than the rest of us, but also more sensitive and even happier. Contemplating the GIs advancing on Baghdad in March 2003, the classicist and military historian Victor Davis Hanson saw something more than soldiers in battle. He ascertained "transcendence at work." According to Hanson, the armed services had "somehow distilled from the rest of us an elite cohort" in which virtues cherished by earlier generations of Americans continued to flourish.

Soldiers have tended to concur with this evaluation of their own moral superiority. In a 2003 survey of military personnel, "two-thirds [of those polled] said they think military members have higher moral standards than the nation they serve… Once in the military, many said, members are wrapped in a culture that values honor and morality." Such attitudes leave even some senior officers more than a little uncomfortable. Noting with regret that "the armed forces are no longer representative of the people they serve," retired admiral Stanley Arthur has expressed concern that "more and more, enlisted as well as officers are beginning to feel that they are special, better than the society they serve." Such tendencies, concluded Arthur, are "not healthy in an armed force serving a democracy."

In public life today, paying homage to those in uniform has become obligatory and the one unforgivable sin is to be found guilty of failing to "support the troops." In the realm of partisan politics, the political Right has shown considerable skill in exploiting this dynamic, shamelessly pandering to the military itself and by extension to those members of the public laboring under the misconception, a residue from Vietnam, that the armed services are under siege from a rabidly anti-military Left.

In fact, the Democratic mainstream -- if only to save itself from extinction -- has long since purged itself of any dovish inclinations. "What's the point of having this superb military that you're always talking about," Madeleine Albright demanded of General Colin Powell, "if we can't use it?" As Albright's Question famously attests, when it comes to advocating the use of force, Democrats can be positively gung ho. Moreover, in comparison to their Republican counterparts, they are at least as deferential to military leaders and probably more reluctant to question claims of military expertise.

Even among Left-liberal activists, the reflexive anti-militarism of the 1960s has given way to a more nuanced view. Although hard-pressed to match self-aggrandizing conservative claims of being one with the troops, progressives have come to appreciate the potential for using the armed services to advance their own agenda. Do-gooders want to harness military power to their efforts to do good. Thus, the most persistent calls for U.S. intervention abroad to relieve the plight of the abused and persecuted come from the militant Left. In the present moment, writes Michael Ignatieff, "empire has become a precondition for democracy." Ignatieff, a prominent human rights advocate, summons the United States to "use imperial power to strengthen respect for self-determination [and] to give states back to abused, oppressed people who deserve to rule them for themselves."

The President as Warlord

Occasionally, albeit infrequently, the prospect of an upcoming military adventure still elicits opposition, even from a public grown accustomed to war. For example, during the run-up to the U.S. invasion of Iraq in the spring of 2003, large-scale demonstrations against President Bush's planned intervention filled the streets of many American cities. The prospect of the United States launching a preventive war without the sanction of the U.N. Security Council produced the largest outpouring of public protest that the country had seen since the Vietnam War. Yet the response of the political classes to this phenomenon was essentially to ignore it. No politician of national stature offered himself or herself as the movement's champion. No would-be statesman nursing even the slightest prospects of winning high national office was willing to risk being tagged with not supporting those whom President Bush was ordering into harm's way. When the Congress took up the matter, Democrats who denounced George W. Bush's policies in every other respect dutifully authorized him to invade Iraq. For up-and-coming politicians, opposition to war had become something of a third rail: only the very brave or the very foolhardy dared to venture anywhere near it.

More recently still, this has culminated in George W. Bush styling himself as the nation's first full-fledged warrior-president. The staging of Bush's victory lap shortly after the conquest of Baghdad in the spring of 2003 -- the dramatic landing on the carrier USS Abraham Lincoln, with the president decked out in the full regalia of a naval aviator emerging from the cockpit to bask in the adulation of the crew -- was lifted directly from the triumphant final scenes of the movie Top Gun, with the boyish George Bush standing in for the boyish Tom Cruise. For this nationally televised moment, Bush was not simply mingling with the troops; he had merged his identity with their own and made himself one of them -- the president as warlord. In short order, the marketplace ratified this effort; a toy manufacturer offered for $39.99 a Bush look-alike military action figure advertised as "Elite Force Aviator: George W. Bush -- U.S. President and Naval Aviator."

Thus has the condition that worried C. Wright Mills in 1956 come to pass in our own day. "For the first time in the nation's history," Mills wrote, "men in authority are talking about an ‘emergency' without a foreseeable end." While in earlier times Americans had viewed history as "a peaceful continuum interrupted by war," today planning, preparing, and waging war has become "the normal state and seemingly permanent condition of the United States." And "the only accepted ‘plan' for peace is the loaded pistol."
 
Welsh, without meaning to be bitchy, do you always have to post every article you read?

I'm not saying there is no value to doing so, as there often is, but it really is a pain in the arse to read through them all only to find I am not really interested, so I usually do not bother.

This particular one seems to be an interesting topic, if a little longwinded and slightly pointless, but it seems to be a regular GD feature that you post a long article and few (if any) respond to it.

Perhaps it is time that you rethought your posting style? Perhaps a synopsis of (and link to) the article would inform people better as to whether they want to read it and get into a discussion on it.

After reading this, it occurs to me that it may be beter as a PM, but I sense that it has gone unsaid for a while.

After all, there has been a slight backlash on occaisions against other posters (cheifly CCR) who post an article with little or no comment.
 
Criticism noted Big T, and the execution squad has been sent to your most recent address.

No actually I thought I did lead this one off a bit with some questions. I should have posted the link and I think the title of the thread suggested what it was about. Believe it or not, I did cut off a chunk of the article.

If you post a link, people don't link to it. If you post long, people might not read it if they aren't interested. But some folks will because they are interested in this stuff. And if they they're not interested, it will just fade into the back pages in a week or so. Some topics get more weight and are read others don't but it's kind of up to the community to decide what stays. It's up to the posters as to what they want to post.

Big T, we're a big community with people of different tastes and we try to cater to them while sticking to some hard and fast rules in how people respond. So we'll have some fun threads about movies or games or just something funny, and we'll have some more thoughtful threads for people to consider and debate. Ideally this is one of the later.

No one is forced to respond or to read. But I will edit to note that this is a long thread. Perhaps you are right and we should change the way we post.

But one of the things I like about this community is that we have different types of posters who have different interests. I also like that people can post about what they want, and talk about what they want.

So yes, your criticism has been noted and I will consider it. And the hit team is disguised as pizza delivery girls.
 
Fair enough, it was intended as a constructive criticism, rather than plain ole flaming.

I have no problem with the more thoughtful threads, as long as they don't turn into arguments or flame wars, but I have some objection to this kind of "instant debate" topic, where an article is posted to invoke discussion without any comment or critique attactched to it. I am glad to see that you took my comment on board though.
welsh said:
So yes, your criticism has been noted and I will consider it. And the hit team is disguised as pizza delivery girls.
Are they hot?
Just tell them to go 'round to the back window and throw pebbles at it. I'll let them in ;).

Right, I'll stop derailing this topic now.
 
What kind of femala ninja hit team disguised as female pizza girls wouldn't be hot?

This is also not a post meant as a pick on the military types. But I think it does raise some questions-

Has the notion of military activism become normal for America?

Note to Big T- you may escape the danger of ninjas chicks if you use the cheese as a sexual weapon.

Is this a consequence of taking on the role of global policeman (and have we done a decent job of it?)

Or perhaps is it motivated by something else- private interests that want a more imperial foreign policy?

Is it for instance a consequence of our society? I think Americans were very reluctant to go abroad through the 1980s. When Reagan sent troops to Lebanon (a policy that led to the deaths of a lot good Marines) he was questioned under War Powers Act. Now, nothin comes up under the War against Terror. I think things changed under Bush 1 when we beat Saddam the first time.

But the thing is, this looks a lot like Britian near the end of the 19th Century when it was sending soldiers all over the world to defend its interests.

And what are the costs of this kind of policy?

These are big issues worth thinking about.
 
I like Bush a lot, he will make we all play Fallout in real life :|

Sorry for the joke, but I don't thik that war be the solution for ANYTHING
 
Sir_Fred said:
Sorry for the joke, but I don't thik that war be the solution for ANYTHING
Sorry Fred, but it's sometimes (though not as often as claimed) the only possible solution (or, at least, the only effective one).

I don't think terror offences are one of these scenarios though as there is not a clear enemy.

On the issue of the American normaility of armed intervention, I think it's become much more common because of an increasingly detailed world view.

Many of the conflicts you guys are involved in (or rather, have been involved in during the last 15 years) are in places the average Joe Q. Public (or whatever the term is) has never even heard of. The role of "world police" has been adopted because you have not been able to realise that you are no longer in competition with another similar-sized threatening state.

Also, the fact that the US is (for various reasons stemming from the formation of the country to geographic position to a more competitive/commercial mindset) the only country that has the economic viability to do so. Perhaps China or Russia could do so, but they seem to be occupied with their own internal problems.

It has also become a useful election tactic. Many of the electorate seem unable to disassociate the military from the country's interests and/or population.
 
welsh said:
Is this a consequence of taking on the role of global policeman (and have we done a decent job of it?)

The US foreign policy pattern that repeats is ousting of democratically elected leaders and support of brutal dictators. The strange thing is that most Americans don't even know this. Even when shown the facts they don't want to believe it.

Angola (supported Savimbi who killed 300,000 Angolans)
Bolivia (ousted Torres, supported Banzer's torturing of political opponents)
Guatemala (ousted democratically elected Arbenz, supported dictators who killed 100,000 Guatemalans)
Ecuador (ousted Velasco, installed puppet leader)
Panama (supported then ousted Noriega)
El Salvador (supported D’Aubuisson's death squads, 63,000 killed)
Nicaragua (supported Contras who killed 14,000 and displaced 150,000 Nicaraguans)
Haiti (ousted Aristide, supported Duvalier who killed 100,000 Haitians)
Honduras (supported "Battalion 316" who killed political opponents)
Dominican Republic (supported then killed Trujillo, ousted Bosch)
Brazil (ousted Goulart, supported Branco's death squads)
Chile (ousted and killed Allende, supported Pinochet who killed thousands of Chileans)
Greece (ousted Papandreous, supported "reign of the colonels" torture/murder)
Cambodia (ousted Sahounek, strengthening Kmer Rouge who killed missions of Cambodians)
Laos (many coup attempts, then more bombs dropped than all of WWII)
South Vietnam (supported Ngo Dinh Diem who opposes democracy)
Indonesia (ousted Sukarno, supported Suharto who killed a 500,000 Indonesians)
Australia (ousted Whitlam, this one is bizarre and it shocked Australians)
Congo (killed Lumumba, supported Mobutu who exploited his poor country)
Uruguay (supported Mitrione's death squads)
Iran (ousted Mossadegh, supported Shah's brutal SAVAK)
Iraq (supported then ousted Hussein)

welsh said:
Or perhaps is it motivated by something else- private interests that want a more imperial foreign policy?

What were the reasons for the above? A lot of them were framed as "fighting communists" but that's far from the truth. They were about protecting American business interests and political/economical hegemony.

welsh said:
What does it say about US culture

How many Americans know what happened in these 22 countries? Are they paying attention? Is it really "freedom fighting"? There have been over 200 overt military interventions and over 6000 covert interventions. It should be no surprise that people are pissed about these foreign policies.

Sorry, you asked for opinions. I'll probably regret saying anything political.
 
Dude, no, by all means post up.

I think most Americans would prefer to forget this, even if they knew it. What you mention is only a partial list. Supported the Chinese insurgents in Burma? Early involvements in Vietnam, the many interventions prior to World War 2?

But also, the US has worked through proxies or with allies. Lumumba was actually killed by Belgians, not the CIA- though the CIA probably had a hand in it.

But that raises the problem raised by the quote above.

Prior to World War 2 a lot of American intervention involved either control over it's sphere of influence or with imperial projects. Since all great powers were taking on imperial projects this was consistent with competition for power.

After World War 2 and during the Cold War the nastiness was perceived as either-

(1) ideological- part of the war against communism- the need to combat entrenched and bureaucratized totalitarianism in which case support for strong men autocrats was better, or-

(2) economic- the need for the US to assert control over international markets and capital flows to maintain it's growth.

Which one of those two ambitions was up for serious debate.

Now, however, the US has remained very active and hasn't signficantly downplayed its military despite the reduced threat abroad. (Sorry folks- terrorist strikes even with WMD don't equal nuclear holocaust). So what gives?

Only the economic motivations seem consistent.
 
Big T, the only war that could be the solution, was the WW2, but It was generated by Germans creating themselves a WAR.

So, the solution to avoid a War is another war, weird.

Terrorism, is not solved with wars as you can see
 
Welsh, let me give you a quote by Sun Tzu:

This is war.
It is the most important skill in the nation.
It is the basis of life and death.
it is the philosophy of survival or destruction.
You must know it well.


Maybe our leaders have taken that quote to heart, who knows.


Cheers Thorgrimm
 
Hey Thorgrimm-

Yes, Sun Tzu does say that.

But he also says that the wise general knows how to defeat is enemy by defeating his plan such that battles become unnecessary.

The great generals are not the ones who win great battles but those who win wars without battle.

Is that our leaders? I don't know. Frankly, the fact that guys like you and Elli are sent to fight wars in distant corners of the world makes me wonder why our leaders must rely on the coercive instruments of policy and not the diplomatic. Perhaps its because diplomacy has failed?

No offense, but I would prefer if our guys (people like you and others) weren't being shot at on a regular basis.

But back to Sun Tzu, he distinguished between the role of the ruler and the general leaving the method of warfare to the generals to decide.

But it is the ruler who decides what the national goals are or whether he should bring war to others, whereas the general is left to decide how to actually do it.

Which brings us back to the point. Our president who, prior to coming to office managed to duck one war by enlisting in the guard, had draped himself in the character of a "war president." One might add that his warfighting strategy in Iraq went against significant resistance from the country's generals. One could argue, again using Sun Tzu, that our president has not heeded Sun Tzu wisdom.

Furthermore, Sun Tzu warns against both fighting protracted wars (which will drain a country's coffers) as well as fighting in cities. Instead we seemed locked in wars without end and figthing in urban areas and dense population centers where guerrillas have advantages.

So, sorry Thorgrimm, I would think our national leaders have not read Sun Tzu.

(by the way if you like Sun Tzu you might also check out Liddel-Hart who applied Sun Tzu to more modern wars).

All that said, we are left with the question of motivation.

War has historically been fought as a means of furthering economic control and extraction. Note- we turn away from Liberia and Sudan but fight in Iraq. The justification for the war in Iraq is left unclear.

Honestly, I have posted support for the war in terms of removing a dictator and bring about reform way back when the Administration was selling WMDs.

Since then we have had shifting justifications for why this war was being fought. But shouldn't the president have a statement that says, "We're are going to war because it's vital to our national security interest" and then stick with it? Instead we find out that the president's administration is forcing the CIA and the DIA to make claims about weak evidence to justify a war. IF the government had to create a justification, than what was the real justification? In a democracy the government should be responsible and truthful to its constituents.

Have we reduced the number of terrorists or created more? Are we closer to silencing Osama Bin Laden? Is the world a safer place? If the US is to become a militarized culture, than maybe we should why this is happening?

I don't think the questions here are about failures of our military- which have done very well in achieving its goals. Rather, it's about failures of our administration. What sucks is the adage "shit rolls downhill." So the military gets blamed for abuse of prisoners or killing civilians when it was the administration that got the war going in the first place.


With regard to Iraq, I still think its a worthwhile effort and appreciate what the guys in uniform are doing. When things have gotten fucked up I think it has much to do with the "fog of war" and the mistakes of the political administration in orchestrating the war.

But what worries me is both the real motivation for this war because that keeps changing. I'd also like to know if we can more of these kinds of wars to happen in the future. If so, then why has diplomacy failed so badly?

And if war has been normalized, what are the costs of that?

The article suggests that the current military is like a foreign legion sent out to achieve national goals. Would it different if we had a conscript army?
 
Yeah, the military iconizes someone who avoided Vietnam war service, yet he and they put plenty more through the same.

Merely for the fact that he "won" the election to become president (thanks, Jeb!), or panders to the jet jocks. If you know Ron White's stand-up comedy, just replace "Roadhouse" with "Top Gun". I know some sad individuals who have warped VHS tapes from watching it all the time. A little bit of Hollywood does well for covering up the fact that the military is being used for making cash by corporations that "somehow and coincidentally" people in the govt have strong ties to. Too bad there isn't provisions for impeachment on grounds of conflicts of interest.

Welcome back to the taxpayers buying $700 hammers, - except that now they are also paying someone else to use said hammer (overpriced contractors who bypass the point of civvy. contractor bidding). This time around, it's spending $55,800 on 1,550 cases of soda, in Kuwait. That is $36 a case. Here is where the defense contractors stayed while making money off of military deaths.

Other known war profiteers besides Vice-Prez Dick:
Barbara Streisand (I'm not shitting)
retired four-star General Jack Sheehan (Connections? He's standing waist deep in shit.)
former three-star General Chuck Dominy - (Halliburton’s vice president for government relations and the chief lobbyist on Capitol Hill)
Kellogg, Brown & Root (duh)
Bechtel (more connections between this, the Defense Policy Board, and active profiteering than obvious indications that Graham Norton is gay)
Michael Moore
a few on the Defense Policy Board, in particular Richard Perle

People who only wish they were on this list:
Hanoi Jane Fonda
Bush Jr.

So now with the SEC investigating Halliburton, what would happen if a company that has been given contracts to take over aspects the US military used to do in the past, now goes down in flames? It is no surprise that many aspects of the proceedings are kept hushed, even years after any shred of "security" would be in question. The ripple of Halliburton falling from when Cheney gave it preferred contracting, from when he was the Secretary of Defense and further perpetuating it today, would be quite problematic. Enron and Cheney were doing the same shit for awhile up until Enron's accounting practices were called into question, and now Halliburton's are being put into tighter scrutiny. So is the how of their acquiring said contracts. Unfortunately, not by those who have the obligation to the taxpayers by accounting fraud, because they have to play the political game; who really could get away with taking the President and Vice-President to task on grounds of fraud? Kenn Star might help, but he's only good for investigating Presidential Hummers instead of fraud.

If Halliburton does fall, so does Dick, and that might kick the econo-political agenda of the politicians right in the jewels. If one falls, more will be put under scrutiny, and it might end up with the public losing faith in the presidency and quite possibly the military as well.

I do find it a bit odd that the author of the article didn't take into account how the vets, current and new, are being treated by the system. Not only are the military and vets treated as statistics, but the care contractually promised to them drags its feet in ways that puts those who are unable to otherwise work straight out on the street. Those in power obviously don't give a shit as to what happens as long as it makes them money and makes them look good, and the military just shunts the wounded to the VA when there is no more use for them in the military. So then today's "heroes" are tomorrow's homeless.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041207-121848-6449r.htm

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/27/1516231
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/13/1457235

Fuck it, too many to really list here.

Big T: You might want to note the difference between posting an article with some background discussion, and just posting an article out of the blue without much context to discuss about. Yes, we know whom does the latter, and that is going to be discouraged.
 
IIRC Sun Tzu also said that the best way to fight a war is not to fight it. Or something along those lines that sounds less like a bad Wargames quote.
 
Roshambo said:
Other known war profiteers besides Vice-Prez Dick

It's funny how when Cheney talks Bush's lips move. War is good business for these people, and they will keep it going as long as they can. Halliburton employees are told to waste as much money as possible. I read an article that said if a truck has a flat tire, just abandon it, and buy a new one. The conflict of interest with Halliburton is astonishing, then there's the Carlyle group. And they call it "spreading democracy". That's really rich.
 
I think I might have read the same article. In some cases, $85,000+ vehicles that the sacrificial lambs of the army only wished they had for replacement parts alone.

You would think that if they were going to commit and perpetuate fraud, they would have been a little bit more discreet than issue an open-ended no-bid no-boundaries guaranteed profit ontract - and then renew it multiple times even after gross fraudulent spending is found.
 
I'd give Kharns left nut for even half of the money haliburtin and their subsidary companies waste over here in 6 months.. Give it all to my unit, so we could order all the nice things we want, like dartboards, new ping pong paddles, New M4's and M240b's.... Maybe some chrome hubcaps for our chinooks, and a few Gators/polaris's for hauling our flight gear up and down the line.

Ahh, to dream.
 
Welsh wrote:
Which brings us back to the point. Our president who, prior to coming to office managed to duck one war by enlisting in the guard, had draped himself in the character of a "war president." One might add that his warfighting strategy in Iraq went against significant resistance from the country's generals. One could argue, again using Sun Tzu, that our president has not heeded Sun Tzu wisdom.

Welsh I firmly agree with you. I prbably should have said something like this, They have picked over parts they like and ignore the rest. As I agree they have not follwed the sages's wisdom.

It can be proven if you dig far enough, ALL wars are economicly based. Throughout history every human civilization from the city states to super nation-states have always prosecuted wars to secure the resources to keep their society going.


Welsh wrote:
it's about failures of our administration.

Amen brother, you are preaching to the one of the flock. :D

Welsh wrote:
Furthermore, Sun Tzu warns against both fighting protracted wars (which will drain a country's coffers) as well as fighting in cities. Instead we seemed locked in wars without end and figthing in urban areas and dense population centers where guerrillas have advantages.

Welsh I am a stickler for accuracy and your above statement is misleading, here is what the great sage wrote:

Using a huge army makes war very expensive to win.
Long delays create a dull army and sharp defeats.
Attacking enemy cites drain your forces.
Long violent campaigns that exhaust the nation's resource's are wrong.

You should not add anything to his writing, like adding the bit about guerilla warfare. As most Guerilla warfare happens in the field not cities. Sun Tzu was talking about long sieges of cities, not protracted small unit warfare in the countryside.

then again in the very next stanza 4 Sun Tzu goes on to say this:

Because of this it is the intelligent commander's duty to FEED OFF THE ENEMY.
Use a cup of the enemy's food.
It is worth twenty of your own.
Win a bushel of the enemy's feed.
It is worth twenty of your own.
You can kill the enemy and frustrate him as well.
Take the enemy's strength from him by stealing away his money.

Fight for the enemy's supply wagon's.
Capture his supplies by using overwhelming force.
Reward the first who capture them.
Then change their banners and flags.
Mix them in with your own wagons to increase your supply line.
Keep your soldiers strong by providing for them.
This is what it means to beat the enemy while you grow more strong.

So as it can be seen Sun Tzu is saying if you go to war, make the enemy pay for the campaign, not your nation, and he is not the icon for anti-war. He just makes it quite clear what it takes to be successfull.

Welsh wrote:
a democracy the government should be responsible and truthful to its constituents.

I firmly agree with you, as we are not truthfull, but then again neither are our allies and every other nation on this planet. For example Watergate in England would have landed Woodward and Bernstein in jail because of the Official Secrets Act. Unfortunately there has never been a society or government that has existed on this planet that was responsible and truthfull to it's constituents.

Welsh wrote:
If the US is to become a militarized culture, than maybe we should why this is happening?

I think it is going the other way Welsh. As fewer and fewer Americans are willing to step up and defend their nation. I think maybe most Americans are willing to let others make their decisions for them, and not complain about it. That is what I think is leading to the problems. It is stemming from the notion it is ok to let those in power think for them, as we seem to not care, as long as the entertainment and luxuries keep flowing.

Hell, it is the lack of civic duty and the giving up of responsibility and letting the powers that be do as they wished, that allowed to be created The Commitiee for States Security, err I mean Dept of Homeland Defense, which to me in it's creation was a step on the road to hell.

Ashmo wrote:
IIRC Sun Tzu also said that the best way to fight a war is not to fight it. Or something along those lines that sounds less like a bad Wargames quote.

Ash, this is what he really wrote:

The best policy is to attack while the enemy is still planning.
The next best policy is to disrupt alliances.
The next best policy is to attack the opposing army.
The worst is to attack the enemy's cities.

Then he says:
Make good use of war.
Make the enemy's troops surrender.
You can do this fighting only minor battles.
You can draw their men out of their cities.
You can do it with small attacks.
You can destroy the men of a nation.
You must keep your campaign short.

You must use total war, with everything you have.
Never stop fighting when at war.
You can gain complete advantage.
To do this you must plan your strategy of attack.

So he never actually said the best way to fight is to not fight.

I want to end my post on this quote from Sun Tzu as I think it shows that yes our leaders may have followed some, but not all of his guidelines.

Manage your government correctly at the start of a war.
Close your borders and tear up passports.
Block the passage of envoys. (diplomats)
Encourage politicians at headquarters to stay out of it.
You must use any means to put an end to politics.
Your enemy's people will leave you an opening.
You must instantly invade through it.

Immediately sieze a place they love.
Do it quickly.
Trample any border to pursue the enemy.
Use your judgement about when to fight.


Cheers Thorgrimm
 
The most striking aspect of that article may very well be the way the entire aura of the military has changed.

I've never really stopped to think about that. Here in Belgium still, the military is viewed as the last escape when you've failed in everything else and can't find a way to make a living. There's a military base not far from here, and I spent some time talking to some young Belgian soldiers in a bar in Knokke. And let me tell you: those guys are some dumb fucks. Unbelieveable. Heck, everything about the Belgian military screams out 'rejects': even the office of Minister of Defense is held by a guy that was to useless to put in any other government position...

So I wonder: where exactly did that change, in the USA? When it became apparent that war (on America's side) wasn't really that dangerous anymore; and 'smarter' people started to join, looking for an easy and 'safe' career? Most probably, though, the three generations of constant government military propoganda has simply changed the mind of the American public in such a way as to not see war as the occupation of the idiotic and childish anymore - as it is still viewed here. Heh. The irony: almost a hundred years ago, it was the other way around.

These 'feelings of superiority', as the author quotes the general, are besides worrying quite amazing too. It's an interesting concept from a sociological point of view, too: how to define 'morals'? If morality is doing what the guy above you tells you to do, then soldiers are indeed experts in that. If morality is however not following those pre-defined concepts and following those ideals you hold to be true in your heart - as the general post-modernistic view of morality usually is - then soldiers are doing a pretty lousy job. Hey, if you take the first route, then the SS soldiers who worked in the concentration camps were champions of morality too: they also followed the 'general' public opinion and did as they were told, as their society expected from them.

I was hoping that that first view in the military would've been over by now, though. As the author already hinted, the post-vietnam era had ample examples of soldiers questioning the morality of the orders they were given, and thus questioning this entire idée fixe of the superior morality of the US armed forces. That was perhaps also due to the circumstances, though: the war was not going well, and frustration among the US military (and thus the level of atrocities comitted) rose... So perhaps the US military needs to fall on its face again before the US military snaps out of its bliss of self-worshipping?


*EDIT*

Thorgrimm said:
Welsh said:
If the US is to become a militarized culture, than maybe we should why this is happening?


I think it is going the other way Welsh. As fewer and fewer Americans are willing to step up and defend their nation. I think maybe most Americans are willing to let others make their decisions for them, and not complain about it. That is what I think is leading to the problems. It is stemming from the notion it is ok to let those in power think for them, as we seem to not care, as long as the entertainment and luxuries keep flowing.

Hell, it is the lack of civic duty and the giving up of responsibility and letting the powers that be do as they wished, that allowed to be created The Commitiee for States Security, err I mean Dept of Homeland Defense, which to me in it's creation was a step on the road to hell.

Hah! The irony.

And a perfect illustration to my point.
 
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