Iraq- winning or losing

welsh

welsh

Junkmaster
This is kind of interesting- a republican calls the administration 'out of touch.'

I mean, sure everyone else has been thinking W is living the fantasy, but its nice to hear a Republican calling him in on it.

US 'losing in Iraq' - Republican Senator Hagel Sun Jun 19, 3:41 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - Republican Senator Chuck Hagel slammed the George W. Bush administration's Iraq policy as "disconnected from reality" in some of the harshest comments to date about the war from a member of the president's own party.

Hagel, a top Senate Republican said to have presidential aspirations, said in an interview in US News and World Report, set to hit newsstands Monday, that US troops are "losing" the Iraq war, and that "things aren't getting better, they're getting worse."

"The White House is completely disconnected from reality," said Hagel. "It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq," said Hagel, who added that increasingly, fellow Republicans are coming to share his view.
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Yeah, we've heard this before. What took the republicans so long?-- an election.

"More and more of my colleagues up here are concerned," he said.
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About fucking time.
He made his comments as insurgent attacks in Iraq are at an all-time high and as a growing number of lawmakers have begun calling for a timetable for the withdrawal of US troops there.

US officials say the president hopes to convince skeptical Americans that progress is being made in Iraq but that setting a firm timetable for withdrawal would only embolden the United States' enemies.

Responding to Hagel's remarks on US television Sunday, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice rejected his bleak assessment of events in Iraq.

"If you're looking at what is happening politically in Iraq, these people are moving toward a different kind of future than Saddam Hussein could ever have given them," she told CNN.

"The insurgency is losing the Iraqi people, because the Iraqi people have a different kind of future in mind," she said. "That's why we're getting more intelligence. That's why people continue to volunteer for the Iraqi security services."

"We are not going to have to ... shoulder this burden until the day that the last moment of violence is over in Iraq. The Iraqis will have to do that. But we can leave them a firm foundation for a better future, and I think we can do that in a relatively quick period of time," Rice told CNN.

Still, recent polls show declining US support for the war, with some 59 percent of Americans expressing disapproval of how Bush was handling the situation in Iraq, and 51 percent thought the United States should never have invaded the country.
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It will probably be in the opinion polls that this war is won or lost.
 
Haveing actually been there, and having had the oppourtunity to work with the multinational coalition forces as well as the iraqi security forces, I have to say that things are getting better.. The iraqi's are getting increasingly pissed off at the insurgent's because the insurgents are killing THEM as well as us.. hence why more of their young men are volunteering for the military. Why we are getting better inteligence as to locations of insurgents, weapons caches and time/location for attacks.

Obviously I cant give any specific examples due to Operational Security, but yeah, things are getting better over there.. It'll just take time..

After all, Mexico didn't take over California in a day. What makes you think Iraq could be reformed into a democratic society quickly?
 
Rice Cakes said:
"If you're looking at what is happening politically in Iraq, these people are moving toward a different kind of future than Saddam Hussein could ever have given them," she told CNN.

"The insurgency is losing the Iraqi people, because the Iraqi people have a different kind of future in mind," she said. "That's why we're getting more intelligence. That's why people continue to volunteer for the Iraqi security services."
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Yes, but not to the point where they become the "Operation Human Shield" that the White House wants. I think they are getting tired of being killed regularly, their deaths seem to only mean a numerical footnote to the White House, while at the same time being treated poorly by many US troops. Do they really think that they will keep fighting in the way the US wants once the US pulls out, or expect it to not become another factioning political disaster?

You know, it's getting bad when even the US Army needs to up enlistment bonuses in order to bribe up military strength. Wow...seems like a lot of people are ceasing to care and support this garbage.

"We are not going to have to ... shoulder this burden until the day that the last moment of violence is over in Iraq. The Iraqis will have to do that. But we can leave them a firm foundation for a better future, and I think we can do that in a relatively quick period of time," Rice told CNN.
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Ahahahaha...wishful thinking that they can just suddenly fare easily on their own. Hell, the forces in Afghanistan couldn't even capture Bin Laden when he was in a cave. Now they want to pull out before the job is even half completed, because of declining popularity? What kind of bullshit is that, when it means that people will have died for popularity?

Now will the real Secretary of State please stand up?
This bitch is a JOKE.
 
Its obvious we're loosing in Iraq -- or atleast we haven't won yet. Casualties mount up every day and the so called 'insurgents/holdouts' which seems more and more like a decently organised geurilla army every day are getting more sophisticated.

Frankly, when your enemy gets stronger and not weaker, you are not winning.
 
Elissar said:
The iraqi's are getting increasingly pissed off at the insurgent's because the insurgents are killing THEM as well as us...
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Actually, that is what they (Rumsfeld and co) are fearing the most. If the Sunni insurgent keep killing Shia's at a steady rate, Shia's will start taking matters into their own hands. Shia militias fighting Sunnis could escalate into a civil war, and that would make the situation nearly impossible to control. And that's not even taking into account the Kurds, who'd take the first chance they can get to establish an independent state.

Now, if the Americans would manage to improve the security situation, then this whole civil war business could probably be avoided. Also, they should really start fixing the electricity problems.

Anyways, you could probably give us the heads up when the shit starts hitting the fan, Ellisar, when you get back there. Are you stationed in Shia or Sunni territory?
 
Let's take a moment to think about how the US is defining "winning" in this situation. As far as I can see and as Elli wrote there are two main ways: by general security on the streets and by the number of the insurgents captured or killed...

As we see in the news the security situation is shit with dozens of innocent people getting killed everyday, so in that perspective they are losing.

As for the second one, well even if they are finding more and more insurgents that probably just means more and more people are joining the insurgent movement...

Also, the Iraqis want nothing better than for the US to leave so they can have their happy little civil wars which Saddam kept in check...

The US may or may not be winning the war (I'm inclined to believe it's losing big time), but the real issue is whether or not Iraq is becoming a better place and the answer is a resounding no...
I don't know the actual figures of how many people died since the occupation and how many under Saddam, but I'm betting that the common man on the streets of Baghdad is more afraid now than he ever was...
 
My opinion was that the U.S. will loose before they started the attack. My opinion now is, i was right.

I everytime thought that austria and germany where the most evil countries on the world, because of the ww2. Thats that what they learn us at school. We have to be sorry for what our ancestors did, but when i take a look around NOW, i see that the USA are the most evil because they attack when they want, whoever they want for any reason they want. the USA is a danger for every fucking living beeing on this planet. Not just because they are aggressiv like killer bees, but because they give a shit on our environment, they have still ghettos, and they brought the capitalism like god the pestilence. Well, i dunno the american people, how they are and what manipulations they get from the news. But i know that all i hear from the United States of America has something to do with killing people for no reason, or getting more money. The most time its a combination of both.

Im not really interessted in excuses or correction but when i see U.S. soldiers in the news, i see the new generation nazis. Killing for the "Master"-race is not much more evil than killing for the "Master"-regime. And when i take a look at the USA, i see why there are still some people who think that democracy sucks.
 
K-7, that's a crock of bullshit. Your assertions that the US has ghettos and poor people are correct (no poor people in Austria, eh?) and you are right, desipte some of the most restrictive environmental regulations in the world, we really don't give a shit about the environment. I don't know how any of that relates to Iraq though, I surmise that the opportunity to engage in some good ol' fashioned America bashing was just too good to let slip by.

I'll ignore the 'new-generation Nazis' comment, because I know that there's no need to critique that logic.

Anyway, about Iraq. I haven't been there, even though I might very well head there in the near future (a few years) as a marine. I'm going to take the word of the soldier that's been there and not the word of the hyperactive media (at least here in the States) which takes everything and blows it out of proportion.

That's not to say that civilian deaths should be disregarded, but I'm really not that sure that things are as horrific as the media alleges. Since I haven't been there and I haven't done much research, I won't make any claims.
 
Pajari, while I may agree with some of your sentiments about anti-Americanism, K-7 does have a good point about the reputation or prestige of a country abroad. It was this kind of consideration that held Kennedy back from bombing Cuba during the missile crisis because he didn't want to play the role the Japanese did in World War 2.

For many people, the US has gone from a country with a decent reputation that was a victim of a terrible act of murder to being seen as the new force of imperialism and war. Bush had been of the mind that because of the US's history and reputation, it could do no wrong. Apparently people think otherwise. And that's painful to US foreign policy.

I also agree with some of the notes above. You can't think you're winning merely because you are capturing or killing more insurgents- especially when there seem to be new or more insurgents.

But I think Elli is right about the issue of hearts and minds- that's where this war will be won or lost in Iraq. If the people see the insurgents as the enemy, or those who wish to create factions that fight each other as the danger, than the US might pull this off. The more the US is seen as the enemy, the worse.

That said, there is a different war at home. Disillusionment and war weariness especially if social conditions are not good at home, may mean that US society loses confidence in the war.
 
Im due to ship to Iraq in November and all I can say is one word. Crap. It's really not nice over there. So much is left out of the news. When you live in a military city like I do all everyone talks about is Iraq, Iraq, and what there going to do after they get back from Iraq. Very few soldiers belive in the cause and those who do are crazy. Things are getting better for the soldiers over there though. Living conditions, more water, more stuff to buy..... but it still sucks. All I can do is pray that my company doesn't get slaughtered over there.
 
My question to all those who say the US is loseing and that the iraqi's want the US to leave so they can have their little civil wars... Have you actually BEEN to iraq, or are you just watching fox news for your information?

The ammount of attacks have stepped up recently... of course it has, it's summer, their is always more attacks in the summer... think about it, these dudes wear dresses, and it's cold in the winter... they may be easily led into blowing themselves up but they dont like cold balls.

As for new or more insurgents, for the most part they are comming from iran and syria. Far fewer iraqi's are participating in attacks, more and more iraqi's are voulentering for service in the National Guard and Security Forces
 
I am going to have to fully agree with K-7

US is a country built on war. I don't think I am wrong when I say that every president, from the first to the last, has been involved or has started a war or a conflict.

I am european by birth, I don't live in US (in canada), but I am very enthusiastic about history and somewhat politics. Even a dumbass can see that USs intention wasn't to 'free iraq', instead grab as much oil as they can. If i can recall correctly, this entire terrorism war started because of Bin Laden, and hunting him down. It's almost been 4 years, what the hell?

The worst part is such a large population of america relying heavily on media for their source of information. Large medias like CNN, CBC, BBC all have to 'filter' their stories, meaning, alter them. It's not to say that they remain 100% true either. I am not a big fan of michael moore but I think fahrenheit was pretty impressive, especially the post-documentary of other people bashing him with useless rants.

Regarding K-7s comment about US being 'neo-nazi', I'd have to agree, but say that they are mor of a fascist state than a nazi one. If i had a choice between living in US and some poor part of Africa, i'd definetly pick Africa. Despite the good outlooks on the US soldiers state in Iraq, so many soldiers killed for such a small change. What has changed? nothing. Terrorism is still roaming around.

Few people I talk to (some american) say that US is a lot like the Roman Empire, that the 'senate' is based on it, and that it will probably fall like it.
 
All due respect to you Elli, but you were probably spoon fed more propaganda bullshit there than people who do watch Fox...

One of two things will happen: 1. The US will stay and fight this unpopular battle forever, or 2. They will leave in 2008 and leave a country on a brink of civil war...

In any case it's a lose-lose situation for all except for Halliburton and the likes...
 
Actually, I wasnt spoon fed anything over there.. I have a job that requires me to trave all over the country and interract with lots of people.. including iraqi SF and National Guard, Coalition forces, Marines, Soldiers, Airmen.. High ranking officials.

Despite what you believe, I have first hand experiance and a pretty damn good idea of what "I" have actually seen..

Not that you really care or are willing to believe me anyway, you have your own opinion on the matter and thats just fine. I only wish to point out that we are doing some good over there and that quality of life is improving for everyone in iraq.

Elissar - few more weeks and i can go back to the sandbox.
 
Elissar said:
Actually, I wasnt spoon fed anything over there.. I have a job that requires me to trave all over the country and interract with lots of people.. including iraqi SF and National Guard, Coalition forces, Marines, Soldiers, Airmen.. High ranking officials.

Despite what you believe, I have first hand experiance and a pretty damn good idea of what "I" have actually seen..
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Sir, I stand corrected on the "spoonfed bullshit" remark...

Elissar said:
Not that you really care or are willing to believe me anyway, you have your own opinion on the matter and thats just fine. I only wish to point out that we are doing some good over there and that quality of life is improving for everyone in iraq.
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...but the fact is that bodycount numbers still show that the quality of life situation is pretty fucking far from improving...
 
welsh said:
I also agree with some of the notes above. You can't think you're winning merely because you are capturing or killing more insurgents- especially when there seem to be new or more insurgents.
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Elissar said:
The ammount of attacks have stepped up recently... of course it has, it's summer, their is always more attacks in the summer... think about it, these dudes wear dresses, and it's cold in the winter... they may be easily led into blowing themselves up but they dont like cold balls.
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With that much bomb material and that kind of regular killing going on, it is simply a bit more than "it's summer". Things burn easier in the summer, more people are out and about in the summer, so therefore the damage will be more severe in the summer. So why is THIS summer more fucked up than LAST summer?

It is more like the insurgents are NOT Iraqi, and the US is fighting a hopeless battle of defending Iraq from forces that are not native to Iraq. That tends to hinder any ability to STOP said forces without going to their source.
 
k-7 said:
OMFG I HATE US LOL!!!11 US SUCKZ!!! US ARE TEH NAZIS!!! I CAN OFFER NO COHERENT ARGUMENTATION AND NO RATIONAL REASONING BUT WTF, US IZ TEH NAZIS ADN BUSH IZ HITLER, DEY KIL LITTEL CHILDREN & EVERY1 LOLOLOL!!!111!
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Ratty said:
k-7 said:
DEY KIL LITTEL CHILDREN & EVERY1 LOLOLOL!!!111!
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Funny you should mention that. And that is not counting the "secure site" orders as well as the little fiasco with villages, and Operation Wedding Party.

US military spokesmen have insisted that there were no children among the casualties.
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So much for intel, before and after the fact. And, the US administration gets caught in a lie, by Candid Camera. But hey, they're just Iraqis. :roll:
 
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