Idea: Gambling to Deception - possible or not?

[Ardent]

I was recently reflecting on ways to make rare skills more useful. This has given me the idea to replace the Gambling skill with another skill entirely. It came to my mind that diplomatic characters are easier to create, because there is only one essential skill you need to pick - Speech.

Therefore, I thought about replacing the Gambling skill with the Deception skill, akin to the developers' idea from Van Buren - to split Speech into several skills. This way, a good diplomatic character will need to tag Speech and Deception (Gambling) to handle all situations, just like the Stealthy character needs to tag Steal, Lockpick and Sneak, and the Fighter character - any combination of the main 6 combat skills.

To be honest, changing the skill description and art is very easy. The only problem would be the initial way of calculating the skill - AFAIK, it's hardcoded in the engine.

My questions to the community:
1. Do you like this idea? Why? Why not? Would you like to see it in my mod?
2. Is it possible to change the calculation method of skills? If yes, who could do it for me/tell me how to do it?
3. Do you think gambling could be handled by Luck rolls alone, or should the Deception skill be still used to handle gambling situations?

Note that I'm talking about this mostly in the context of Ardent's F2 Mod. Introducing this change to other mods would require their authors to revise all/most scripts.

 

[Lexx]

I thought about similar for my Fallout 2 mod but haven't done it in the end. It is possible, especially because the only thing that the gambling skill is influencing are the casino games, which could easily be edited in their script.

It is possible to either hack the fallout2.exe and change the skill calculation or - in older version - you could also do it via Sfall. I don't think that it's still possible, because something was changed a while ago.

Still, doing such thing would include, that a lot dialogues should be edited and adjusted, so that this new skill would make any sense. Guess it would be easier to simply use it in a total conversion, which is taking this into account from the very beginning... but well, we all know that this will never happen.

 

[Ardent]

Still, doing such thing would include, that a lot dialogues should be edited and adjusted, so that this new skill would make any sense. Guess it would be easier to simply use it in a total conversion, which is taking this into account from the very beginning... but well, we all know that this will never happen.

Yes, that's why I was talking about it thinking about my mod, which is a TC. In fact, I would only replace some Speech tests with Deception tests when needed (either in the existing scripts or in new ones).

 

[x'il]

(...)In fact, I would only replace some Speech tests with Deception tests when needed (either in the existing scripts or in new ones).

The whole idea sounds very interesting, and if you're gonna go about it as you say in this comment above, may i suggest taking this new deception skill as a 'paired' skill, i mean, (if it's possible and not too much trouble, of course, i don't know any scripting) having the checks for it always be paired up with speech checks, so sucess would require x percentage of speech + x percentage in deception... it would just make sense i think.

 

[Ardent]

The whole idea sounds very interesting, and if you're gonna go about it as you say in this comment above, may i suggest taking this new deception skill as a 'paired' skill, i mean, (if it's possible and not too much trouble, of course, i don't know any scripting) having the checks for it always be paired up with speech checks, so sucess would require x percentage of speech + x percentage in deception... it would just make sense i think.

It is possible and not very difficult either. But Deception wouldn't need any support from Speech anymore (IMHO), especially if the calculation formula was different. Furthermore, Speech could be renamed to Persuasion, as it was supposed to be in Van Buren.

Example:

Speech --> Persuasion: Calculating formula remains unchanged (5xCH). Used only to convince other people to do things your way.
Gambling --> Deception: Calculating formula changed, e.g. to 3xCH+2xLK. Used only to lie to people and not get caught.

This way Deception and Persuasion would have their separate tasks and wouldn't need to overlap. That's how I see it. But I'm open to suggestions. So, X'il, why would you exactly want it to be a paired skill?

***

@Lexx: Do you know of any way that I could hack fallout2.exe to change the formula? I'm really bad at programming (or rather - I'm completely devoid of any knowledge/skill whatsoever), so if it's something complex, I'll need to ask help from someone more insightful in these matters than I.

 

[x'il]

(...) So, X'il, why would you exactly want it to be a paired skill?

Well, first, it would make sense, second, it would have more 'difficulty' this way; with deception-only checks on some specific dialogs a player could neglect the speech skill and only raise deception and still be able to have success at lying, whereas the same dialog having a 'paired' check would 'force him' to play the role of a charismatic, lucky, deceiving person who also has the appropiate words to make a lie work in a situation (that is, it would force the player to pay mind to the speech skill as well if he wants to succeed). Third, it would be a bit more 'obscure' (which i like); a player may have enough of one to succeed but not enough of the other so the end result is faliure, i think that would make the player consider his skill raising development a bit more thoughtfully. And finally, i like interconectivity between different skill and/or stats, makes for having to play very specific character builds in order to achieve the desired success in certain paths.

 

[Lexx]

@Lexx: Do you know of any way that I could hack fallout2.exe to change the formula? I'm really bad at programming (or rather - I'm completely devoid of any knowledge/skill whatsoever), so if it's something complex, I'll need to ask help from someone more insightful in these matters than I.

Nah, sorry. I am not good in that exe hacking stuff. Also it would be better if we could get kind of "offical support" from Timeslip and Sfall for this (changing skill calculation formular and skill vault boy image), because it would be much better. I think Sfall doesn't like modified fallout2.exe files anyway.

Right now, I am thinking about getting back to the old idea and include this in my mod as well. It's still possible...

 

[Ardent]

Well, first, it would make sense, second, it would have more 'difficulty' this way; with deception-only checks on some specific dialogs a player could neglect the speech skill and only raise deception and still be able to have success at lying, whereas the same dialog having a 'paired' check would 'force him' to play the role of a charismatic, lucky, deceiving person who also has the appropiate words to make a lie work in a situation (that is, it would force the player to pay mind to the speech skill as well if he wants to succeed). Third, it would be a bit more 'obscure' (which i like); a player may have enough of one to succeed but not enough of the other so the end result is faliure, i think that would make the player consider his skill raising development a bit more thoughtfully. And finally, i like interconectivity between different skill and/or stats, makes for having to play very specific character builds in order to achieve the desired success in certain paths.

These are very interesting thoughts. If I succeed at implementing the changed skill, I will definitely give it a try.

The problem I see here is that if you couple these two skills, you may have to couple other skills as well, such as steal and sneak or lockpick and sneak (you want to steal/open doors undetected, right?), though TBH, I've already used the lockpick-sneak combination (if someone is watching the door, you cannot get it open when you're not sneaking without them noticing, you also have to pass a successful Sneak roll to open the door undetected). Also, I can imagine situations that could combine Science and Doctor, or Science and Repair.

This will make the game less flexible in making your character choices. The question is - is this something players would want in Fallout?

@Lexx:

Indeed, the hacked .exe files could conflict with sfall. I also agree that making the skill counting formulas editable would be (very) nice!

 

[Lexx]

I've added it to the Sfall request page in the modding wiki.

 

[Ardent]

I've added it to the Sfall request page in the modding wiki.

Great, thanks!

 

[lisac2k]

Personally, if I'd start working on a new mod (i. e. total conversion), I'd rather try to provide a way to make the existing gambling skill usefull in some way or another... Replacing it would be everything Lexx said, so I don't have to repeat it myself once more.

Making a small mod for the original game which would replace the gambling skill with something more useful sounds interesting as well, but does require some heavy workarounds. Maybe everything becomes very depending on Sfall in the end, so you might wanna wait a while and hear what Timeslip has to comment on the issue.

I fing the gambling skill to be somewhat funny, but still fitting to the world somehow (it's just design that needs to support it properly in order to have fun or to make sense playing such character).

Overall, your idea sounds very good.

 

[Lexx]

Well, I personally have absolutly no idea how gambling could be improved. The only more or less logic way would be to add it into speech checks or repair, etc. as the kind of "luck factor" in it. Still, if you use it for speech, you could as well rename it into deception, if you use it for science or repair related things.. well.. I don't think it fits good.

 

[John B.]

Taking a gamble on what you are saying? Wouldn't the skill be one of the most important things in the game? How likely you are to win wen taking a gamble.
Enclave at navaro: no password no admiance.
1 here's your password
2 geuss password [gamble]

 

[Ardent]

Personally, if I'd start working on a new mod (i. e. total conversion), I'd rather try to provide a way to make the existing gambling skill usefull in some way or another... Replacing it would be everything Lexx said, so I don't have to repeat it myself once more.

(...)

I fing the gambling skill to be somewhat funny, but still fitting to the world somehow (it's just design that needs to support it properly in order to have fun or to make sense playing such character).

I've put some thought into using Gambling more often and I've devised a few quests which contain a "gambler boy" approach, i.e. can be solved with gambling. But it's still very little and I cannot imagine a player spending points on Gambling only to solve 5-ish quests in a different fashion and play a few luck games.

Then I thought that gambling could be interpreted as the ability to bluff, i.e. deceive people. Thus I came to the conclusion that I could turn it into a full-fledged diplomatic ability altogether.

Well, I personally have absolutly no idea how gambling could be improved. The only more or less logic way would be to add it into speech checks or repair, etc. as the kind of "luck factor" in it. Still, if you use it for speech, you could as well rename it into deception, if you use it for science or repair related things.. well.. I don't think it fits good.

We're basically of the same opinion here. The 'luck factor' in repair/science checks could be more adequately pictured with a Luck roll (which also is used too little IMO). So if this modification would be possible with sfall, I'm gonna go for it and see how it plays out.

 

[x'il]

The problem I see here is that if you couple these two skills, you may have to couple other skills as well (...)

Why? other skills are, let's say, self-contained activities, whereas this new skill you want to create is something derived from the speech skill and is just taking on some of its functions.

This will make the game less flexible in making your character choices. The question is - is this something players would want in Fallout?

Taken to it's ultimate conclusion, sure, it would be very 'restricting' and would require a different approach to fallout mod design... but speaking only about the modified gambling skill you want to try; keeping it in check and using such skill pairing in some specific circumstances would be ok i think, after all it would be just the same speech skill split into two, a simple compromise, methinks, that'd ensure players stick to a fully (or nearly) diplomatic character by having to spend their skill points on both, for in the end, spliting the speech skill into two skills comes to as a way to reduce the amount of skill points the player would have at his/her disposal to increase something else instead... Which i'm guessing is the purpose of this modification idea... so why not go all the way and make sure the player spends as you want them to spend if they want to try a diplomatic path instead of giving them a 'way out' by having the skills un-paired?

 

[Ardent]

Why? other skills are, let's say, self-contained activities, whereas this new skill you want to create is something derived from the speech skill and is just taking on some of its functions.

It depends on how you look at it. If Lockpick, Sneak, Steal and Traps were originally pooled into one skill called Thievery, and I wanted to split them, you'd maybe say that these skills should be coupled, because they are derived from Thievery. Especially Sneak and Steal make a lot of sense in this respect (you want to pick pockets undetected). But Steal contains already this notion of sneakiness, right? One could assume that Deception contains already the assumption that you know the correct words to make your lie believable.

(...) speaking only about the modified gambling skill you want to try; keeping it in check and using such skill pairing in some specific circumstances would be ok i think, after all it would be just the same speech skill split into two, a simple compromise, methinks, that'd ensure players stick to a fully (or nearly) diplomatic character by having to spend their skill points on both, for in the end, spliting the speech skill into two skills comes to as a way to reduce the amount of skill points the player would have at his/her disposal to increase something else instead... Which i'm guessing is the purpose of this modification idea... so why not go all the way and make sure the player spends as you want them to spend if they want to try a diplomatic path instead of giving them a 'way out' by having the skills un-paired?

Since the majority of diplomatic solutions would be either based on Deception or Persuasion, it will come naturally that these two skills should be developed in unison. Therefore, it seems to me that coupled checks will only be used in some specific circumstances (like sometimes Lockpick and Sneak need to be tested at the same time) but not all the time.

I wouldn't want to forcibly make players develop both skills, as you can create a character with tagged small guns, steal and science. You're not a stealth character, since you can only steal, you're a pitiful warrior, because you can only use one type of weapon and you're a lousy scientist-type character, because you cannot heal or repair things. But still you may perform well in some of the situations, even though you're not a specialist in any of the approaches.

 

[Lexx]

Well, thats where the dialogue writer hits in. You have to write the dialogues in a way that it should be possible to pass dialogues with speech alone and / or with deception still alone. Of course, I am not saying it should be always like this. Both things could lead to different outcomes: full win, half win, fail.

So you could say, if player has both speech and deception > x, he gets a full win in speech check. If he just has let's say speech > x and deception not, it is a half win of the check. If the player has none of them > x, it's a natural fail.

This could varying from dialogue to dialogue, depending on about what you talk and with who.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

Did you end up doing this? Because I think it's a great idea and would like to try and implement it in the regular game at some point in the future.

I just don't like the idea of speech and deception being "partner skills". In my view, speech should become the ability to reasonably argue your case, while deception becomes the ability to, well, deceive and recognize the deception of others.

The current dialogue checks are mainly like this:

Speech: mostly for deceiving and charming.
Intelligence: Making a carefully argued case/saying something bright.

With deception added, we can remove intelligence from speech checks altogether because (a) intelligence is already overpowered, and (b) why should every intelligent character be a brilliant conversationalist - what happened to the introverted genius? So I would change it to this:

Speech: Making a carefully argued case.
Deception: Deceive, and recognize deception (you really should be able to see through Jo's transparent lie that he can offer you the GECK)
Charisma: charm (charisma should play a lot bigger role in conversations)

 

[Ardent]

Did you end up doing this? Because I think it's a great idea and would like to try and implement it in the regular game at some point in the future.

Yeah, Timeslip enabled the editing of skill formulas, so I renamed Speech to Persuasion and remade Gambling into Deception (4xCH + LU IIRC), and replaced Speech checks with Deception checks where applicable. All gambling is now handled with either Luck alone or a mix of Luck and Deception (depending on whether you play a regular game or if you play dirty). I haven't tested it much though.

I just don't like the idea of speech and deception being "partner skills". In my view, speech should become the ability to reasonably argue your case, while deception becomes the ability to, well, deceive and recognize the deception of others.

I've finally decided against making them partner skills. But usually, to win your diplomacy challenges, you need to have good Persuasion (Speech), good Deception and good Barter. If you fail in one check, you might only get half the benefits or none at all (something along the lines of what Lexx suggested a couple of posts back).

Speech: mostly for deceiving and charming.
Intelligence: Making a carefully argued case/saying something bright.

With deception added, we can remove intelligence from speech checks altogether because (a) intelligence is already overpowered, and (b) why should every intelligent character be a brilliant conversationalist - what happened to the introverted genius? So I would change it to this:

Speech: Making a carefully argued case.
Deception: Deceive, and recognize deception (you really should be able to see through Jo's transparent lie that he can offer you the GECK)
Charisma: charm (charisma should play a lot bigger role in conversations)

We follow a slightly different philosophy at Mutants Rising. MR doesn't have the Deception skill, we left Gambling as it was originally, but our diplomatic options are split into several skills and attributes:

Speech: Flamboyant display of eloquence to impress your interlocutor, deceiving or making carefully argued cases that don't require much extracurricular knowledge. For cases where you need to talk in-depth about science (various domains), we use Science, Doctor, Repair and even Outdoorsman.

Examples:
#1

NPC: Why should I give you this uber-epic weapon?
PC: So I can smite thy enemies with radioactive fire, and whisper your name in their ears, as they face their hour of demise, gushing blood and spilling intestines on the ground.
NPC: Wow! Ok!

#2

NPC: Hey, aren't you that one dude who killed our boss?
PC: Me? You're joking, right? That guy fled into the desert when he learned we were coming for him. He only had his blue pyjamas on. I bet he's vulture food by now.
NPC: Serves him right.

#3

NPC: You were to bring me guns in a given time and I don't care if the merchant you were supposed to get them from is dead or not.
PC: Mr. X, you are a wise and fair leader and I understand that you are upset about the delays, but surely you agree that the untimely death of the merchant is a serious setback and I cannot possibly see the deal to conclusion within the previously agreed timeframe, since it didn't account for looking for another dealer, did it?
NPC: Well, I guess there's some merit to what you're saying. Okay, you've got four more weeks. And not a minute longer!

Barter is used for haggling and all kinds of negotiations.
Example:

NPC: You were to bring me guns in a given time and I don't care if the merchant you were supposed to get them from is dead or not.
PC: Look, I understand you're pissed, but you need those guns, right? You can either give me 4 weeks extra, or you can fire me, spend two weeks looking for another merc, then wait for another 8 weeks until he manages to reach a supplier and make the transaction. The choice is yours.
NPC: [Twitches uncomfortably] Okay, you've got four more weeks.
PC: And a 50% raise.
NPC: What?! That's out of the question!
PC: Four against ten, remember?
NPC: [Looks at you with disgust] Twenty five percent. And don't push it.
PC: Fine. See you later.

Intelligence is used when a dialogue option involves understanding how something works, or connecting two or more facts/events.

Example:

PC: Is it true that a secret military installation is located nearby?
NPC: I don't know nothing about no underground bunker!
PC: I didn't say it was underground. So, what do you know about it?
NPC: *sigh* Fine, I'll tell you.

Perception is a prerequisite for noticing other people's emotions, hear them mumbling under their noses and recognise deception.

Example:

NPC: Sure, I can patch your friend right here. I'm *such* a good doctor! [You notice he is sweating profusely]
PC: Are you sure? You're extremely fidgety for an experienced surgeon. Doesn't that affect your precision?
NPC: Okay, fine, I'm not a surgeon. I just need the cash.

Charisma is used when you want to impress people with your charm, or intimidate them (in the latter case, we also use Strength or traits such as Bruiser, or karma titles, such as Champion or Berserker). It doesn't require much eloquence, in fact, most of our Charisma options are phrased rather plainly.

Examples:
#1

NPC: Why should I give you this uber-epic weapon?
PC: Because I'm such a nice and trustworthy guy [Give her your best smile]
NPC: Well, OK!

#2

NPC: Give me all your money.
PC: [Give him a killer look instead]
NPC: [Shivers] On second thought, keep'em.

Depending on the intended difficulty of a diplomatic challenge, you need to use more or fewer skills/attributes to succeed. For instance, you may be tested for Barter, Speech and Charisma, all in one conversation. Alternatively, you may be tested several times for one skill, but the difficulty is higher each time. This happens for example in one of the quests where you have a hostage situation, and you have to stall for time, until snipers get in position and take out the baddies. You may also have a couple of possible ways of succeeding. As seen in one of the above examples, you can get out of a sticky situation with either Speech or Barter.