Has war become normalized for Americans?

[Brother None]

As I agree they have not follwed the sages's wisdom.

Having read Sun Tzu's cute little peace of pro, I was lead to the conclusion that it's really not all that brilliant and really doesn't apply to everything people apply it to. It's mostly old, that's about it. Yeah, it's a really old book. Great.

For Frith's sake, man, this is not Zarathustra here, not everything he said is magically true or applicable to modern society..

(also, Dammitboy! misses you, though I guess you know him under themeaninternetman or The Real Specter)

I firmly agree with you, as we are not truthfull, but then again neither are our allies and every other nation on this planet

Oh dear, I guess the days when the US was created for the sole purpose to be better than all the rest are long gone, huh? "We're pretty bad, but so are the rest" is the new wave forward.

Hell, it is the lack of civic duty and the giving up of responsibility and letting the powers that be do as they wished, that allowed to be created The Commitiee for States Security, err I mean Dept of Homeland Defense, which to me in it's creation was a step on the road to hell.

Ey, man, that's what you get for having a crappy electoral system that is so bad that one of the most spirited democratic countries in the world has only half its people turn up.

These 'feelings of superiority', as the author quotes the general, are besides worrying quite amazing too. It's an interesting concept from a sociological point of view, too: how to define 'morals'? If morality is doing what the guy above you tells you to do, then soldiers are indeed experts in that. If morality is however not following those pre-defined concepts and following those ideals you hold to be true in your heart - as the general post-modernistic view of morality usually is - then soldiers are doing a pretty lousy job. Hey, if you take the first route, then the SS soldiers who worked in the concentration camps were champions of morality too: they also followed the 'general' public opinion and did as they were told, as their society expected from them.

It was pretty clear from the article that the soldiers were giving preference to a certain type of morals in calling themselves superior. Which is the only way morals work, to be honest, North finding its freedom tendencies moral and South finding its slavery tendencies moral, Royalists finding it moral to back a king, Republicans finding it moral to want to remove or kill him, etc. etc.

In the end the only thing that defines morality is who wins out. We live in an age of Western morality and, more recently, American morality because we've been winning for quite some time. Maybe once the Americans start losing again...

I think the soldiers in the article were mostly focusing on soldiery morals. Loyalty, obedience, maybe even honour. In all those senses I guess they have the average American beat.

I've been wanting to comment on that article but just can't. Damn, will do later.

 

[Thorgrimm]

Kharn Wrote:

Ey, man, that's what you get for having a crappy electoral system that is so bad that one of the most spirited democratic countries in the world has only half its people turn up.

Considering it is better than a style where the people elect a PARTY, and not even the leaders of their nation, yeah it is good thanks for the compliment.

Kharn wrote:

Having read Sun Tzu's cute little peace of pro, I was lead to the conclusion that it's really not all that brilliant and really doesn't apply to everything people apply it to.

Coming from a non warrior I would expect drivel like that.

Kharn wrote:

(also, Dammitboy! misses you, though I guess you know him under themeaninternetman or The Real Specter)

Who the hell is that?

Kharn wrote:

Oh dear, I guess the days when the US was created for the sole purpose to be better than all the rest are long gone, huh? "We're pretty bad, but so are the rest" is the new wave forward.

Well Kharn it looks like your penchant for misquoting is alive and well. As I never stated that the US was created to be better than all the other nations. I just stated it that way to show applying one set of standards to one nation while not applying them to all the rest is foolhardy. I suppose your beloved soviet motherland was the paragon of virtue eh?

Kharn wrote:

Maybe once the Americans start losing again...

I find it quite ironic that with the US protecting Europe for the last 60 years from true totalitarian societies, it is those protected who howl the loudest about the 'bad Americans'. It is that American protection that has allowed the western European nations to concentrate all their wealth into socialsit programs, and not their defense budgets.
And I suppose you think it will be your socialist paragons of virtue that will do just that eh Kharn?

Thorgrimm

 

[John Uskglass]

In the end the only thing that defines morality is who wins out. We live in an age of Western morality and, more recently, American morality because we've been winning for quite some time. Maybe once the Americans start losing again...

Guh. Relitivism. Why I'll never live in Europe.

You honestly believe that morality can be contorted that way? You honestly believe that Democratic Kampuchea was somehow a moral society in some way, or even if it was, that it was just as moral as every society that has come before it?

 

[Brother None]

Considering it is better than a style where the people elect a PARTY, and not even the leaders of their nation, yeah it is good thanks for the compliment.

A rather incomplete argument and to be honest I wasn't criticising the electoral college when applied to the President as much as when applied to Congress/the Senate.

And not to be anal, but since only two viable parties run for the President's Election and the general populace can't actually pick between multiple candidates from one party or party-less candidates, doesn't the one-party one-candidate rule in the US make it basically the same as in Rhineland model countries, where you elect a party knowing who will head the government if that party wins?

Coming from a non warrior I would expect drivel like that.

Do you always debate like a 2-year old moron or is that just in fashion? A childish attitude of "I was in the military and you were not" does not actually validate your point.

Who the hell is that?

Wait. No. Wrong guy. I think. Nevermind.

Well Kharn it looks like your penchant for misquoting is alive and well.

What?

As I never stated that the US was created to be better than all the other nations. I just stated it that way to show applying one set of standards to one nation while not applying them to all the rest is foolhardy.

Nor did I say you did state that. If you actually read what I wrote, you would have noted I stated that amongst the original ideas of the creation of the USA was a vision forward, the American dream before it became comercialised. Got lost in a bunch of crap, eh?

I suppose your beloved soviet motherland was the paragon of virtue eh?

Huh? I'm not Russian, I have no Soviet Motherland.

At least, I don't think the Netherlands was ever a Soviet Motherland. Was it?

I find it quite ironic that with the US protecting Europe for the last 60 years from true totalitarian societies, it is those protected who howl the loudest about the 'bad Americans'. It is that American protection that has allowed the western European nations to concentrate all their wealth into socialsit programs, and not their defense budgets.

You have a bit of a tendency to dreg up old topics and redundant points, huh?

The defense budget argument is brought up amusingly often, considering that even the defense budget of the US is only 2% of the GDP, not really that enormous a chunk of the welfare state expenditure of the US or European countries*. Why do you think such costs would enable us that drastically much more or less to do as we did?

Also, interestingly enough that article had details on just what is wrong with your statement. The US has a military big enough to defeat the rest of the world many times over. The EU forces combined are pretty impressive too and unless China rolls over us we don't have many direct threats that you're "protecting" us from. And Soviet Russia wasn't a threat since it turned introvert, which means that for the last 30-50 years you've been protecting us from nobody at all.

Except maybe terrorism, but that's a rather difficult thing to measure.

And I suppose you think it will be your socialist paragons of virtue that will do just that eh Kharn?

Do just what?

You honestly believe that morality can be contorted that way? You honestly believe that Democratic Kampuchea was somehow a moral society in some way, or even if it was, that it was just as moral as every society that has come before it?

You honestly believe it can't? You honestly believe that if the Ottoman Empire had conquered all of Europe (hypothetically speaking) we would not have different values? And since everyone has these values, would they not be "right" until new values win?

Majority or force is the only thing that even vaguely indicates the superiority of moral values, CC. Whatever moral value has the most force behind it is the biggest and best moral value.

But that's where you fail to understand a certain type of moral relativism that waves around Europe. I'm not saying Kampuchea was a moral society "in some way", nor am I saying all morals are equal to one another. I think you despise this kind of moral relativism, and justly so.

What I'm saying however is that historically speaking morality is just a matter of might and the fact that we think of our morals as great is just a matter of upbringing. I don't agree with all these morals and will protest against them where I can, but I do agree with others and will defend those where I can and will, in fact, consider them superior to other moral values. Just because they might as well have not been there, historically speaking, doesn't mean I stop believing in them.

*

* Australia (18.0)
* Austria (26.0)
* Canada (17.8)
* Denmark (29.2)
* Ireland, Republic of (13.8)
* Italy (24.4)
* Finland (24.8)
* France (28.5)
* Germany (27.4)
* New Zealand (18.5)
* Norway (23.9)
* Spain (19.6)
* Sweden (28.9)
* United Kingdom (21.8)
* United States (14.8)

 

[Ashmo]

Look! Someone believes in universal ethics!

:: points, laughs and walks away ::