Human Rights- Individual or Collective?

welsh

Junkmaster
Ok, this goes to the Mohammed cartoons above, but comes down to a simple question-
Are these Muslims right to say that they deserve special protection or should individual rights triumph.

Now be careful, because the more you draw a line that says- no free speech is more important, than the question becomes whose notions of civil rights should triumph?

Likewise if you say no, collective rights matter more- each culture should define it's own rights- than you have two problems. Aren't the Muslims campaigning for more rights in protection of their religion? And what happens to universal rights- aren't all humans vested with common rights that they should be entitled too?


What do you think?

Here's a very long article on this very issue. It's a bit dated and done while the Taliban was in power, but it's still worth thinking about.

Are Human Rights Universal?. Thomas M. Franck. Foreign Affairs 80.1 (Jan-Feb 2001): p191.
Full Text :COPYRIGHT 2001 Council on Foreign Relations, Inc.

THE RISE OF CULTURAL EXCEPTIONALISM

In May 2000, the Taliban, who rule most of Afghanistan, ordered a mother of seven to be stoned to death for adultery in front of an ecstatic stadium of men and children. The year before, the House of Lords -- Britain's highest court -- had allowed two Pakistani women accused of adultery to claim refugee status in the United Kingdom, since they risked public flogging and death by stoning at home. Women today are denied the vote and the right to drive cars in several Arab states, and harsh versions of shari`a (Islamic law) punishment are spreading to Sudan, Nigeria, and Pakistan.

Still, the Taliban's repression remains in a class by itself: denying women the right to leave home except when accompanied by a brother or husband and forbidding them all access to public education. Not only do the Taliban seek to spread their militant vision to other states, they also demand to be left alone to implement their own religious and cultural values at home without foreign interference. Leaders in Kabul insist that they not be judged by the norms of others -- especially in the West.

Of course the Taliban are not the only ones to reject outside scrutiny. Florida's government, after frying several prisoners in a faulty electric chair, has only reluctantly turned to other methods of execution to conform to the U.S. Constitution's prohibition of "cruel and unusual punishment." Yet when America's Western allies tell it that the U.S. system of capital punishment is barbaric, local politicians and courts reply that it is their way and no one else's business. Which is precisely what the Taliban say.

This is not to indulge in what Jeane Kirkpatrick, a former U.S. permanent representative to the U.N., has called the "sin of moral equivalence." The United States is not Afghanistan. What the Islamic fundamentalist regime is doing there violates well-established global law. Article 7 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) echoes the U.S. Constitution in proclaiming that "no one shall be subject to cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment," which certainly covers stoning and flogging -- but not execution by lethal injection or (functioning) electric chair. And the 1980 Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) prohibits almost everything the Taliban have done to subordinate women.

The difference has been widely recognized. In October 1999, the U.N. Security Council duly censured the Taliban by a unanimous resolution. The General Assembly, too, has shown its disapproval by refusing to accept the credentials of the Taliban's delegation. But Taliban leaders and other radical fundamentalists in Pakistan, Sudan, and elsewhere reply to such condemnation by arguing that their codes have reintroduced social cohesion, decency, and family values into societies corrupted by colonialism and globalization. They point scornfully to the degradation of Western women through pornography, prostitution, and other forms of exploitation, and argue that their wives and daughters have been liberated from public obligations to focus instead on home and family.

Although huge differences in degree do exist between repression in Afghanistan and executions in Florida, the point is that the arguments of Islamic extremists parallel those used by U.S. courts and politicians: namely, that states have a sovereign right to be let alone and not be judged by international human rights standards. The United States insists, for example, on the right to execute persons who committed crimes as minors. Never mind that this violates U.S. obligations under the ICCPR. It is the American way, representing American values and ethics.

Such assertions are made nowadays by many varieties of cultural exceptionalists. For most of the 55 years since the collapse of Hitler's own extravagant form of cultural exceptionalism, this sort of claim tended to be suppressed, or at least muted. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the several ensuing legal treaties setting out civil, political, cultural, and economic rights as well as the rights of children, women, ethnic groups, and religions, were meant to create a global safety net of rights applicable to all persons, everywhere. Although these legal instruments allow some restrictions in time of national emergency, they brook no cultural exceptionalism.

But more and more, such universalist claims are being challenged. And so the argument must be joined: are human rights truly universal, or are they a product of the decadent West that has no relevance in other societies?

COMMON CAUSE

The postwar flourishing of human rights has featured two dynamic elements: globalization and individualization. Against both a backlash has emerged.

Globalization has been achieved by drafting basic codes of protection and, to the extent possible in a decentralized world, by monitoring and promoting compliance. Inevitably, this scrutiny has come into conflict with notions of state sovereignty. When the Commission of Experts overseeing compliance with the ICCPR found Jamaica to have violated the treaty through its administration of the death penalty, Jamaica responded by withdrawing from the ICCPR provision that allows individuals to make complaints to the commission. Jamaica's defense in that case was typical: respect our culture, our unique problems. When it comes to the treatment of our own people, we want sovereignty, not globalism.

Sovereignty, however, is not what it used to be. Beginning in the mid- 1950s, the global system began to take humanitarian crimes more seriously. The U.N. barely hesitated before telling even quite seriously sovereign states -- Belgium, the United Kingdom, France, the Netherlands, and the United States -- to emancipate their colonies. And they did. By 1965, the Security Council was imposing mandatory sanctions on a white racist regime in Rhodesia and, in 1977, on South Africa -- although they, too, had asked in vain to be let alone to pursue the cultural exceptionalism of apartheid.

By last fall, the secretary-general of the U.N., Kofi Annan, felt emboldened enough to tell the General Assembly that their core challenge was to forge unity behind the principle that massive and systematic violations of human rights -- wherever they may take place - - should not be allowed to stand. . . . If states bent on criminal behavior know that frontiers are not the absolute defense; if they know that the Security Council will take action to halt crimes against humanity, then they will not embark on such a course of action in expectation of sovereign immunity.

Annan called for a redefinition of national interests that will "induce states to find far greater unity in the pursuit of such basic [U.N.] Charter values as democracy, pluralism, human rights, and the rule of law."

This bold call drew quite a hostile reaction from member states. Governments seeking to preserve their sovereignty, however, are not the only ones offended by this most recent call for the enforcement of global values. Some cultures perceive the global human rights canon as a threat to their very identity. The Taliban may brandish national sovereignty as a shield, but they also see themselves as militant guardians of a religion and culture that should be exempted from a "Western" system of human rights that is inimical to Islam as they practice it. Other governments, notably Singapore's, have similarly advanced their claim of exceptionalism by referring to "Asian values" that are supposedly antithetical to universal or Western norms.

In taking a stand against global human rights, the Taliban have made common cause not with the tired nationalist defenders of state sovereignty, but with a powerful and growing subset of cultural exceptionalists. These include some traditional indigenous tribes, theocratic national regimes, fundamentalists of many religions, and surprisingly, a mixed bag of Western intellectuals who deplore the emphasis placed by modern human rights rhetoric on individual autonomy. Although these exceptionalists have little else in common, they share an antipathy for the whole human rights system: the treaties, intergovernmental assemblies, councils, committees, commissions, rapporteurs of the secretary-general, and the supporting coterie of nongovernmental organizations (NGOS), each seeking to advance the cause of personal self-determination and individual rights. The exceptionalists view this system as corrosive of social cohesion and a solvent of community, eroding the social customs and traditions that become unsustainable once the individual ceases to be subordinate to the group.

RIGHTS OR RESPONSIBILITIES?

Although the struggle for human rights as seen through the prism of, say, Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch looks like a tug of war between governments and individual dissidents, the real action has moved elsewhere: to the battle lines between the forces of communitarian conformity and the growing network of free-thinking, autonomy-asserting individualists everywhere. And although a physical struggle is undoubtedly occurring for control of Chechnya's hills, the Khyber Pass, and the White Nile, a crucial intellectual struggle is also being waged between the forces of Lockian individual liberty and those championing communitarian values.

The communitarian argument is well paraphrased by professor Adeno Addis of Tulane University: "One cannot have a right as an abstract individual. Rather, one has a right as a member of a particular group and tradition within a given context." To this Princeton's Michael Walzer adds that the recent emphasis on individual rights has fostered a "concept of self that is normatively undesirable" because it "generates a radical individualism and then a radical competition among self-seeking individuals." This, Addis asserts, "breeds social dislocation and social pathology among members of the group."

Harvard professor Michael Sandel, in his recent book Democracy's Discontent, criticizes the accommodations made by U.S. law -- judge- made law, in particular -- to an ethos of individual rights that, he claims, undermines the civic virtues that sustain Americans' sense of communal responsibility. Sandel complains that the emphasis placed on individualism in recent years has neutered the state and elevated personal rights above the common good. At the international level, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad espouses a variation on the same theme. In 1997, he urged the U.N. to mark the fiftieth anniversary of the Declaration of Human Rights by revising or, better, repealing it, because its human rights norms focus excessively on individual rights while neglecting the rights of society and the common good. Meanwhile, Australia's former prime minister Malcolm Fraser has dismissed the declaration as reflecting only the views of the Northern and Eurocentric states that, when the declaration was adopted in 1948, dominated the General Assembly. Former German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, too, says that the declaration reflects "the philosophical and cultural background of its Western drafters" and has called for a new "balance" between "the notions of freedom and of responsibility" because the "concept of rights can itself be abused and lead to anarchy."

BUILDING NEW BONDS

The argument against this cultural relativism weaves together three strands. The first demonstrates that those advancing the exceptionalist claim do not genuinely and legitimately represent those on whose behalf that claim is made. The second shows that human rights are grounded not in a regional culture but in modern transcultural social, economic, and scientific developments. And the third maintains that individual rights are not the enemy of the common good, social responsibility, and community but rather contribute to the emergence of new, multilayered, and voluntary affiliations that can supplement those long imposed by tradition, territory, and genetics.

First, the matter of exceptionalist legitimacy -- or the lack thereof. Many prominent voices in non-Western societies reject the claims of exceptionalists who supposedly speak for them. Sri Lanka's president, Chandrika Kumaratunga, points out that "the free market has become universal, and it implies democracy and human rights." She dismisses talk about "a conflict of values" as "an excuse that can be used to cover a multitude of sins." Dato' Param Cumaraswamy, the former chair of the Malaysian Bar Council and a U.N. special rapporteur on the independence of judges, points to widespread non-Western ratification of human rights treaties as proof of their "universal acceptance." Former U.N. Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali bluntly states that there "is no one set of European rights, and another of African rights. ... They belong inherently to each person, each individual."

How, then, does one explain the increasing frequency and vehemence of exceptionalist claims made on behalf of culturally specific "values?" It often turns out that oppressive practices defended by leaders of a culture, far from being pedigreed, are little more than the current self-interested preferences of a power elite. If Afghan women were given a chance at equality, would they freely choose subordination as an expression of unique community values? We are unlikely to find out.

Some guidance can be drawn, however, from the parallel case of Sandra Lovelace, a Maliseet Indian from New Brunswick. Under Canadian law, which incorporates Indian customary law, she lost her right to live on tribal land when she "married out" of the tribe. When Lovelace took her complaint to the ICCPR's Human Rights Committee, she pointed out that no similar penalty applied to men. The global group of experts upheld her claim. Pushed to conform to its international human rights obligations, the Canadian government then repealed the gender- discriminatory Indian law. Although that change disturbed some traditionalist leaders, they were soon repudiated in monitored tribal elections. As with much that passes for authentic custom, the rules turned out to have been imposed, quite recently, by those who stood to benefit. Discrimination against women by the Maliseet, far from being a traditional requisite of group survival, was shown by recent anthropological research to have been copied from male-dominated Victorian society.

In a similar fashion, many of the exceptionalist claims made in the name of cultural diversity have been challenged by others in the non- Western world. Radhika Coomaraswami, the U.N. special rapporteur on violence against women, says that practices such as female genital mutilation, flogging, stoning, and amputation of limbs, as well as laws restricting women's rights to marriage, divorce, maintenance, and custody, are all inauthentic perversions of various religious dogmas. Moreover, she insists that "cultural diversity should be celebrated only if those enjoying their cultural attributes are doing so voluntarily." In her landmark study of Islam and human rights, Professor Ann Elizabeth Mayer concludes that much of the pedigree claimed by fundamentalists does "not represent the result of rigorous, scholarly analysis of Islamic sources or a coherent approach to Islamic jurisprudence." The Egyptian art historian Professor Nasr Abu-Zaid puts it simply: "It is the militants who are ... hijacking Islam."

Just as many of the idiosyncratic customs that alienate non-Western traditionalists from the human rights system are inauthentic, so too are the attempts to portray these rights as aspects of Western cultural imperialism. The human rights canon is full of rules that, far from being deeply rooted in Western culture, are actually the products of recent developments -- industrialization, urbanization, the communications and information revolutions -- that are replicable anywhere, even if they have not occurred everywhere at once. They are hardly Western; if examined historically, traditional Western culture comes to look more like everyone else's zealous fundamentalism. Look closely through this lens, and even the Taliban begin to seem "Western" in their practices. Alcibiades, a commander of the Athenian army, was condemned to death for impiety in 415 B.C., as was Socrates years later. And remember that stoning for blasphemy is recommended by the Old Testament (Leviticus 24: 16).

As this suggests, there is nothing remotely Western about religious freedom and tolerance. Islamic fundamentalists insist that tolerance is not for them, that non-Muslims must not be allowed to proselytize in their societies, that Islam's followers may not exit the "true" religion, and that blasphemy is to be punished severely. As it happens, Western Christian civilization insisted on much the same for most of its first two millennia. St. Augustine, citing his favorite text ("Compel them to come in," Luke 14: 16-23), advocated death for heretics. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, heretics "by right ... can be put to death and despoiled of their possessions ... even if they do not corrupt others, for they are blasphemers against God" and thus commit "high treason." There was certainly no trace of religious toleration in Tudor England, where, during the first hundred years after the establishment of the Church of England, hundreds were executed by zealots. During the brief restoration of Catholicism under Queen Mary (1553-58), 273 subjects, including 4 bishops and an archbishop, were burned for heresy. Meanwhile, in Geneva, the reformer John Calvin was executing the anti-Trinitarian Michael Servetus. Back in Britain, under Cromwell's Protectorate, dissenting Protestants were jailed, whipped, hanged, or had their tongues bored through with hot irons at the insistence of the Presbyterian establishment. And in the 1729 case of Rex v. Woolston, Sir William Blackstone, the great jurist of the common law, declared blasphemy a criminal libel, a "public affront to religion and morality, on which all government must depend for support."

Nor are such events limited to ancient history. The last blasphemy prosecution to have succeeded in England was brought in 1979 against James Kirkup, a poet teaching at Amherst who depicted Jesus as homosexual. In the House of Lords, his conviction was sustained by Lord Scarman, who thought it essential to protect "religious beliefs ... from scurrility, vilification, ridicule, and contempt."

In the United States, criminal blasphemy convictions resulting in imprisonment, with solitary confinement and large fines, were imposed throughout the nineteenth century under state or common law. In New York in 1811, Chief Justice James Kent admonished a convicted blasphemer "that we are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply ingrafted upon Christianity and not upon the doctrines of worship of those impostors Mahomet and the Grand Lama." Kent himself was a Unitarian, nowadays a rather liberal faith, but he believed that religion was the bulwark of social order and that expressions of irreligiosity had to be punished because they "strike at the roots of moral obligation, and weaken the security of the social ties." Ayatollah Khomeini could not have said it better.

Other parts of the human rights canon have little more claim to being "Western" than does freedom of religion. France did not extend the franchise to women until the end of World War II. Harvard Law School began admitting women only in the 1950s. The first American female candidate for a medical degree was Elizabeth Blackwell, who graduated from a rural medical college in Geneva, New York, in 1849 but had to complete her training in Paris. Slavery, sanctioned by the Old Testament (Exodus 21: 2, 26, 27, 32), was abolished in the United States only in 1865, and the Supreme Court ruled in 1897 that sailors could be compelled, on pain of criminal penalties, to perform indentured labor because, as a class, they were "deficient in that full and intelligent responsibility for their acts which is accredited to ordinary adults" and should thus be recommitted to ship-owners as their putative "parents and guardians."

What brought about the transformation to personal autonomy in religion, speech, and employment as well as equal legal rights for the races and sexes? Although these recent developments occurred first in the West, they were caused not by some inherent cultural factor but by changes occurring, at different rates, everywhere: universal education, industrialization, urbanization, the rise of a middle class, advances in transportation and communications, and the spread of new information technology. These changes were driven by scientific developments capable of affecting equally any society. It is these trends, and not some historical or social determinant, that -- almost as a byproduct -- generated the move to global human rights.

In the United Kingdom, it was the growth of a capitalist middle class in the eighteenth-century Industrial Revolution that fueled the demand for quality children's education and thereby compelled the admission of women to the teaching profession. In the United States, the demographic consequences of the Civil War gradually forced an opening for women in medicine and law. After World War II, veterans' benefits and the need for a large peacetime army profoundly affected the opportunities of African Americans. Improved and cheaper transportation loosened the ties that long bound people to the place where they were born and generated a demand for the right to travel and emigrate. The advent of information globalization through CNN and the Internet has profoundly affected individual participation in discourses on foreign and domestic politics, just as the invention of the printing press and Gutenberg's vulgate Bible unleashed the social forces leading to the Reformation.

These changes, wherever they have occurred, have boosted the capacity for individual autonomy and, in consequence, fueled the demand for more personal liberty. Does this trend, as the cultural exceptionalists warn, presage the unraveling of community and social responsibility? Elites in authoritarian societies have always professed to think so. When, in 1867, the Boston School Committee rejected a petition signed by, among others, Harvard President Thomas Hill and the poet Henry Wadsworth Longfellow calling for abolition of corporal punishment, the committee, employing the common Benthamite communitarian litany, defended beatings as advancing "the greatest good of the greatest number." Modern individualists, however, believe that the good of the greatest number should not be achieved by sacrificing the human rights of even the smallest number. They also believe that, set free of unnecessary communal constraints, individuals will not retreat into social anomie but, on the contrary, will freely choose multilayered affinities and complex, variegated interpersonal loyalties that redefine community without the loss of social responsibility.

Modern human rights-based claims to individual autonomy arise primarily not out of opposition to community, but from the desires of modern persons to use intellectual and technological innovations to supplement their continued traditional ties with genetically and geographically based communities. Liberated from predetermined definitions of racial, religious, and national identities, people still tend to choose to belong to groups. This threatens the state and the traditional group only to the extent that traditional communities are no longer able, alone, to resolve some of the most difficult global problems facing humanity: epidemics, trade flows, environmental degradation, or global warming. Few quarrel with Aristotle's observation that "he who is unable to live in society, or who has no need because he is sufficient for himself, must be either a beast or a God." But many, freed to do so, now define themselves, at least in part, as "new communitarians," seeking additional transnational forums of association.

According to policy analyst Hazel Henderson, "Citizen movements and people's associations of all kinds cover the whole range of human concerns. ... The rise of such organizations [is] one of the most striking phenomena of the twentieth century." For example, whereas there were 5 international NGOs in 1850 and 176 in 1909, now more than 18,000 are listed by the U.N., which reports that "people's participation is becoming the central issue of our time." Most of these NGOs, from Medecins Sans Frontieres to the International Confederation of Free Trade Unions, are engaged globally in socially responsible activities that promote the well-being of others.

JOINING THE BATTLE

It appears, then, that the globalization of human rights and personal freedoms is rarely an affront to any legitimate interest in cultural self-preservation. Nor do human rights represent Western cultural imperialism; instead, they are the consequence of modernizing forces that are not culturally specific. And the social consequences of expanding human rights have been far more benign than traditional communitarians have feared. To the Taliban's claim of cultural exceptionalism one might more specifically reply, first, that the Taliban's interpretation of the culture they claim to defend is considered incorrect by most Islamic historians and theologians; second, that their claim to speak on behalf of Afghan culture is undermined by their silencing of half the population; third, that the force of individual rights is becoming irresistible in a world of globalizing fiscal, commercial, cultural, and informational forces; and fourth, that many persons freed to choose their own identities will still decide to affiliate along religious, cultural, and national lines.

These arguments are unlikely to carry weight, however, with those whose claim of cultural exceptionalism is only a flimsy disguise for totalitarian tendencies. To some, the problem with freedom is not cultural or social, but political. After the recent victory of reformists in the Iranian parliamentary elections, for example, Ayatollah Mesbah-Yazdi reportedly said that the victorious reformers were more dangerous to the system than a military coup because they promote greater freedom for Iranians to write, read, and behave as they wish. Such an argument is hard to refute. It will be overcome, eventually, by the irresistible forces of modernization and the demands for personal freedom those forces unleash. Meanwhile, however, it is essential to defend the universality of human rights and expose and oppose cultural exceptionalism's self-serving fallacies.

But why bother? If the global triumph of human rights truly is predestined, encoded in the genome of scientific and technological progress, why not simply await the inevitable? One answer is that waiting is immoral. In the short run, scientific and technological progress may actually strengthen the hand of oppression. For women in Afghanistan, Kurds in Iraq, Indians in Fiji, and others, their inevitable liberation is still far away and provides scant comfort.

In harder strategic terms, too, waiting is a flawed approach. Autocratic elites have learned to fight historical inevitability by destroying the engines of social progress. The cultural Luddites of the Taliban, by disempowering women and dismantling their society's educational and health infrastructure, hope to delay their own eventual overthrow. Idi Amin had that in mind when he demolished Uganda's Indian mercantile community in the 1970s. Pol Pot almost succeeded with a similar project in Cambodia. And George Speight recently pursued the same goal in Fiji. Each sought to catapult society back to a premodern age when race or class purification justified everything.

Waiting for the inevitable globalization of personal freedoms is also made untenable by the reviving militance of cultural exceptionalism. From the Balkans to the Horn of Africa, from the southern tier of the former Soviet Union to western China, from Indonesia to Mindanao in the Philippines, extremist tribalism is on the rise. To the extent that this is a political problem -- the use of terrorism and the export of guns and money -- it must be countered by political and economic support for the governments and societies that firmly oppose it.

When such measures fail, international, regional, governmental, and nongovernmental means must be mobilized to carry on the fight against the more egregious forms of cultural oppression. There is no one-size- fits-all solution. In the instance of the Taliban, the U.N. has wielded the stick of nonrecognition and the carrot of food relief. It withdrew relief agencies when Afghan women were arrested for working with its field offices, and it sent them back when those measures were revoked. When a racist government comes to power -- such as Speight's recent junta in Fiji -- the international community has many sanctions that can be deployed to protect universal values. These range from diplomatic nonrecognition to the suspension of air traffic and the withholding of World Bank loans, International Monetary Fund credits, and bilateral trading privileges. They should be used.

Such steps could, for a time, harden the resolve of the cultural extremists. The principal objective of a concerted strategy against cultural extremism, however, must not be the quick reversal of any one outbreak of racism or intolerance, but the forging of a unified global stance against radical cultural exceptionalism in general.

This process will not be easy, for when it comes to global human rights norms, even some U.S. politicians, judges, and intellectuals are quite skeptical of universalism. And a superficial but subtly effective nexus joins the cause of cultural exceptionalism and other forms of resentment against globalization and its alleged parent: Western, or U.S., hegemony. For example, it is not always readily apparent to people why, if France claims the right to protect its culturally unique movie industry, Afghanistan should not protect its policy on women. Leaders of liberal societies everywhere -- political, intellectual, industrial -- are being challenged to defend values and clarify distinctions they may have assumed were self-evident.

If the fight against cultural exceptionalism is to be made effective, it needs military and fiscal resources. It needs a common strategy involving governments, intergovernmental organizations, NGOs, business, and labor. But let there be no mistake: the fight is essentially one between powerful ideas, the kind that shake the pillars of history. It is a deadly earnest conflict between an imagined world in which each person is free to pursue his or her individual potential and one in which persons must derive their identities and meanings exclusively in accordance with immutable factors: genetics, territoriality, and culture.

This, then, is a wake-up call. Waging this war of ideas successfully -- and it cannot be evaded or postponed for long -- will require intellectual rearmament for thinkers lulled by the warm, fuzzy triumph of liberalism and the supposed end of ideology.

Thomas M. Franck is Murray and Ida Becker Professor of Law and Director of the Center for International Studies at New York University's School of Law. He is the author of The Empowered Self: Law and Society in the Age of Individualism.
 
They point scornfully to the degradation of Western women through pornography, prostitution, and other forms of exploitation, and argue that their wives and daughters have been liberated from public obligations to focus instead on home and family.

Nice logic these nutjobs have, when a woman is beaten to death for bringing rape upon herself, children are married and then raped for no purpose but to satisfy the man's desires, and women are treated like private property in ways that makes pornography outright tame in comparison.

So nice of these insane fellows to argue for their own ethnic cleansing as well, by being the bigger evil. :twisted:

And yet, many who still live in this back-assward perspective think that they are somehow excempt from the same scrutiny they constantly put the rest of the world to, not just the West (remember the slaughter of the Hindu?) Islam is so full of itself, it's ridiculous, as is any fundie twit that believes they can put their "religion" as more important than someone else's in any kind of rational discussion.

Well, except for the obvious cults of Mormonism and Scientology, of course.
 
Well, first and foremost the question is:

Who were they poking fun at?

Muslims.

Danish muslims or Arabian muslims?

If they were poking fun at Danish muslims, it's a local affair. If they were poking fun at muslims in the international context, it's a different story.

In the former case, the local laws for freedom of speech and insults apply.

In the latter case, the international laws (are there any about that?) apply.

British and Germans have been poking fun at each other for decades (if not longer) and they're fine with it, because it's more of a friendly kick in the nether regions than a sledgehammer to the face.

With the Arabians (and since it's hard to pinpoint a religion to a single country, the Arabian countries are probably the only thing you can use -- if it was Catholicism, we could point at the Vatican) it's a different story.

Yes, there is freedom of speech in Denmark. The question is however what their laws say about insulting on an international level, especially when it comes to a group so touchy as the muslims.

Muslims per se don't qualify for any special protection. Denmark has no reason to be cautious towards the pride of their own muslims any more than their Christians or Jews or Vikings.

The question is whether there should be a special treatment for Muslims in general within Denmark -- and that's a question of international politics.

Oh, and if a non-muslim Arab (like, a Jew for example -- there are lots of them in Iran and elsewhere) would make such a taunt in an Arab country, the country's laws regarding freedom of speech would apply.

Freedom of speech and the (UN) human rights are not universal. They only apply in countries that accept them.
The EU's human rights for example don't allow the death penalty, whereas the US human rights do. Likewise it's a punishable offense in Germany to publish right-wing propaganda, whereas the US sees that as freedom of speech.

So, should Denmark change its "freedom of speech" granting laws over this? Maybe. But not just to piss off less people. Only if it deems it more beneficial to its international relations.
 
On that perspective, I have to muse on the irony that the Islamic world seems to be loathful towards the West, but when someone makes a poke back at them from a completely different country, these people throw this kind of a shitfit.

Simply put, they need to grow the fuck up and get over themselves, much like the Church had to in a few occasions in Europe or else they were going to lose their heads after the king. What happens in Denmark, on some comic no less, is enough to incite people to kill over thousands of miles away? That is simply immaturity and barbarism at the core.

Well, it looks like only two religions learned from some of the mistakes made throughout the Crusades. Now we wait for Islam to catch up.

My friend from Iraq, immigrated with his family before the first Gulf War, was amazed that he and his family could speak freely, his sister and mother were not constricted to stifling garb, and he even had a sense of humor about religion, because he had seen much of the world already, including Ireland, Oz, NZ, and Japan.

A big problem with most Islamic countries is their ignorance of the rest of the world, which they purposefully keep the peasants ignorant as to use them as a propaganda machine. Kind of like how the War on Terror was used to hype many US citizens for the invasion of Iraq, despite how ignorant most of them were about what was really going on. Really, fashion seems to have more place in the life of most major US city denizens than world events, and that is quite sad.
 
I do not see in why so many people have to suffer due to the contribution of less than a handful of so called cartoonists and a lot of hotheaded Muslims protestors.

Anyone involved in the riots and the making of the cartoons should be made an example of and punished accordingly.

Free speech that gets innocent people killed is not worth defending. Much like MTV.
 
Now shut up or I'll kill you. :D ;)

(Hey, it's your logic!)

So the acts of a religion, or those of a fanatical few, cannot be mocked in the same light as any other public figure, simply because the religion has no real maturity around it. Therefore it should be censored and...oh, shit, there opens a whole new can of worms because now you're CENSORING them. Welcome to the double-edged logic sword of Islam, where you're a damned infidel no matter what you do if you're not Islamic.

Isn't learning fun? :D
 
I claim: Islam is stupid.

A bold claim, but I should have the right to voice this opinion; this theory of mine, regardless if anyone takes offense or not. A "freedom of speech" that allows you to 'say anything you want so long as you don't offend anyone' isn't freedom of speech, and IMO, we need freedom of speech in the free world. I am of this opinion partly because 'nothing is sacred to me', in the sense that there is nothing I think one shouldn't be allowed to joke about. There are no opinions I think should be forbidden.

The muslims are allowed to voice the opinion that Muhammad was a prohpet, and I am allowed to voice the opinion that that Muhammad was a prohpet is a blatant lie. I am not offended by the muslims thinking that Muhammad was a prophet, but the muslims are offended by me thinking that they are stupid to believe such a thing. Should I hence be silenced?

Simply because the muslims have no sense of humor doesn't give them the right to banish all humor from the rest of the world, because "it's not in accordance with Islam and omg we are offended".

Bottom line is, I don't give a fuck if Islam is offended or not.
 
So you're saying it's okay to bring other people into trouble because you happen to develop a need to piss off people who are potentionally dangerous.

Well, I guess you can go and tell that to the families of people who suffered losses because some stoned cartoonists and media-horny presses had to (re)print a bunch of cartoons that were, even though allready proven, very insulting. (Obviously) Ofcourse: You can jabber on about how they shouldn't be insulting because it's free speech.

News flash: The Muslims don't really care. They're out there; they're pissed and we've got some so called artist to thank for that. So much for your free speech. Sounds more like a license to slander.

I'm not condemning free speech. I am just saying that you shouldn't bring other people into trouble because you have a need to slander.

Edit: That applies to any race and religion. It is easy to think that after you have something nasty there is nothing more to be done. Well, experience has taught us that there is something to be done and that's fixing broken relations. Wheter you like the Muslims or not. Unless it all ends in a nuclear holocaust, in which case I'd vote against fixing any type of relations so we can go out and kill mutants.

Now shut up or I'll kill you

In some cases, that'd be necessary.

Anyone who wants to go snipe politicians from clocktowers?
 
RadRaptor said:
So you're saying it's okay to bring other people into trouble because you happen to develop a need to piss off people who are potentionally dangerous.

Wow... Yes, exactly, my argument is based on that I like to provoke and piss people off so that they will, in the best case scenario, bomb my country. (Not).

RadRaptor said:
Well, I guess you can go and tell that to the families of people who suffered losses because some stoned cartoonists and media-horny presses had to (re)print a bunch of cartoons that were, even though allready proven, very insulting. (Obviously) Ofcourse: You can jabber on about how they shouldn't be insulting because it's free speech.
Oh, so that there are violent extremist muslims who will kill to fight free speech is my fault - I should 'go tell the families'? Because some people don't have humor, humor should be silenced? I didn't realize. Yes! We must give the terrorists what they want or they might bomb our countries! Everyone, submit to Islam now!!

I'm not arguing that "they shouldn't be insulting because it's free speech" (not that I would expect you to recognize an argument anyway). I understand that people find these images offensive. However, that shouldn't matter. That people might/will take offense is a price of free speech - a price that I think is worth it.

That muslims are big, dark and won't hesitate to kill infidels is no argument to submit to Islam and surrender free speech.

Ps: I was VERY offended by your post. Please stop posting, or you will be severely disprespecting me and my religion (the RadRaptor-should-not-post Order). If you argue that you have the right to post and voice your opinion anyway, I will bomb your country, and hold you personally responsible. Note that I am only of peaceful intentions and wish you no harm (so long as you don't do anything I don't approve of.)
 
R

I never said humour should be silenced.

You're twisting my words. The sole reason why I refrain from participating in any type of politicial talk.

Anyhow -
humour - not offensive - good
humour - offensive - bad

Wheter it be your friendly jehovah neighbours or the Allahu Akbar yelling fanatics, we all live in the same world and as long as we're not issued guns and a license to kill we're going to have to live and share with 'm and to some extent even respect their presence on our planet.

But like I said: ALL of Those involved should be punished accordingly. Don't twist my words and pretend like I'm favouring the Kuran, I live by another book.

Unless you plan on doing something about them that involves big guns, cigars and tight leather pants,In which case you should contact me so I can join up, no amount of humour, free speech or debate is going to change their minds unless those who have caused the riots (That means the so called artists as well) are punished to show that you can't go and stir up the entire world over a few cartoons.

Seriously, people have got better things to do with their time than to look at badly painted cartoons and kill people over them. Like playing Fallout for example. Which you should be doing as well.
 
Ah yes, and how do you define offensive and in-offensive humour?
Remember, the best humour is often offensive as well.

Now, there is one thing that can be said: the cartoons were probably in bad taste, and hence the authors should not have published them. Fair enough. But to make any form of laws against this is an extremely slippery slope, one that we should never tread on.
 
Luke said:
Petition to make Luke head of the Islamic Church.

Anyway. Why is it that people feel the need to accomodate one religion in a very minor spat which, to be fair, has been plaguing all other religions for centuries. There have been mocking cartoons of Jesus, the Budha, various Hindu Gods ("Please do not offer my god a peanut") for many years, often perpetrated by believers or former believers.

Also, most of the interpretations of Sharia Law that have been quoted in the last few days have stated that pictorial representation of Allah is forbidden, but have not mentioned His prophets (obviously, this is rather widely open to interpretation). Have some people lost sight of what Mohammed was? Do Muslims feel similarly toward the representation of Christ (Also often seen as a prophet of Islam)?


...


RedRaptor said:
Unless you plan on doing something about them that involves big guns, cigars and tight leather pants,In which case you should contact me so I can join up, no amount of humour, free speech or debate is going to change their minds unless those who have caused the riots (That means the so called artists as well) are punished to show that you can't go and stir up the entire world over a few cartoons.
Pehaps I should not bother (tho' I admit that I fail to understand the part about tight pants).
 
Re: R

RadRaptor said:
I never said humour should be silenced.
You specifically said that "ALL of Those involved should be punished accordingly" - or am I "twisting your words" again? Define 'accordingly' in the context - what exactly should be done about this bad, offensive type of humor, and who should decide what qualifies as "offensive" or not? Keep in mind that everything could be considered as offensive to someone. You're not being very specific, at all.

RadRaptor said:
Seriously, people have got better things to do with their time than to look at badly painted cartoons and kill people over them.
Yeah, tell it to the muslims; I'm not the one walking around killing people because they don't agree with me.

Sander said:
Now, there is one thing that can be said: the cartoons were probably in bad taste, and hence the authors should not have published them. Fair enough. But to make any form of laws against this is an extremely slippery slope, one that we should never tread on.
Exactly.
 
RadRaptor said:
So you're saying it's okay to bring other people into trouble because you happen to develop a need to piss off people who are potentionally dangerous.

Wait a moment...so now because some (or rather, most or all) Islamists are immature, we now have to coddle them? Maybe you'd like to explain to my grandfather, a WWII pilot, that they shouldn't have painted any demeaning Memphis Belle-style nose art on their planes, or drawn caricatures of Hitler and other notorious Nazi troops, because that would have made the Nazis kill people.

Oh, wait, the Nazis used pretty much any excuse they wanted to kill people. Just like Islamists are using the cartoon from an entirely different country as a reason to kill people. And yet you are essentially giving them what they want, by being browbeaten down by the threat that they are willing to kill over what commonly goes on in the world with comparatively worse commentary.

Fantastic "logic" again. I suppose you'll be happy when they have whipped you into believing that all parts of your culture offend them so you must conform to their standards, or they will kill people. But you will still be scum, because you are not Islamic.

Is any of this getting through yet?

Unless Islam goes through some sort of maturing process like the Catholic Church and others have, compared to their more brutal days, then Islam will forever be an antagonist looking to kill for any reason. That is how the religion has been structured and formed, with a bit of help from the US' support of fundamentalist Islamic regimes in the past, again thanks mostly to ex-President Worm Food Ronnie Raygun.
 
Wait a moment...so now because some (or rather, most or all) Islamists are immature, we now have to coddle them? Maybe you'd like to explain to my grandfather, a WWII pilot, that they shouldn't have painted any demeaning Memphis Belle-style nose art on their planes, or drawn caricatures of Hitler and other notorious Nazi troops, because that would have made the Nazis kill people.

Now you are comparing cartoonists to World War II soldiers? The disrespect, if I have ever seen any...!

So, according to your "logic" (You people like to dish out this world often, it seems) we're at war with all of the Muslim people and therefore we should be allowed to ridicule them and stick with "our boys" (the cartoonists and the presses)?

Even during war, rules apply. Ever heard of the Geneva convention?

Fantastic "logic" again. I suppose you'll be happy when they have whipped you into believing that all parts of your culture offend them so you must conform to their standards, or they will kill people. But you will still be scum, because you are not Islamic.

A lot of parts in our culture are offensive, but that doesn't mean they (The Muslims) have got a right to go around killing innocent people.

Remember, I'm neither defending the Islam nor defending the offending karikatures I'm simply telling that people involved are going to have be made an example of that such disrespect for both human life and religion can not be tolerated in a society that prefers its free speech free, not painted in the blood of the innocent because some people can't put a lid on their free thinking or fail to comprehend the effects of their actions.

Everyone knows that the Muslims are a flammable type and that they are a danger to the Western world. like you don't play around with matches near flammable liquids, you shouldn't be provoking the Muslims if you value peace.

Like it or not; the Western world is going to have to find some type of compromise between free speech and cultures that might be more restricting. And vice versa. And if someone oversteps that boundary, he or she is going to have to be punished. Without punishment, there is no discipline. Without discipline, people start to go wack.

When you live in a glass house, don't throw stones

Just for the record; I'm not trying to offend anyone's grandfather, neither am I trying to offend any Europeans. I'm not even trying to offend the Muslims (Which is quite difficult). Just the perpetrators who happen to be on both sides and should pay for the great tension they have caused.
 
RadRaptor said:
Now you are comparing cartoonists to World War II soldiers? The disrespect, if I have ever seen any...!

So, according to your "logic" (You people like to dish out this world often, it seems) we're at war with all of the Muslim people and therefore we should be allowed to ridicule them and stick with "our boys" (the cartoonists and the presses)?
Note the use of the word 'islamists' as opposed to 'muslims', and then look up its colloquial meaning.

Rad said:
Even during war, rules apply. Ever heard of the Geneva convention?
So now you're comparing this to a war? The disrespect, if I've ever seen any.
For your information, the Geneva convention has to do with the decent treatment of captured soldiers and civilians. It has nothing to do with insulting use of freedom of speech, since that is not a
concern during war.

Raptor said:
A lot of parts in our culture are offensive, but that doesn't mean they (The Muslims) have got a right to go around killing innocent people.

Remember, I'm neither defending the Islam nor defending the offending karikatures I'm simply telling that people involved are going to have be made an example of that such disrespect for both human life and religion can not be tolerated in a society that prefers its free speech free, not painted in the blood of the innocent because some people can't put a lid on their free thinking or fail to comprehend the effects of their actions.
You want to punish the cartoonists? On what legal ground? Gee, let's punish them for using their right to freedom of speech in a completely legal way, albeit in poor taste.
Sorry, pal, it doesn't work that way. If you do that, you're basically saying that laws can be changed at a whim and be applied retroactively. You're also saying to the muslims 'Sorry that we offended you, we're going to ignore our laws and one of the few core values we have and punish the people involved, just because you didn't like their cartoons.' Lastly, you're selling out the freedom of speech.
See, frowning on those cartoonists for being piss-ants who can't discern humour from plain provocation is nice, but there is no legal or moral basis in Denmark or, in fact, all of the 'Western' world to punish those people.

Raddo said:
Everyone knows that the Muslims are a flammable type and that they are a danger to the Western world. like you don't play around with matches near flammable liquids, you shouldn't be provoking the Muslims if you value peace.

Like it or not; the Western world is going to have to find some type of compromise between free speech and cultures that might be more restricting. And vice versa. And if someone oversteps that boundary, he or she is going to have to be punished. Without punishment, there is no discipline. Without discipline, people start to go wack.

When you live in a glass house, don't throw stones

Just for the record; I'm not trying to offend anyone's grandfather, neither am I trying to offend any Europeans. I'm not even trying to offend the Muslims (Which is quite difficult). Just the perpetrators who happen to be on both sides and should pay for the great tension they have caused.
Let's try to explain this to you again:
A) Cartoonists publish an, arguably tasteless, cartoon.
B) Muslims don't do anything.
C) Imam goes crazy and tries to bring it under attention.
D) Months later, the islamists notice them and go ape-shit, burning embassies and inciting hate.
E) You want the cartoonists to be punished, while the ones at fault here are the islamists for being hot-headed.

Now, let's take this one step further:
Playboy wants to make a local version for Indonesians.
Indonesians use that as an excuse to push through extremely strict, Sharia based, anti-pornography (and anti-short skirts) laws. Well, that's their choice. But now suppose that islamists then start shouting 'The west must suffer for the morality it has brought into the world. Death to Israel/USA/Denmark/whatever.'
According to your logic, we, as the west, should then punish everyone involved in offending those Islamists because those Islamists don't like the way we conduct our lives.
And that's exactly how you let those Islamists tell you how to live your life.

See, asking for more respect both ways and all is nice, but then actually enforcing that through laws or official punishment means you're saying that Western values suck and we should adopt those Islamist values.
 
RadRaptor said:
Now you are comparing cartoonists to World War II soldiers? The disrespect, if I have ever seen any...!

So, according to your "logic" (You people like to dish out this world often, it seems) we're at war with all of the Muslim people
Wow... And you think your words are being twisted?


RR said:
I'm simply telling that people involved are going to have be made an example of that such disrespect for both human life and religion can not be tolerated in a society that prefers its free speech free, not painted in the blood of the innocent because some people can't put a lid on their free thinking or fail to comprehend the effects of their actions.
So you are the advocate of real ultimate free speech? Yeah right. Free thinking with a lid on is not free thinking. And again, "free speech so long as you don't say anything that might be considered offensive to someone" isn't free speech.

RR said:
Everyone knows that the Muslims are a flammable type and that they are a danger to the Western world. like you don't play around with matches near flammable liquids, you shouldn't be provoking the Muslims if you value peace.
So it's a matter of fear, not respect? Or rather, we should respect the terms of the extremist muslims because we fear them?

RR said:
Like it or not; the Western world is going to have to find some type of compromise between free speech and cultures that might be more restricting. And vice versa. And if someone oversteps that boundary, he or she is going to have to be punished. Without punishment, there is no discipline. Without discipline, people start to go wack.
Woah.. What a nice world it would be, if people were punished and diciplined merely for having and voicing opinions that are not politically correct.

Personally, I think that your opinions are sick and a threat to democracy.

Special av, anyone? :twisted:
 
RadRaptor said:
I'm simply telling that people involved are going to have be made an example of that such disrespect for both human life and religion can not be tolerated in a society that prefers its free speech free, not painted in the blood of the innocent because some people can't put a lid on their free thinking or fail to comprehend the effects of their actions.


I strongly disagree on that point. Disrespect of religion is a very important part of freedom of speech, or, more to the point, of freedom itself. Bad enough that those who don't believe have to share the planet with those who do, but at least, let us be allowed to make fun of them. If it means violence and bloodshed ensues, then be it. The cartoonist didn't start anything, the fundamentalist maniacs did ! There is no way i will agree to this "let us be exessively polite to compensate for them being exessively violent" attitude. It took decades of conflict, gallons of blood, and much suffering to bring the catholic church to a "manageable level" (as in not outright burning those who dare disagree with the existence of god), i'd die before letting this be for nothing and bow down before another bunch of "invisible all powerful, and easily pissed-off god" worshipers. :shock:

If one faints at the first sight of blood, one is doomed to fall prey to the dictates of the violent and stupid. :evil:
 
I cannot speak for all legal systems, but generally in criminal law there are two essential elements for a crime-

(1) there must be required mental state- or mens rea. This can be constructed and can be loosely intended, but it is the usually the mental state that defines the difference between intentional, or reckless murder, and manslaughter or negligent homicide.

(2) There must be action- or actus reaus- that actually effectuates that crime.

That which is made criminal normally requires some kind of a harmful action that is distinctive from that normally acceptable.

If you get a bunch of cartoonists who draft a cartoon that pokes fun at some people- that is, in itself, not a harmful act. Some folks might be insulted, sure. But being offended is the price you pay for living in a society in which people are allowed to speak and think for themselves- it is the risk involved of open discourse. On its face, there is no harm done in drawing a cartoon and if someone is insulted, well- that person suffers because of their own particular sensitivity.

If you get a bunch of muslims outside an embassy protesting, shouting- "Down with Denmark! Down with Western Capitalism! George Bush is a a Big Fat Faggot! The Pope is Child Fucker!" And they yell and scream and make hey largely because they are pissed off about a cartoon- hey that's free speech too. They got offended and they are voicing that discontent. Their right or crime is no greater or worse than that of the cartoonists.

That so many are getting pissed off about a cartoon, just reflects that they are a bit more sensitive than the rest of us.

That said, if a bunch of these whackos go protesting, burning buildings, breaking and destroying embassies- than their acts are inherently harmful. Burning a building is an arson, killing someone in a mob is still murder.

There is a distinction.

The more pressing question is whether freedom of speech is a fundamental right that all people should be entitled to based on their faith, or are the Muslims right in saying that this is cultural imperialism- that since they don't accept freedom of speech, than they should not be beholden to the same norms of civility that are found in Denmark. If Westerns think the Muslim protests are outragious, and Muslims think the cartoons are outragious- what you have is a fundamental difference on the source of human rights and social norms.

If so than what we see here is really a clash of civilizations at its most stupid.
 
I prefer to live in a society with a free speech that requires people to grow up and accept that they may be offended by someone else's perception of reality than in absolutely politically correct society that is on verge of religion war.
 
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