I think i figured out how to make armor penetration finally!

Ok, I'm not sure what values to start using.

It might be easier to do these enchanments for the bullet types. For example, every gun that uses the 10mm JHP has a set damage vs SR or HR armor. (Edit: Scratch this, different guns would make more sense) I could also make it dependant on the player skill with small guns and what not. Higher skill, greater damage, but it'll be a curve instead of a line.

Bottom line is: How complex do you want this, and what do you want me to take into consideration when doing the calculations?
 
It's a cop out, but couldn't you create an alternate version of the gun that uses the different ammo type (the stats of the weapon would reflect this).

When the player stumbles upon the second ammo type, a script could check whether or not he already has a weapon that can "use" it. If he does, the game will place the alternate version of the weapon in his inventory, allowing him to make use of the ammo.
 
Okay, here is the formula I am planning on:

KE ((TH % CND)+IR) + (SR*AD + HR*FD) + (LHR*HHD + HHR*LHD) + (ER*ED)

KE = Kinetic Energy
TH = Threshold
CND = Condition
IR = Impact Resistance
SR = Softness Rating
HR = Hardness Rating
AD = Armor Damage
FD = Fleshy Damage
LHR = Low-Heat Resistance
LHD = Low-Heat Damage
HHR = High-Heat Resistance
HHD = High-Heat Damage
ER = Electrical Resistance
ED = Electrical Damage

Here is an explanation of how the formula works in theory:

KE is the same as the "Damage" specified on each weapon entry and explosion entry. TH is the damage resistance present on armor pieces and helmets, and CND is their condition. IR is the damage resistance *actor value effect* which is granted by things like perks, spells, or enchantments. SR and HR are present as enchantment effects on all armor pieces except headgear (power armor will be scripted to auto-equip the related helmet when you don the body armor itself, and remove it when you take it off). SR and HR represent the armor's resistance to pure physical damage. AD and FD are present on all weapons as enchantment effects with an On-Hit trigger. AD represents damage that penetrates but does not cause significant flesh wounds. FD represents lower-velocity damage that causes significant damage to flesh and internal organs. This is just for the basic setup. Energy-based damage is a little more complicated (and annoying).

First off, the simpler one. ER will be an enchantment effect on all armors, and it will represent the armor's conductivity to electrical current. ED will be an enchantment effect on all *relevant-only* weapons (like the taser or any of the energy weapons). It will also be used by environment sources such as an unprotected live wire, or the lightning bolt from a storm.

Now, the more complex one. Frankly, I dislike these abbreviations... but I could not come up with better. LHR and HHR will be enchantments on all armors. LHR will appear on some effects of perks or chems. LHR represents basic flammability, such as being caught on fire. HHR represents the material's resistance to jumping state due to an extreme shift in temperature. Jumping state means the substance skips a state of matter, such as a rock instantly vaporizing, or a pool of water instantly bursting into a cloud of plasma (and then cooling). LHD is basically the damage from exposure to fire, ie; burning. HHD partly represents the damage dealt by energy sources like high-energy lasers and plasma. Energy weapons (in general) will also utilize ER and ED to suppliment side effects, such as the electromagnetic field of a plasma burst.

This is what the actual core actor values will look like in the GECK:

(original) -> (new)
DamageResist -> ImpactResist
ElectricResist -> Conductivity
EmpResist -> SoftnessRating
EnergyResist -> HardnessRating
FireResist -> Flammability
FrostResist -> Combustibility
PoisonResist -> PoisonResist
RadResist -> RadResist
 
Okay. I'll probably tweak your formula a bit though, but now that I know what you're thinking it'll be much easier to put the numbers down.

I'll have something for you tomorrow afternoon.
 
Finally normal damage calculation in F3. What about frost damage you mentioned before - it could be funny to kill fire ants with fire extinguisher :)

PS. <evil>Tesla gun that can be charged by entering sandstorms :)</evil>
 
Frost resist was going to be used for a super-unique weapon "the cryolator" that bethesda wanted to put in. Most of the data (including the mesh and textures) are already in the game, they're just not being used by anything. The cryothing is really, really odd looking.
 
Dubby;

Here's the first damage chart I've made. It's for melee weapons, I haven't done it against any armor yet, but I wanted to do just this one to see if we're headed in the right direction.
MeleeWPDamage.jpg
 
This stuff is going to appear in F3C once it's done? It seems necessary to implement it in the mod such as that.

Awesome work, for the record. I think I may install F3 once more only because of the work of people such as you, dedicated to making that piece of shit work as it was suppose to.
 
You and me both :lol:

Edit: Those damages are done with 100% Condition on the weapons. I'm working on the armors right now.
Edit2: What the hell do I do about the head armors and such. At the moment I have all the body armors ready to be played with.
 
Sicblades said:
You and me both :lol:

Edit: Those damages are done with 100% Condition on the weapons. I'm working on the armors right now.
Edit2: What the hell do I do about the head armors and such. At the moment I have all the body armors ready to be played with.
Click to expand...

Head armors are very weird. they get added to the total armor rating. you can wear nothing but a power armor helmet, and your whole body is protected.

doing damage with purely enchantment effects mean we can use CTDAs (conditionals) to check where they were hit... and manipulate it accordingly. but, that's alot of extra work and is it really worth it? Would it not just be easier to combine body armor and helmets into j ust "armor", and let folks wear "headgear" that is either for kicks and giggles, or has non-defense related effects? Like... snazzy looking sunglasses? Haha.
 
I dont know if its possible, and how much time would it take... Insted giving DR to helmets, add Critical Chance (somone already did that and uploaded @ nexus) to head making headshots - 1hit = 1kill for at last 1-4lvl opponents (typical raiders w/o helmets, critters etc).

Each headgear based on item lvl:

a) Lower the dmg that Headshot (critical) would make for examp by :

Hockey Mask/Arclight Helmet /Raider Blastmaster Helmet/Raider Psycho-Tic Helmet/Raider Wastehound Helmet/Vault 101 Security Helmet/Makeshift Gas Mask - 15% (1-4lvl, DR 3)

Recon Armor Helmet/Outcast Recon Helmet/Ledoux's Hockey Mask/Talon Combat Helmet - 30% (~4-7lvl, DR 4, Talon mercs would need to wear that headgear :x)

Rivet City Security Helmet/Motorcycle Helmet/Crow's Eyebot Helmet/Combat Helmet/Metal Helmet - 45%

etc.

The best head gear in game would have around 70-80% (T-51b)

b) Lowering the chance to be actualy criticaly hited in head - this imo is better.


Ofcourse the values need tweaking base on last dmg ups in F3C. This bring abit more realism 2 game, but boosting up chance that opponents would spawn with headgear - is needed also (Talons, meaby some kind of new type raiders with combat armour CND ~15%?).
 
Dubby said:
Head armors are very weird. they get added to the total armor rating. you can wear nothing but a power armor helmet, and your whole body is protected.

doing damage with purely enchantment effects mean we can use CTDAs (conditionals) to check where they were hit... and manipulate it accordingly. but, that's alot of extra work and is it really worth it? Would it not just be easier to combine body armor and helmets into j ust "armor", and let folks wear "headgear" that is either for kicks and giggles, or has non-defense related effects? Like... snazzy looking sunglasses? Haha.
Click to expand...

Yup, it would be much easier. I'm going to edit the melee weapon damage too, I'm going to use different values. All the calculations are going to be done with 100% condition. I should have a lot more done by later on this afternoon.
 
I've been wondering about the conditions, actually. It's a little weird that guns can, atleast, wear out and break apart so easily. Sure, they need maintenance, but not that often. I can probably hex the multipliers to a very low decimal, but doing so would also require messing with the condition values for all weapons in the leveled lists, and (considerably) lowering the effect repair has. Not sure about the NPC repair option either, since they just imba-fix anything up to a certain %.

Of course, just turning weapon conditions -off- is also an option. But if armors have it, which they should, it's odd for weapons not to.

co0ki3 said:
I dont know if its possible, and how much time would it take... Insted giving DR to helmets, add Critical Chance (somone already did that and uploaded @ nexus) to head making headshots - 1hit = 1kill for at last 1-4lvl opponents (typical raiders w/o helmets, critters etc).
Click to expand...

All damage dealt to the head automatically do double, period. I've yet to find a multiplier for this, so I it may be hardcoded.
 
Dubby said:
Frost resist was going to be used for a super-unique weapon "the cryolator" that bethesda wanted to put in. Most of the data (including the mesh and textures) are already in the game, they're just not being used by anything. The cryothing is really, really odd looking.
Click to expand...

So it could be feasible to put the weapon in game?

Because Fallout 3 could really use a more varied selection of weapons.
 
Man I didn't realize how much I bit off when I said I'd do this lol. I'm still working on it, I doubt I'll have too much done today though.
 
Hi there!
Lurker here, and quite a long-time ES modder (I mostly modded Morrowind, being rather disgusted by Oblivion).
Here I've a smallish proof-of-concept mod I've made:

Multiple Ammo types for weapons

Being just a proof of concept, it's only for 10mm pistol, however it does illustrate how transparent for the player it can be made.

(From readme)

Once you equip the weapon from your inventory, it will simply equip the item if you only have normal rounds for it, will automatically switch for AP if you only have AP rounds, and will ask you if you want to load the gun with AP or normal rounds in case you have both.
Vice versa when you have 'Ap rounds loaded' version of the gun.

In the commends, there was a good idea about having multiple 'modes' for weapon this way, even w/o ammo types. For instance, switching between weapon and underbarrel GL, switching firing modes (auto/single), etc.

Still a hack, of course, but engine would simply not allow anything like that otherwise.
Of course, making AP rounds MATTER is an entirely different business - that the point of this tread.

But, enchantment idea, while good, does have it's drawbacks (thought about it myself, btw).
It would not allow for damage increases from skill... but question is, SHOULD there be increase of weapon damage from skills? It's not cannon, and it's not logical, too. Damage should come from accuracy and perks.

Next, what about critical strikes?
But I guess it could be worked around, too - just add appropriate weakness to damage type, 100% in case of 'normal' critical, and extra 20% with perks.
Kinda logical, if you ask me.

The alternative method would be to up the critical mult to 100%, and make damage PURELY scripted, via crit effects.
And with scripts, MUCH more can be done, including thresholds, colorful critical hits descriptions, instakills and whatnot. But it will involve much more work in the scripting department, and some things might not be possible (or vice versa - GECK is really greatly improved in comparison to CS, and there is script extender already available).
 
Balor said:
Hi there!
Lurker here, and quite a long-time ES modder (I mostly modded Morrowind, being rather disgusted by Oblivion).
Here I've a smallish proof-of-concept mod I've made:

Multiple Ammo types for weapons

Being just a proof of concept, it's only for 10mm pistol, however it does illustrate how transparent for the player it can be made.

(From readme)

Once you equip the weapon from your inventory, it will simply equip the item if you only have normal rounds for it, will automatically switch for AP if you only have AP rounds, and will ask you if you want to load the gun with AP or normal rounds in case you have both.
Vice versa when you have 'Ap rounds loaded' version of the gun.

In the commends, there was a good idea about having multiple 'modes' for weapon this way, even w/o ammo types. For instance, switching between weapon and underbarrel GL, switching firing modes (auto/single), etc.

Still a hack, of course, but engine would simply not allow anything like that otherwise.
Of course, making AP rounds MATTER is an entirely different business - that the point of this tread.

But, enchantment idea, while good, does have it's drawbacks (thought about it myself, btw).
It would not allow for damage increases from skill... but question is, SHOULD there be increase of weapon damage from skills? It's not cannon, and it's not logical, too. Damage should come from accuracy and perks.

Next, what about critical strikes?
But I guess it could be worked around, too - just add appropriate weakness to damage type, 100% in case of 'normal' critical, and extra 20% with perks.
Kinda logical, if you ask me.

The alternative method would be to up the critical mult to 100%, and make damage PURELY scripted, via crit effects.
And with scripts, MUCH more can be done, including thresholds, colorful critical hits descriptions, instakills and whatnot. But it will involve much more work in the scripting department, and some things might not be possible (or vice versa - GECK is really greatly improved in comparison to CS, and there is script extender already available).
Click to expand...

Holy Grail of ammo types :D
 
Balor said:
Hi there!
Lurker here, and quite a long-time ES modder (I mostly modded Morrowind, being rather disgusted by Oblivion).
Here I've a smallish proof-of-concept mod I've made:

Multiple Ammo types for weapons

Being just a proof of concept, it's only for 10mm pistol, however it does illustrate how transparent for the player it can be made.

(From readme)

Once you equip the weapon from your inventory, it will simply equip the item if you only have normal rounds for it, will automatically switch for AP if you only have AP rounds, and will ask you if you want to load the gun with AP or normal rounds in case you have both.
Vice versa when you have 'Ap rounds loaded' version of the gun.

In the commends, there was a good idea about having multiple 'modes' for weapon this way, even w/o ammo types. For instance, switching between weapon and underbarrel GL, switching firing modes (auto/single), etc.

Still a hack, of course, but engine would simply not allow anything like that otherwise.
Of course, making AP rounds MATTER is an entirely different business - that the point of this tread.

But, enchantment idea, while good, does have it's drawbacks (thought about it myself, btw).
It would not allow for damage increases from skill... but question is, SHOULD there be increase of weapon damage from skills? It's not cannon, and it's not logical, too. Damage should come from accuracy and perks.

Next, what about critical strikes?
But I guess it could be worked around, too - just add appropriate weakness to damage type, 100% in case of 'normal' critical, and extra 20% with perks.
Kinda logical, if you ask me.

The alternative method would be to up the critical mult to 100%, and make damage PURELY scripted, via crit effects.
And with scripts, MUCH more can be done, including thresholds, colorful critical hits descriptions, instakills and whatnot. But it will involve much more work in the scripting department, and some things might not be possible (or vice versa - GECK is really greatly improved in comparison to CS, and there is script extender already available).
Click to expand...

Ah, that's precisely what I was planning to do. Use OnEquip and OnUnequip so both the player and npcs would operate correctly. However I also need to rewrite numerous AI packages so they're not quite as ignorant and retarded... and so they know how to switch ammo types.

Switching firing modes is also doable, but a little more complicated than just ammo as it has alot to do with getting the timing *just right*, and it has to work with the animations properly.

Hehe, you'd think that about enchantments... but infact that is not the case! ;) The amount can be modified by a skill of the actor in real time. And I'm not talking about lots and lots of conditional statements either, there's a function that already exists that specializes in this. Take a look at stimpaks or RadAway to see what I mean.

Critical damage is debatable, because you have to ask "where" the damage comes from. I had planned for crit damage to be based solely on kinetic energy.

The downside to using scripts for damage is it would absolutely be more computation intensive, and since damage relies on a pre-defined resistance factor, a secondary factor can be added with a conditional (a threshold if you want) via the method I mentioned above.

I have not spent a great deal of time looking into the geck yet, because we are still working on the plans for the damage and defense formulas.

Would you perchance be interested in joining the f3c team?
 
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