I do not think the factions in fallout new vegas are morally grey actually

[Ayelander]

I don't really think its fair to paint every faction with the shades of grey brush. The only two major groups ingame that can use that are the NCR and House, Legion is just far too castrated in content to really be viewed as anything but the bad guy faction. I mean what, the one point every NPC even slightly sympathetic to them is that they cleared out all the raider gangs in their territory. But that's all anyone can give them merit on. Really, their only real problem is that they exist too late to legitimise their reason to exist. People have their shit together for the most part, new cultures are flourishing and Nations are either in their infancy or stepping into their own light. If the Legion was around at the beginning of the new world, sure. But at the point Fallout's America has reached, their brutal way of life is outdated and unneccesary.

As for the 'minor' factions like the Mojave's BoS and Boomers, they're fairly one dimensional. Mojave chapter of the Brotherhood is another case of following the template and never breaking the mold. Understandable and all considering who they are, but besides offering PA training and high end weaponry, they exist to be dickbags that every other faction stomps on. Boomers pretty much live for blowing shit up, another heavily armed isolationist group at the en of the day though. Though I find them endearing. At least they grow as a people and move on after the game's events. These two factions can easily be described as assholes with big guns. I suppose you could also say the same about the Vegas families, they kinda just exist to solidify the casino themes. So I'm not sure if I can consider them factions. They're tribals like the Boomers, so I guess?

Khans are the only minor group with any real presence to be portrayed with any real shades of grey to them. They're still drugged up quasi-raiders but the game goes out of its way to make the player sympathise with them. Bitter Springs, their exploitation by the Legion... Shit, even sending them to self genocide if that's how your Courier rolls. They're a much darker grey than a group like the Kings, but only because of how much they get knocked down.

Shit, what I'm trying to say is that there's no reason black and white has to be a bad thing. If everyone is grey it just blends into the one shade in the end.

 

[l0stII]

Can't agree with this at all.

The NCR offer very few positives to anyone they forcibly annex. They don't provide adequate protection or resources, whilst taxing astronomically. They pretty much roll in, plop down their flag of freedom and democracy, then proceed to drain areas of wealth for the betterment of a select few in California.

They're fighting a war in which they will happily send unequipped, untrained men and women to die whilst keeping their best troops out of the area for pathetic reasons such as personal animosity towards other departments(Oliver vs Hanlon, keeping rangers in Baha), needing to protect certain individuals as they fund your political campaign etc(Keeping heavy troopers protecting farms of rich baron's).


Independent routes are determined solely by your actions as a courier, so can't be judged as good/bad.


It's quite easy to argue against your logic of hating the legion (Not that hating the legion is wrong, but the reasoning you're using, and many others use, is just bad) by using the real life Roman Empire as an example, they made Caesar's legion look like hippies in comparison. They don't just commit RANDOM atrocities, such a comment shows me you don't pay attention to the game ;/

I'm sorry but how is using subversion equal to bad morality, lol?

Total War, rape, slavery, genocide, all perfected by the Roman Empire which gave us sanitation, aqueducts, roads, law, education etc Stop judging an entire culture based on a forward military camp, you wouldn't judge Rome by Caesar's camps in Gaul.


Mr House - Again, you've CLEARLY not researched enough on this game lol. He's the complete opposite of stagnation and his hubris comes not from creating a "theme park" but from being the most successful visionary in human history. He's like a combination of Tesla and Hughes.

 

[NMLevesque]

The NCR offer very few positives to anyone they forcibly annex

if you ignore what they replace.

They don't provide adequate protection or resources, whilst taxing astronomically. They pretty much roll in, plop down their flag of freedom and democracy, then proceed to drain areas of wealth for the betterment of a select few in California.

"Stop judging an entire culture based on a forward military camp" You, moments later.

they made Caesar's legion look like hippies in comparison.

the Roman Empire which gave us sanitation, aqueducts, roads, law, education etc

You keep vacillating between view points. Edward Sallow doesn't provide most of those things. He never instituted a senate, which still existed in some form during the days of Caesars.

Mr House - Again, you've CLEARLY not researched enough on this game lol. He's the complete opposite of stagnation and his hubris comes not from creating a "theme park" but from being the most successful visionary in human history. He's like a combination of Tesla and Hughes.

What is your reasoning here? Stating a position alone doesn't give us any reason to agree.

 

[l0stII]

Forgive my inability to quote separately, clueless of this forums layout.

@NMLevesque

if you ignore what they replace.
---

Examples? You can't roll in onto a persons community, forcibly annex them, tax them and then claim it's justified because by your view, what they had before was worse. Primm doesn't want NCR, Goodsprings doesn't want NCR, Vegas doesn't want NCR. These are all communities getting by quite okay.

---------

"Stop judging an entire culture based on a forward military camp" You, moments later.


That's not what I'm doing, which you'd know if you played the games. This is the NCR's tactic since previous games, not to mention they attack a peaceful super mutant settlement in order to initiate a response that "justifies" the NCR wiping them out.

In the Mojave, it occupied the region, set up military camps, and began annexation without even asking the locals if they want the Republic there. The Desert Rangers requested NCR support, but they did not represent the people of the Mojave. Furthermore, the NCR is effectively eradicating opposition under Kimball's administration. Col. Moore, his attack bitch, deals with problems by wiping them out. Kings? Send a death squad. Brotherhood? Send a death squad. Great Khans? Send a death squad.
The player can subvert the mission and effectively save the people while completing the objectives, Moore is none too happy at that. In the case of the Khans, support for the NCR earns them a barren reservation after the NCR "forgets" the promises it made.

---------

You keep vacillating between view points. Edward Sallow doesn't provide most of those things. He never instituted a senate, which still existed in some form during the days of Caesars.


I think you'll find you're mistaken lol. It's specifically stated that legion territory back East has electricity, clean water, food and safe communities. This is the reason Legion currency is backed by those who are his enemies, because traders, the bread and butter of economy, prefer to trade in Legion territory, giving value to their currency.

I fail to see your point about the senate, it doesn't counter anything I've claimed haha.

---

What is your reasoning here? Stating a position alone doesn't give us any reason to agree.


You don't need to agree, it's factual data.. He's the owner and sole proprietor of RobCo industries, he helped develop Liberty Prime, he calculated the probability and time of Nuclear devastation, being wrong by hours, he developed technology which essentially makes him immortal.. He is literally the ONLY reason New Vegas is a thing...

 

[naossano]

Even in Fo2, they aren't above using deception and proxies, like with the Bishops for Vault City.

 

[NMLevesque]

Forgive my inability to quote separately, clueless of this forums layout.

Copy and paste the first QUOTE thingy in square brackets at the beginning, and then the /QUOTE thingy in square brackets at the end of each quote.

Examples?

They replaced the Desert Rangers who couldn't keep the peace, or stop the Legion. Which was one step away from swarming and enslaving the entire region. Without annexation the area is lawless, and honor system societies don't work. Hence the fact that it's chalk full of raider groups. Which is actually where the Mojave campaign began: eliminating raiders. That's what they do.

People are quick to say 'Legion gets rid of raiders'. Who the fuck is complaining about raiders in NCR territory? No one. They're complaining about being attacked in frontier territory. Where we also don't see the fledgling democracy that is arguably better than a fully-fledged anything else. We don't see them bring the benefit of knowledge, technology, and healthcare that we already know are plentiful in the NCR (thanks to the FotA, but it still applies).

You can't roll in onto a persons community, forcibly annex them, tax them and then claim it's justified

I didn't. You said they didn't offer any positives. I merely stated that one needs to understand what they replace, in order to assess whether it's a better or worse state of affairs.

Primm doesn't want NCR, Goodsprings doesn't want NCR, Vegas doesn't want NCR. These are all communities getting by quite okay.

Where does Primm or Goodsprings specify that? Primm suggests it as an option even. Vegas minus it's large NCR migrant population, Van Graffs, the Kings in certain endings and a bunch of people and groups that don't specify shit (White Gloves) don't want NCR, sure.

That's not what I'm doing, which you'd know if you played the games.

So we can't judge the Legion based on their military camps in game, but we can judge the NCR based on their military camps in game because you made a bald assertion about me? This point is actually about logic. Regardless of that, you can claim to be as big of an expert as you want, but you haven't demonstrated it here.

I think you'll find you're mistaken lol. It's specifically stated that legion territory back East has electricity, clean water, food and safe communities.

sanitation, aqueducts, roads, law,education etc

I fail to see your point about the senate, it doesn't counter anything I've claimed haha.

You're referencing a non-canon post by Josh Sawyer, in an online forum, two years after the game was released. He wrote about what he *wanted* to include. Nice try champ. Looks like you don't know much after all. The funny part is that it wouldn't even work for your point.

To wit: Sanitation is a lot more than clean water, and he didn't actually mention "clean water". Aqueducts are infrastructure to transport water, not a water supply in itself. Building roads isn't mentioned either. Law in Ancient Rome included a Senate, and so much more... Do I need to belabor the point and explain where education falls flat too?

You don't need to agree, it's factual data.. He's the owner and sole proprietor of RobCo industries, he helped develop Liberty Prime, he calculated the probability and time of Nuclear devastation, being wrong by hours, he developed technology which essentially makes him immortal.. He is literally the ONLY reason New Vegas is a thing...

XD "it's factual data"
The post before this one did not contain any facts. It wasn't even an argument. Here you've made a few valid observations, but giving him sole credit for New Vegas is just nonsense.

• The NCR are the only reason the Legion haven't destroyed it.
• The FotA are the only reason its humanitarian crises aren't ten times worse.
• Most importantly, what is New Vegas if not for its people? They made it into something...

Then, just before the NCR showed up, House woke up, walled it off, and started exploiting people through gambling while prolonging a bloody battle whose consequences you place on the NCR, so he can secure a source of revenue and a labor pool with no laws. Sounds like stagnation to me. Which was the original point you still haven't even begun addressing. Also, Liberty Prime didn't work.

 

[l0stII]

People are quick to say 'Legion gets rid of raiders'. Who the fuck is complaining about raiders in NCR territory? No one. They're complaining about being attacked in frontier territory. Where we also don't see the fledgling democracy that is arguably better than a fully-fledged anything else. We don't see them bring the benefit of knowledge, technology, and healthcare that we already know are plentiful in the NCR (thanks to the FotA, but it still applies).

Use your brain lol.. If someone states that the benefit of the Legion (In game) is they offer safety and deter raiders, then by god damned logic the opposite has to have unsafe roads and raider issues.

Cass specifically states the biggest problem with the NCR is they insist on taking land they can't protect/maintain, whilst still taking heavy taxes from the people they forcibly annex. The NCR simply cannot sustain itself AND continue to expand, it's like they have their Rome in Shady Sands, then everything outside is Gaul.

The Legion are only a thing because the NCR couldn't stop raiders in The Boneyard.

I didn't. You said they didn't offer any positives. I merely stated that one needs to understand what they replace, in order to assess whether it's a better or worse state of affairs.

They replace NOTHING.. That's the entire point, people dislike them outside of California because they roll over territory, enforce taxes then roll on to the next settlement without doing anything to improve the previous. Their doctrine is expansion, not sustainability..

I mean, they're running into water problems in California yet they STILL expand. The overarching theme of the NCR in New Vegas is that they can't sustain their current behaviour.

Where does Primm or Goodsprings specify that? Primm suggests it as an option even. Vegas minus it's large NCR migrant population, Van Graffs, the Kings in certain endings and a bunch of people and groups that don't specify shit (White Gloves) don't want NCR, sure.

They both would rather remain independent.

"They're protecting their own. Just happens to help us."
"The New California Republic. Bunch of settlers and soldiers coming in from the West, fixing on making Nevada their own. They can be right pushy, but the roads are safer 'cause of them, so I tend to let it go. Not that I got a choice.

Their town is being attacked by raiders because the NCR are too incompetent at dealing with their prisoners.. The NCR also refuses to deal with the issue because of self inflicted supply problems.

So we can't judge the Legion based on their military camps in game, but we can judge the NCR based on their military camps in game because you made a bald assertion about me? This point is actually about logic. Regardless of that, you can claim to be as big of an expert as you want, but you haven't demonstrated it here.

Nope... Because I'm not doing that, I'm referencing previous games and their expansion tactics which have tied into New Vegas. The NCR have annexed areas of the Mojave, they aren't just here militarily.. They were here BEFORE the Legion. I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just expect you to have a decent knowledge of the game series if you're going to be debating factions and their benefits/negatives.

You're referencing a non-canon post by Josh Sawyer, in an online forum, two years after the game was released. He wrote about what he *wanted* to include. Nice try champ. Looks like you don't know much after all. The funny part is that it wouldn't even work for your point.

To wit: Sanitation is a lot more than clean water, and he didn't actually mention "clean water". Aqueducts are infrastructure to transport water, not a water supply in itself. Building roads isn't mentioned either. Law in Ancient Rome included a Senate, and so much more... Do I need to belabor the point and explain where education falls flat too?

My comment was in response to the claim that slavery, rape, total war are more than enough to disregard a society.
"Total War, rape, slavery, genocide, all perfected by the Roman Empire which gave us sanitation, aqueducts, roads, law, education etc Stop judging an entire culture based on a forward military camp, you wouldn't judge Rome by Caesar's camps in Gaul."

You claimed "Edward Sallow doesn't provide most of those things. He never instituted a senate, which still existed in some form during the days of Caesars."

You cherry picked the Senate of all things lmfao. The Legion provides electricity, clean water, food and safety.

Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).

You can cry foul play that this didn't make it "into the game" but if you think the developer isn't the sole authority on what is and isn't just to fortify your own point then this is a waste of time.

XD "it's factual data"
The post before this one did not contain any facts. It wasn't even an argument. Here you've made a few valid observations, but giving him sole credit for New Vegas is just nonsense.

• The NCR are the only reason the Legion haven't destroyed it.
• The FotA are the only reason its humanitarian crises aren't ten times worse.
• Most importantly, what is New Vegas if not for its people? They made it into something...

Then, just before the NCR showed up, House woke up, walled it off, and started exploiting people through gambling while prolonging a bloody battle whose consequences you place on the NCR, so he can secure a source of revenue and a labor pool with no laws. Sounds like stagnation to me. Which was the original point you still haven't even begun addressing. Also, Liberty Prime didn't work.

I really don't know what to say to this one.. You think he isn't the reason Vegas exists? Have you even exhausted his dialogue lmao? You seem unable to read responses properly which then causes you to make a completely nonsensical response yourself.

No, the Legion do not want to destroy Vegas, another example of your lack of in-game knowledge. Besides, how can a faction that can't beat the Legion, protect Vegas from the Legion? So the Legion can beat House, the NCR can not, but the NCR can protect House from the very same enemy it can't defeat? It's a three way stalemate.

Wrong, Freeside is maintained by the combination of King's security and FotA aide. The only reason there's a humanitarian "crisis" in the first place is due to NCR squatters coming from the West. Let's not forget they refuse to help the people of Freeside because the King's dislike the NCR... Another example of NCR incompetence.

New Vegas wasn't made by people, it was made by the man who preserved it from the bombs along with its infrastructure, the New Vegas "people" were tibial scavengers that had no clue what they were sat upon until House arrived.

 

[Risewild]

Forgive my inability to quote separately, clueless of this forums layout.

Copy and paste the first QUOTE thingy in square brackets at the beginning, and then the /QUOTE thingy in square brackets at the end of each quote.

You can just highlight/select any text from any post and it will appear under the selection a popup with the option "reply", if you click on that "reply", it will quote that part of the post into the one you're writing. You can repeat this to quote several things from several posts into just one.

 

[NMLevesque]

If someone states that the benefit of the Legion (In game) is they offer safety and deter raiders

then it is because they believe it or want you to believe it.

Cass specifically states the biggest problem with the NCR is they insist on taking land they can't protect/maintain

aka the frontier

The Legion are only a thing because

the tribes of Arizona captured Edward Sallow, incidentally but irrelevantly a citizen of the NCR and relevantly a psychopath.

They...roll on to the next settlement without doing anything to improve the previous. Their doctrine is expansion, not sustainability..

When have they ever rolled onto the next without doing anything to improve it? In game they provide Primm with protection immediately after Primm agrees to be annexed (and taxed). Nothing else in game gets annexed (or taxed) until the ending slides.

The overarching theme of the NCR in New Vegas is that they can't sustain their current behaviour

As opposed to...?

Primm doesn't want NCR, Goodsprings doesn't want NCR, Vegas doesn't want NCR. These are all communities getting by quite okay.

"They're protecting their own. Just happens to help us."
"The New California Republic. Bunch of settlers and soldiers coming in from the West, fixing on making Nevada their own. They can be right pushy, but the roads are safer 'cause of them, so I tend to let it go. Not that I got a choice.

Neither of those quotes demonstrates your claim. Nor does bringing up the Powder Gangers.

Nope... Because I'm not doing that, I'm referencing previous games and their expansion tactics which have tied into New Vegas. The NCR have annexed areas of the Mojave, they aren't just here militarily.. They were here BEFORE the Legion. I'm not claiming to be an expert, I just expect you to have a decent knowledge of the game series if you're going to be debating factions and their benefits/negatives.

They don't provide adequate protection or resources, whilst taxing astronomically. They pretty much roll in, plop down their flag of freedom and democracy, then proceed to drain areas of wealth for the betterment of a select few in California.

Dude, if you're going to lie then at least go back and edit your comment to hide the evidence. I could keep going but when you're not making laughable errors, you're just arguing in bad faith. So I have better things to do then hand your ass to you all day. Cheers.

 

[Paladin Hank]

Gentlemen please! Behave yourselves in a courteous manner! There are both relevant and irrelevant arguments in what you both assess.
But @l0stII your claims would hold more legitimacy if you didn't act so immaturely. Your knowledge in the Fallout canon is not superior to others', and downgrading others because, in your opinion, they don't understand Fallout is kinda low. It doesn't help further any sort of discussion, and it doesn't inspire people to argue on the various factions' morality.
Aren't discussions supposed to be about sharing a passion and learning from others? Whats the point of comparing each others dicks? There is none.
And no I'm not a liberal. NCR is shit and I'd rather get molested by NoBark than join them. But sucking Caesar's fat dick all day so I don't end up crucified like fucking Jesus Christo is even worse. Democracies are shit, but Autocracies are a whole other level of shit. Like the ones with carrot bits stuck in 'em.
And yes I'm writing this at 1am.

 

[l0stII]

Gentlemen please! Behave yourselves in a courteous manner! There are both relevant and irrelevant arguments in what you both assess.
But @l0stII your claims would hold more legitimacy if you didn't act so immaturely. Your knowledge in the Fallout canon is not superior to others', and downgrading others because, in your opinion, they don't understand Fallout is kinda low. It doesn't help further any sort of discussion, and it doesn't inspire people to argue on the various factions' morality.
Aren't discussions supposed to be about sharing a passion and learning from others? Whats the point of comparing each others dicks? There is none.
And no I'm not a liberal. NCR is shit and I'd rather get molested by NoBark than join them. But sucking Caesar's fat dick all day so I don't end up crucified like fucking Jesus Christo is even worse. Democracies are shit, but Autocracies are a whole other level of shit. Like the ones with carrot bits stuck in 'em.
And yes I'm writing this at 1am.

If I'm spoken to in a sarcastic manor I'll merely respond in kind :/..

The Legion is clearly barbaric, I just like to argue against those who see the NCR as largely infallible due to their political ideologies. Very few people would make a choice, in a world like Fallout, based on Tyranny vs Democracy, it's all about survival.. If the NCR can't give me water, food and protection, then their ballot paper aint worth shit. It seems people are fine with unsustainable imperialistic expansion if the one doing the expanding has a good PR team

 

[NMLevesque]

I didn't make irrelevant points or initiate disrespect. I responded to both.

 

[l0stII]

I didn't make irrelevant points or initiate disrespect. I responded to both.

That's fine. I apologise for any perceived slights, let us leave it at that