Iran votes the hard liner- or didn't you see this coming?

welsh

Junkmaster
Another election and instead of a moderate they voted the hard line religious conservative?

Why?

Was it all the appeal of crass westernism? Was it a desire to reign in those crazy kids? The appeal of religious fundamentalism?


Victory for a religious hardliner in Iran

Jun 25th 2005
From The Economist Global Agenda

In Iran’s presidential election, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, a hardline religious conservative, has beaten Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a pragmatic ex-president who had painted himself as a cautious reformer. Whether Mr Ahmadinejad won by fair means or foul, Iran looks like turning its back on reform—and perhaps on the outside world.

But what kind of Iran? A more militant Iran? One that is willing to spread its influence into Afghanistan?

Can Iran turn its back on the outside world more than it already has?

WAS it a backlash by Iran’s devoutly Muslim poor against a corrupt elite? Or was it a massive fraud perpetrated on the people by the hardline clerics? Perhaps it was a bit of both. Whatever the case, the margin of victory for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in the second round of Iran’s presidential election, on Friday June 25th, was striking. Mr Ahmadinejad, the mayor of the capital, Tehran, and a hardline religious conservative, garnered around 62% of the vote, despite having gone almost unnoticed in the field of seven candidates who had contested the first round of voting, a week earlier.

The backlash by the Muslim poor argument is not a bad one as those who support Muslim governments are often those left behind by globalization.

Of course corruption/ fraud might also be a good argument- as the mullahs also control much of the economy and

Surprise victory.
One theory that's not here- the threat from the US on its borders?

It was a crushing defeat for Mr Ahmadinejad’s opponent, Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, a powerful former president (1989-97) and former speaker of the Iranian parliament—who had seemed the favourite from the moment he decided to run. Mr Rafsanjani, a pragmatic conservative who had restyled himself as a cautious reformer, had been expected to face an out-and-out moderniser in the run-off. Thus it had looked possible, whatever the outcome, that Iran’s modest economic and social reforms of recent years would continue if not accelerate, and that its relations with the West—America, especially—might improve. Immediately after the first round, in which Mr Ahmadinejad came second and thus won a place in the run-off, it looked possible that reformists’ votes would transfer to Mr Rafsanjani and guarantee his victory.

Or was that just wishful thinking?

So what happened? At the end of the first round, one of the defeated reformists, Mehdi Karrubi, complained that the vote had been fixed. There were indeed some suspicious circumstances: for example, in South Khorasan province, home to many disgruntled Sunni Muslims, the official turnout was an improbable 95%; yet Mr Ahmadinejad, the candidate most associated with the assertive Shia Islamism of Iran’s clerical regime, won more than a third of the votes there. And while Friday’s second-round vote was still going on, Mr Rafsanjani’s aides were complaining of “massive irregularities”, accusing the Basij religious militia—in which Mr Ahmadinejad used to be an instructor—of intimidating voters to support their man.

Again, no great surprises here. Naturally the religious conservatives would want to hold on to power by means fair or foul.

However, whatever the extent of any vote-rigging, it seems unlikely that it was the only reason why Mr Rafsanjani did so badly. Conservative-minded Iranians, especially the devoutly Muslim poor, seem to have warmed to the austere Mr Ahmadinejad because of his modest lifestyle, his personal honesty and his reassuringly insular vision.

Mr Ahmadinejad presented himself as a committed follower of Iran’s 1979 Islamic Revolution and of the country’s Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei; and he pledged to put the interests of the poor at the top of his priorities. In this he seems successfully to have tapped popular resentment at the country’s elite, widely held to be enriching itself corruptly. The wheeler-dealing and allegedly highly wealthy Mr Rafsanjani is seen as the very embodiment of that elite. Whereas Mr Rafsanjani argued for improved relations with America and increased foreign investment in Iran, Mr Ahmadinejad insisted there was no need for any rapprochement with the “Great Satan”, as official Iranian demonology labels the superpower.

Ironic that the same group that made his country poor, can use the poverty to stay in power. That said, maybe Rafsanjani has been living a bit too good.

And how can you trust anyone who does business with a Great Satan?

Mr Rafsanjani and other reform-minded candidates courted—unsuccessfully, it would seem—Iran’s sizeable youth vote, by promising to continue the limited social liberalisation seen under the outgoing president, Muhammad Khatami. Young Iranians have begun to enjoy greater freedom in such things as how they dress and how they mix with the opposite sex. This now looks likely to go into reverse under Mr Ahmadinejad.

Party days in Iran are soon to be over. Back to the mosque!

Now, with a religious hardliner in the presidency, the conservatives’ grip on all levels of power seems unshakeable

Mr Khatami’s attempts at advancing liberalisation were constantly overruled by Ayatollah Khamenei and the Council of Guardians, a hardline group of clerics and Islamic jurists. In the last parliamentary elections, in early 2004, these unelected theocrats barred many reformists from standing, with the result that conservatives regained control of the parliament. Now, with a religious hardliner in the presidency, the conservatives’ grip on all levels of power seems unshakeable.

Worth raising the question whether the reformers really had a chance at liberalizing the country.

Thus the prospects look bleak for any sort of breakthrough in the issue that most interests the outside world—Iran’s apparent attempts to learn the techniques for making nuclear bombs. Given the sensitivity of the issue, during the election campaign not even the most reformist candidates dared to call for Iran to give up its nuclear ambitions and co-operate with the International Atomic Energy Agency. Mr Ahmadinejad is least likely of all to press the clergy and its allies in the military to do so. As for trying to get along with Uncle Sam, the president-elect said during his campaign that: “Relations with the United States are not a cure to our ills.”

Not only are nukes good against possible foreign invasion, but they are big sellers to nationalists.

The North Korean option
Though poor and jobless Iranians have been drawn to Mr Ahmadinejad by his pledges to combat poverty, he seems the last person to bring about the opening-up of Iran’s sickly, state-controlled economy that is needed. Unemployment is officially at 11%, though the true figure may be almost twice as high. Inflation is 14%, with the prices of some basic necessities soaring. For an idea of where statist Iran has gone wrong, just look at liberalising Turkey, its big rival to the north-west, which has greatly overtaken Iran in national income per head since the Islamic Revolution. Freeing Iranians’ entrepreneurial spirit and making it easier for foreign firms to invest in the country’s colossal oil reserves would do more to improve the lot of its citizens than building nuclear bombs.

Though the election outcome would suggest that voters are not so concerned about winning greater personal freedoms, some Iranians, especially exiles, will remain convinced that beneath the surface there is an unstoppable popular desire for liberty—and they dream of a Ukrainian-style revolution to free their country from the mullahs’ grip. In recent years there have been sporadic protest movements, led by student groups, but these have been swiftly and ruthlessly put down. If evidence of widespread voting fraud in the presidential elections were now to emerge, then such protests might revive. But they would face determined and powerful opposition. More pessimistic Iranians fear a drift towards becoming the next North Korea—a regime that brandishes nuclear weapons at the outside world while its people slide into penury. The chances of this seem to have grown with Mr Ahmadinejad’s victory and the clerics’ reassertion of complete control over all levels of power.

But that still leaves unanswered the question- did he win by means fair or foul?
 
Well, both of them would have won by 'foul' means, as the Iranian election is just a joke. The vast majority of candidates are kicked out of the running because of the Clerics. If this where a fair election, a truly democratic, pro-western President would have been elected.
 
John Uskglass said:
Well, both of them would have won by 'foul' means, as the Iranian election is just a joke. The vast majority of candidates are kicked out of the running because of the Clerics. If this where a fair election, a truly democratic, pro-western President would have been elected.
Seconded, except "pro-western". Nothing else to say.
 
John Uskglass said:
Well, both of them would have won by 'foul' means, as the Iranian election is just a joke. The vast majority of candidates are kicked out of the running because of the Clerics. If this where a fair election, a truly democratic, pro-western President would have been elected.

Thirded, but like MoK said, not necessarily pro-Western. It's funny how you equate pro-Western with democratic, though, Johnny-boy.
 
That is kind of funny, actually. You know something is wrong with a country when the reformist candidate is a cleric and the conservative candidate is a layman.
 
Kharn said:
Thirded, but like MoK said, not necessarily pro-Western. It's funny how you equate pro-Western with democratic, though, Johnny-boy.
Uh, pro-western=democratic and vice versa.

And it would have been prowestern, duh. The massive youth in Iran is almost entirely pro-western. As a matter of fact, they live an (occasionally closeted) Western lifestyle. Turks go down to Iran to party because the drugs and parties are better.

Only thing I can think of that would end in an anti-western Iran after a second revolution would be some kind of far left revolution, but that would have been 20 years ago.
 
Pro-Western institutions would be those that favor good relations with Western cultures (Europe & America). You can still be a Democratic nation and be opposed to Western influences. It's just that your extremists are elected instead of wresting control.
 
Bradylama said:
Pro-Western institutions would be those that favor good relations with Western cultures (Europe & America). You can still be a Democratic nation and be opposed to Western influences. It's just that your extremists are elected instead of wresting control.
Extremists never allow Democracy to continue when they have power. Ergo Democracy that is not friendly to Western/developed nations or at least a group of developed nations is not going to be democratic for long.
 
John Uskglass said:
Extremists never allow Democracy to continue when they have power. Ergo Democracy that is not friendly to Western/developed nations or at least a group of developed nations is not going to be democratic for long.

...

Are you trying to be funny or something?

For one thing "Western" is not one big country you're in favour of or against, really, but that asides...

Democracy is an institution concerned first and foremost with internal affairs and the well-being of the constitutuents.

Pro-Western is a part of diplomacy unrelated to how you govern your country. Saying democracy must be pro-Western is like saying tyrannies are never pro-Western.

Man, you honestly believe all extremist countries could impossibly be a democracy? I know an example to the contrary...the States. Then again, it is a weak democracy.

Hell, didn't you pay attention to Austria in the last 20 years? Fool.

EDIT: Hell, you're side-stepping again, what you said was "If this where a fair election, a truly democratic, pro-western President would have been elected."

Which indicates any fair elections ANYWHERE, will always elect a pro-western candidate. Hello?
 
I know now isn't the time to nitpick, so I won't talk about America as a Democracy, but how are you gauging nations as "extreme?"

Come to think of it, though, I suppose it does fit. Nevermind.
 
Bradylama said:
I know now isn't the time to nitpick, so I won't talk about America as a Democracy, but how are you gauging nations as "extreme?"

That's always a funny one, because it's always relative.

If the USA is centrist, a lot of European countries are extreme-left

If those European countries are centrist, the USA is extreme-right.

Hey presto
 
For one thing "Western" is not one big country you're in favour of or against, really, but that asides...
Think of a Democratic Regiem that spouts rhetoric against the developing world. Hugo Chavez obviously does not count. Mughabe is as democratic as Hitler.

My point is that anti-Western Extremists, even if they take over through Democratic Means, destroy Democracies. Hitler did that. So did half a dozen other Dictators. Extremists+Democracy=Dead Democracy.

Democracy is an institution concerned first and foremost with internal affairs and the well-being of the constitutuents.

Anti-Western rhetoric is the trick of the anti-democratic extremist, blaming the problems of his regiems on conspiricies and plots of developed nations.

Name 1 nation that espouses anti-western rhetoric yet can be described as Democratic.

I know an example to the contrary...the States. Then again, it is a weak democracy.
You have no idea what you are talking about, at all, none.

Which indicates any fair elections ANYWHERE, will always elect a pro-western candidate. Hello?
Uh, no, it does not indicate that. In Iran it just happens to be the thruth, however. The youth is largely pro-Western, if not nessicarily Pro-American (as many are, actually).
 
Think of a Democratic Regiem that spouts rhetoric against the developing world. Hugo Chavez obviously does not count. Mughabe is as democratic as Hitler.

Because the breadth of Democratic nations tend to be pro-western does not mean that unique cases can't present themselves. Then again, it's hard for a non-Western country to become Democratic in the first place, as Democracy is a primarily Western institution that doesn't translate well into other cultures that perpetuate subserviance.

Name 1 nation that espouses anti-western rhetoric yet can be described as Democratic.

It's never been done. However, in the case of Iran, Democratic institutions have come about due to the overwhelming desire for reform in their increasingly Westernized culture. Yet, a hardliner still becomes elected because he was able to gather more support. Thus anti-Western policy can be implemented, while still remaining a Democratic.

What we have here, is an exception to the Rule.
 
It's never been done. However, in the case of Iran, Democratic institutions have come about due to the overwhelming desire for reform in their increasingly Westernized culture. Yet, a hardliner still becomes elected because he was able to gather more support. Thus anti-Western policy can be implemented, while still remaining a Democratic.

What we have here, is an exception to the Rule.
It's not truly democracy though. The anti-western ruling government is making gestures to the people who demand Democracy by allowing them to choose between a religious extremist and a relative moderate, who is still anti-western in many respects. If this where a true election, the result would be completley diffirent.

Though to be fair I guess, Shi'ite Democratic tradition goes back further then the modern age.
 
Indeed. As much as I'm inclined to agree with you, unless you can provide any proof of wrongdoing in the election, I'll continue to say otherwise.
 
Bradylama said:
Indeed. As much as I'm inclined to agree with you, unless you can provide any proof of wrongdoing in the election, I'll continue to say otherwise.
How about the fact that no truly reformist candidates where even allowed to run? How about in the last presidential election where more then half the candidates where thrown out?

That's about as Democratic as the EU for fuck's sake.
 
John Uskglass said:
My point is that anti-Western Extremists, even if they take over through Democratic Means, destroy Democracies. Hitler did that. So did half a dozen other Dictators. Extremists+Democracy=Dead Democracy.

Yes, but extremist doesn't equate anti-Western anymore than it equates pro-Western, making your argument a non-argument.

John Uskglass said:
Name 1 nation that espouses anti-western rhetoric yet can be described as Democratic.

France.

Heh.

John Uskglass said:
You have no idea what you are talking about, at all, none.

You say that a lot, don't you? Especially when being wrong, come to think of it

John Uskglass said:
Uh, no, it does not indicate that. In Iran it just happens to be the thruth, however. The youth is largely pro-Western, if not nessicarily Pro-American (as many are, actually).

(...)

If this where a true election, the result would be completley diffirent.

That doesn't make sense. If this is more-or-less an election and they elect the radical one, rather than the moderate one, what makes you think they'd go for the liberal one if given the choice between him and the radical one?

Your logic is NON-LOGIC!

John said:
That's about as Democratic as the EU for fuck's sake.

Oh, insulting the EU's democratic institution, clever.
 
Yes, but extremist doesn't equate anti-Western anymore than it equates pro-Western, making your argument a non-argument.
Uh, actually, extremists does equate anti-western. From Mughabe to Chavez to extremist elements in Japan to Russia to Brazil to Argentina. Both the far-right and far-left tends to be anti-western.

France.

Heh.
Okay. Name a stable Democracy.

:D

You say that a lot, don't you? Especially when being wrong, come to think of it
America has a stronger Democratic tradition then any nation I can think of on earth. Matter of fact, we probably have the strongest in the world. 230 years of Democracy is no laughing matter.

That doesn't make sense. If this is more-or-less an election and they elect the radical one, rather than the moderate one, what makes you think they'd go for the liberal one if given the choice between him and the radical one?

Because there is almost no diffirence between the impact the two have; the extremist president gets to have an impact on the already extreme government, the moderate president has no impact upon the already extreme government. What is the point of voting in such conditions?

Adress that not to me, but to the Iranian people. That is the situation.

Oh, insulting the EU's democratic institution, clever.
Actually, it's a lot worse then the EU, which is saying a lot, coming from me.
 
John Uskglass said:
Uh, actually, extremists does equate anti-western. From Mughabe to Chavez to extremist elements in Japan to Russia to Brazil to Argentina. Both the far-right and far-left tends to be anti-western.

Tends but doesn't equate, we've had many pro-Western dictators in former Soviet States and the Middle East. As long as they support the West, America in particular, they can stay. See the recent uprising in Uzbekistan.

John Uskglass said:
America has a stronger Democratic tradition then any nation I can think of on earth. Matter of fact, we probably have the strongest in the world. 230 years of Democracy is no laughing matter.

Actually, I think a 230-year old democracy that shows a complete inability to adapt its own democratic rules to modern circumstances *is* a laughing matter, actually.

Strong tradition is right, the rest of the world is outpacing you bitches. Democratically speaking.

John Uskglass said:
Because there is almost no diffirence between the impact the two have; the extremist president gets to have an impact on the already extreme government, the moderate president has no impact upon the already extreme government. What is the point of voting in such conditions?

Adress that not to me, but to the Iranian people. That is the situation.

No, that's just bullshit. Iran may not have much spread of power, but it does, at least symbolically. Now there's one front of unified extremist power, that will turn completely against the States and go ahead with the Nukle-ah program. The Iranians knew this when they were voting, they weren't stupid. They also knew if they elected the other one, he might not be able to do much against the religious leaders, but he would at least not support them.

Your argument again is a non-argument.

John Uskglass said:
Actually, it's a lot worse then the EU, which is saying a lot, coming from me.

That's just because you hate Arabs.
 
Back
Top