Is New Vegas crippled by bad writing?

New Vegas engages in a bit of de facto railroading at the beginning, and I don't think anyone will disagree with you that the In Media Res opening felt a bit unfocused or that it was a bad move having Doc Mitchell decide to hand you his vault suit and his invaluable, irreplaceable personal computer as parting gifts. F3's beginning, for its own flaws, was much more dynamic and self-contained and really felt like it was thrusting you out into the wasteland. That's really more design than writing, though, and from the moment Doc Mitchell opened his mouth (in fact, from the moment Benny starts speaking in the opening cutscene) New Vegas's writing was leaps and bounds ahead of 3's in characterization, believability, and depth. As to that railroading, they might keep you to the south of the map to start with but they give you plenty to explore down there, and it's not like it takes you any real time at all to get around those mountains. On top of that, once you've got a playthrough's worth of experience under your belt, you've got half a dozen viable ways to circumvent the meatwalls herding you towards Primm and skip straight to Novac, or even Vegas. My own brother decided that was where the action was and went straight there from Goodsprings on his first playthrough, which isn't by any means unprecedented amongst seasoned Fallout 3 veterans.

To be honest, I greatly prefer New Vegas' opening, as it's in line with Fallout and Fallout 2. You're given an objective and sent on your merry way. The games consciously avoided giving the player character any particular background or motivation, specifically so that the player can write their own on the tabula rasa provided. You can start defining your character as early as the first town in Fallout or the first interactions in Fallout 2.

I know I hated Fallout 3's extended intro, as rather than creating my own character as Fallout always permitted me to (FOBOS doesn't count), I was given someone else's creation to use. The fundamental character elements were already defined and all I could was fill in the blanks. I could not deviate from the archetype of loving child in search of Daddy. The token option to tell Dad to fuck off was just that: Token. The game would freeze the storyline until I decided to be a good child and work with Daddy.

Compare that to New Vegas, where if you don't like someone you can skip or work around them. In Fallout 2, you could easily avoid taking a side in the game-defining conflict for NorCal and simply focus on helping your village. To be honest, Fallout 2 would have been much better without the whole Enclave subplot, instead focusing on what really mattered, such as the aforementioned conflict. I won't even mention Fallout, where you can tackle the storyline in any order, up to and including killing the supermutants without finding the waterchip (though that's not fully supported by the game).

As to believability, I can see how some might think The Courier's motivation was lacking compared to the Lone Wanderer's, but even if you're not out for blood (my Courier certainly wasn't) your motivation should be absolutely clear: "I am a courier. I was paid to make a delivery. I have a slip here detailing that delivery, and the fact that I am a courier. Failing to make this delivery will probably have consequences, the very least of which will be an irrecoverable impact to my professional credibility. I should probably recover the chip and finish the job, and I know where the man who took it is headed." Chasing down this macguffin leads you into the convergence of intrigues that is Vegas, where, by association and blind chance, you're caught up in things and eventually end up taking your chance to give the people of New Vegas (your de facto home) what you think is the best future for them, or to make a grab for what you think is best for you. If you feel this is a bit high-flung, deliver the chip to House like a good courier doing a job and then do what merc work you please and ignore the main quest in order to freely explore the wasteland, as you said you wanted to in the first place.

In New Vegas, the motivations of the player character are up to the player to establish. The developers purposefully did not establish them beyond very broad strokes, because it was designed as a role playing game, where the gamer creates the character and lays down what drives him or her to do the things they do. The game gives plenty of opportunity for expressing the character and defining them as well, including dozens of dialogue options that are placed for the sake of roleplaying and give different reactions from NPCs.

Generally, I find the complaint that the developers did not create the motivations for the player bizarre. It's a role playing game, what did you expect?

Your community's reputation as a warm, welcoming place where people can have discussions about a franchise they enjoy is well known across the internet, and clearly well founded given the helpful, insightful comment you have provided. Truly, I am moved both by your eloquence and the extent to which you were willing to analyse my concerns on a point-for-point basis and offer your own thoughts as to why they did or did not apply as appropriate.

Yamu already explained the standing policy well. As an administrator, I'd like to add that I've asked Akratus to refrain from ad hominem arguments, especially in a thread warranting discussion.
 
The only thing I can come up with is that, to me at least, New Vegas is not a post-apocalyptic survival game.

You're not in bad company there. The Core Region having become a frontier or "post-post-apocalyptic" setting was a sticking point for a lot of people as far back as Fallout 2, even among the staunchest of the Black Isle/Obsidian fan vanguard. You may be aware that Chris Avellone himself has advocated nuking NCR off the map (and that Black Isle's Fallout 3 would've scoured Fallout 2's San Francisco from the franchise via the nuclear option, and good riddance).

I've heard from more than a few that wish the ending to the Lonesome Road DLC would be made canon. My personal take is that NCR has hit the height of its power and should probably have begun falling in on itself by the next game. It's a conundrum, though; once you hit the reset button, which no matter how skillfully they wrote it it would obviously be, is it really even the Fallout setting anymore? And with 200+ years of post-war development, there aren't a lot of places you could set another Fallout game that wouldn't suffer a similar problem (unless the devs wanted to ignore all logic and say "grimdark wasteland just because" and hope the players didn't spend too much time thinking about it).
 
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I may be wrong, but i don't thing Fallout was ever intended as an apocalyptic survival game.

Since day one, the games were set after decades after the great war. You always had some nations/town/factions/armies.
In Fo1, you had the Hub, the BOS, the unity that were pretty well organized, and Fallout 2 turn that up to eleven.

I don't remember which developper said it out loud, but one of the main features of the franchise is to deal with new societies that has risen after the fall.

Most of those societies act as metaphor of previous societies, in a setting to allow them to coexist, with a "cool" vibe with muties & brahmins. Of course, it is not the only important thing in the Fallout universe, but it is quite important, and New Vegas is faithfull to that, with representatives of the three main forms of powers that the had in our histories. Governements that state that they represents their citizens, Monarchy that are centered around an ideology, a religion, and a god-like leader, and Mega-corporations that have more power than countries, like we have now.

This is what the setting is.

IMO, the Fallout universe has to remains post-apocalyptic. In order to be post-apocalyptic, the apocalyptic era must be finished. You can't be post- of something that hasn't finished yet.

It doesn't mean that apocalyptic survival are bad. Just that those need to be found in another franchise. (or maybe some prequels, since the Fallout backstory is incredible)

I strongly advice Metro 2033 that is advertized as a post-apocalyptic game, but, in fact, is a great apocalyptic game. The nuclear winter is not gone, and the humanity is still fighting in order to survive. Humanity are not entered in the post-apocalyptic era, yet, and is not even sure that era will happen.
 
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I may be wrong, but i don't thing Fallout was ever intended as an apocalyptic survival game.

The perfect time for me to find this thread and say the same things I love saying over and over again XD I hope noone minds :oops:

What the OP expressed was my reaction to Fallout 2 coming from Fallout 1 years ago (and not just mine I suppose). Whatever NMA reputation may be, there's actually all sorts here, and I love the fact that when a possible troll shows up everyone gives very insightful and thoughtful essays on stuff they noticed abotu the whole franchise over the years ^^ Trolls come and go, good stuff stays with you forever. And the OP doesn't even seem to be a troll.

As I was saying - YES, that is a pickle with NV compared to FO3! It's why I say that FO 3 is, lore wise, kind of more simmilar to Fallout 1 than people realize if they're angry about it's other characteristics. And also why I say NV is more of a "proper" Fallout 2 than the actual Fallout 2 was in terms of tone (as in, if Fallout 2 didn't go heavy with self references and took itself mores seriously you'd get something like NV).

However, NV has a lot better writing than FO 3. It has better writing than Fallout 2 even, that game only works because it's isometric, and thus symbolic and that particular genre/medium/art direction allows for greater suspension of disbelief. (Just try to imagine all the Fallout 2 dialogues voiced - especially the zany ones. Just TRY to immagine having a low int conversation with Torr and than speaking to, IDK, someone with a serious and dramatic problem XD) NV does suffer somewhat that all the lines have to be delivered in voiced dialogue even if it's serious, but it would take me a seminar to explain why this is so.

And, well, the idea of 3 dog (not the realization, just the idea) was one of the things I hugely liked about Fallout 3. Fallout 2's wasteland was incredibly disconnected for no good reason as far as dialogues go, and someone could make a huge and terrific mod using the radios which would let you have complex quests without having to run around the place. However, a radio station is wasted on a more true post-apoc survival game like FO 3, it would've been MUCH more interesting in a post-post-apoc (technicaly a western / dreat depression / atom punk) game like Fallout 2 or NV. It's a fact.

But the rest of the setpieces in Fallout 3 were impossibly railroady, and also rather... well, prvoloptaški is the word in my language, it's kind of like "lowest common denominator" except with more of a "shame, there was more potential there" undertone, rather than an elitist one. If they hit you subjectively, well, then, fine, that makes you the target audience, but it's still rather cheezy writing (and WOULD get you failed in high school XD).
 
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I would say that the story of Fallout 2 could be better, but that i am fond of the writting itself, but we covered it.

The radio seems good on the paper and i found it enjoyable the first minutes i discovered it, but even if we forget that 3dogs is in love with the lone wanderer, there is a HUGE difference between the lengh of the radio recordings and the lenght of the game, which makes the music & the comments old far before you finished the game (even more than "patrolling the mojave (...) nuclear winter"). If the latest hours, the first thing i did when i entered a building was to run toward the radio to turn it off, even if they were monsters around.

Having some radio emitting could be interesting in the Fo1-Fo2 universe, but i would rather have it as location/time related. For instance, the first time you enter the Bishop casino, you hear one emission from NCR, never to hear it again. If Metzger is alive after the Enclave abducted your tribe, you can spy him, while he is himself spying enclave communications, and so on.... Never letting it getting old...

Also, let's not forget that Fo3 & FoNV all happen in a single place, where any location can be reached in foot, in less than a day, while Fo1-Fo2-FoT happens in multiple entire states. So, i would rather not have a radio that cover the whole worldmap.

But what do you mean about Fallout 2 wasteland being disconnected ? IMO Fallout 2 is, beside New Vegas, the games in which the locations are the most connected to each other, far more than Fo1-FoT-Fo3.
 
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Oh, it'd be impossible to use the radio the same way in the originals as it was used in FO3 because of real-time vs. turn based differences. But if radio would open up dialogue when used, you could give the various radios you found to different people and be able to communicate with them from anywhere. That would probably open up interesting quest material ^^ There could also be people calling you with info and stuff (a simmilar function was built in in Shadowrun, but kinda overused).

And yeah, the idea of a radio in an real time open world game is pretty cool, but I didn't like the execution either.


As for Fallout 2 being disconnected - this may sound strange at first, but there is a discrepancy between the level of connectedness and interaction between towns that the game claims there is (caravans, characters being "aware" of different cities or "importing" stuff from them) and actual connectedness or the ability to influence what's going on in a particular town by doing something in another town. Yes, there are a few places which form quest hubs, and there is a bit of politics between VC, New Reno and NCR, but when you get down to it most of the interaction between towns is either exploration hooks, fetch quests or exploration hooks which are fetch quests. The whole Gecko reactor thing is... basically like a plumber house call, except with electronics "yeah, I could fix this for you, but I have to get the part from storage, etc". You could make a you-tube skit about the banality of it...

Someone even made a trollish thread about it called "where are the so called concequences in the original games", where he claims that the places feel disconnected and self contained and that having a slideshow showing the concequences of your actions not bieng nearly enough for proper immersion. But that's kind of true to a degree. There are visible concequences possible to unlock in some towns (like poisoning the alchohol in New Reno), or having floats change if you become a prizefighter or kill a kickboxing master in San Fran, but stuff in Fallout 2 is very self-contained on average.

Discussing this here would look like an attempt at hijacking the thread, and making another thread about it would end up with people politely suggesting I make my own damned mod instead of complaining about it. XD However here's a short list of stuff which assumes cross-town interaction:

- Arroyo - no cross town interaction in practice
- Klamath - no cross town interactions (Toxic caves are more of an extra map)
- Den - Smitthy (fetch quest), Karl (this one's kinda legit, but also technicaly a fetch quest), *Sulik's sister questline (legit), Slavery (can get you in trouble elsewhere)
- *Umbra Tribe - Sulik's sister questline, and possibly a few fetch quests if you don't have the stuff on you
- Modoc - none, Ghost Farm is a very uninteractive extra map and Karl is a fetch quest
- Vault City - Gecko (a few fetch quests), New Reno (a delivery quest, but starts it's own quest chain), Raiders (is technicaly a hard-to-find combat map which effectively removes a location if you solve it), NCR (a scouting quest and a delivery quest)
- Broken Hills - Mine parts (fetch quest)
- New Reno - Bishop quests (these are legit), Jet antidote via Myron (legit) *Father Tully (abbey hook, no concequences), SAD quest (combat map)
- NCR - Hubologist delivery (exploration hook, kinda meaningless), Vault 15/Vault 13/Raider camp/Ranger safehouse (combat maps more or less)
- Vault 13 - Parts (fetch quest)
- Redding - Jet antidote delivery (legit idea), the mine chip, wannamingo mine and Frog Morton (only have concequence because you're told, no visible ones)
- San Francisco - Vertibird (fetch/combat quest), tanker stuff (fetch quests)

ETC.

That's pretty much all of it, and even if there's double the ammount... Most of these don't have any in-game concequences even thought they obviously should. Some have charactes do become aware of your previous actions, like Bishop sometimes, but most of the concequences of successfully completed quests, connected or self-contained you can feel are the bad ones, like locking yourself out of dialogue options (or in case of VC and Gecko whole towns). Vault City is the only really worked out quest hub which isn't self contained. It's ironic since they're the most isolationist, but their quest(lines) actually have you interacting with the rest of the world. New Reno, on the other hand, is mind-blowingly self contained, while at the same time having the most potential for just about anything you do there to have visible/tangible effects on other places. NCR hardly has any connection to the rest of the world, which is why the devs must've felt it neccessary to have the NCR scouting quest for VC. Otherwise you'd never have a reason to go in that direction at all.

But at the same time there's caravans going to and fro all the time, and traders and communities claiming they get their stuff from various places. This doesn't translate into what you see on the screen or what you can do / interact with at all. The interconnected to self-contained content ratio in Fallout 2 is quite skewed in self-contained direction, and most of the stuff that connects towns is fetch quests designed to give you a hook to go to a certain town or explore in a way that you run into one that wasn't mentioned explicitly. The game even uses this mechanism as "soft" zoning scheme, because if you play it in the "reach town - do quests - take exploration fetch quest - reach another town via fetch quest - do quests..." fashion, it's quite linear (and often feels natural), but if you don't you run into gear that makes any combat in a previous town much easier.

Which is also why I can see why they wanted some degree of level scaling (and went overboard) in the later games. Fallout 2 is kind of railroady in a sense that you either run into very real beefgates/damage gates, or the quest XP distribution in most towns makes even visiting them break balance, and so does container loot/drops. And while you're free to do stuff in any order you want, there aren't too many story or C&C related reasons not to play it in a rather linear order. When people praise it's non-linearity, say the "you can complete it in half an hour, they ussually forget to mention that you need to break the very real beef gate system by boosting outdoorsman which removes it completely in a very mechanical fashion, break sequence with the intent to cash in on easy quest XP to do so, or do a whole lot of save scumming - which is kind of an indicator that you're doing something you're not supposed to. I'd personally much prefer it if you could reach New Reno more easily but couldn't get so much out of it if you haven't discovered a few other places, as opposed to just being locked out of one questline...

Eh, sorry about this... But still, it's worth considering that some of the "feels more connected" and "I can explore at my leisure better in FO3" complaints might be more legit and less fanboyism that it's generally considered. FO3 writing fails for me because the system was poised to solve the railroading problems FO2 had for me, but THEN it railroads you into a cheezy, inconsistent and kind of non-sensical plot (or at least too sentimental). It's worth a though or two, considering that I've seen quite a few "let's try to fix the economy" mods out there for the old games, and after a ton of playthroughs I'm pretty sure this question is at the root of many problems the old games have...
 
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That is a very insightful post lujo. However, I believe that no one claimed that Fallout 2 is the apex of interconnection and intricate networking. The most common claim, one that I also make, is that Fallout 2 has superior world and story design that result in the game feeling more connected. You are right, there are few quests and activities that influence events beyond any given location. However, I think that artificially separating gameplay from the story is disingenous, as the two are very much intertwined. For example, the struggle for control over NorCal between New Reno, NCR, and Vault City pretty much defines the game and is thoroughly explored throughout dialogue and several quests. However, if you only look at quests you are right, it feels disjointed. But that's not really how the game plays.

Also, non-linearity is a gameplay quality. You can complete Fallout 2 in less than thirty minutes and you can easily play it out of order. That's the point. Non-linearity is a trait that only requires the game to allow you to tackle things in a non-linear fashion, without being forced to follow a specific order. That's why Fallout 2 is non-linear whereas Fallout 3 is linear.

I'm not sure why you mention difficulty varying between locations. Every game is (or should be) designed with variable, staggered difficulty. Otherwise you get crap like Oblivion's level scaling. It's boring and defeats the purpose of exploring.
 
However, I believe that no one claimed that Fallout 2 is the apex of interconnection and intricate networking. The most common claim, one that I also make, is that Fallout 2 has superior world and story design that result in the game feeling more connected.

Well, I'd disagree with that quite a bit. That is, I'm not saying Fallout 2 has a terrible disconnected world, but the superirority of that particular world and especially the design aspect of the story are highly suspect. What Fallout 2 does have is a story with a lot more moral ambiguity, and a lot less emotional incentive to partake into any modules of the story - leaving you to find motivation for whatever you do in curiosity, self interest, altruism or common sense without forcing you into white knighting. Most people still do it, I suppose, I do, but you really are doing it for yourself and not because destiny said so. It also has a visual style which lets lesser nonsensical moments slip by the player, allows for much greater suspension of disbelief so to speak - the ammount of hilarious nonsense that goes on in that game makes FO3 look like an award winning SF* (*this isn't praising FO3, it just has less outright intentional 4th wall breaking nonsense). That nonsense is generally better written, but if you could immagine most of Fallout 2 played out in full 3d with voicework it'd be more like south park than mad max.

However, I think that artificially separating gameplay from the story is disingenous, as the two are very much intertwined. For example, the struggle for control over NorCal between New Reno, NCR, and Vault City pretty much defines the game and is thoroughly explored throughout dialogue and several quests. However, if you only look at quests you are right, it feels disjointed. But that's not really how the game plays.

Ah, but I'm not separating them for any disingeniuos purposes - in fact, I'm complaining about it for my own sake, to get it off my chest. The ammount of separation annyod me every time I played it (not enough to not complete a big bunch of rather thorough playthroughs over the years XD) The struggle between New Reno, NCR and VC does nominally define a big part of the game, but the way this plays out in terms of stuff you do IS a huge instance of story and gameplay separation. In fact, short of games who's plots are mainly an excuse, Fallout 2 is one of the games which I'd personaly use as a texbook example of unsatisfying story and gameplay separation, with the famous end game slides sort of an afterthought and consolation prize for not actually developing this aspect of the game and letting the player have at least SOME kinda tangible closure on much of his actions (apart from some of the confilicts that are resoved by shooting up a place, where the conclusion is kinda obvious).

If the conflict was actually done fairly and adequately, New Reno and NCR would have been made rather different than they are. Bishop is connected to the rest of the world, the rest of New Reno isn't. Yes as far as some dialogues are concerned, but not in any other meaningful way. There could've, and probably should've, been alcohol related Wright quests in many different places, with Wright children you could meet to build the family up before you find them. All the drug bussiness everywhere could've included Mordino's which would be impossible to fight on the first arrival, but you could backtrack and mess with them later. Salvatore's could've been a strictly New Reno gang. The Slavers vs. NCR rangers could've been introduced much earlier and played itself out throughout the game, with the possiblity of cloak and dagger stuff as early as the Den. Redding could've been so much more than it was (it's just 2-3 easy quests and a dungeon).

The "factions" of Fallout 2 are many and varied, which does open up tons of space for much more than BoS vs. Enclave high fantasy nonsense, but the player interaction with them is really, really lacking.

Also, non-linearity is a gameplay quality. You can complete Fallout 2 in less than thirty minutes and you can easily play it out of order. That's the point. Non-linearaviity is a trait that only requires the game to allow you to tackle things in a non-linear fashion, without being forced to follow a specific order. That's why Fallout 2 is non-linear whereas Fallout 3 is linear.

Eh, but IS Fallout 2 truly non-linear as much as most of the stuff in it being a red herring / wild goose chase / shaggy dog story in terms of actually completing the game? Does it really "work" as a game if you in fact play it in a non-linear fashion? It does allow for non-linear gameplay, and it steers rather than forces you, and that's all fine and dandy, but the challenge level, the money, power, chem, whatever levels, balance so to speak, falls apart horribly if you play it that way. The crowning moment of this is getting a suit of high DR armor "out of sequence", but it's also very possible to get a low AP weapon "out of sequence" without even trying to "sequence break". You can't really visit cities except in a rather linear sequence if you don't want the mounting XP rewards for mundane activities to completely break the game for you (by getting you level, perks and HP) - which is why, after years of playing it, I found that the biggest challenge for me is trying to make non-linearity not screw with challenge progression, which is to say, making it more linear through self imposed challenge. Because it, in fact, plays better that way. It doesn't really seem like it was designed with non-linearity in mind, it just allows for it.

I'm not sure why you mention difficulty varying between locations. Every game is (or should be) designed with variable, staggered difficulty. Otherwise you get crap like Oblivion's level scaling. It's boring and defeats the purpose of exploring.

Ah, but oblivion level scaling wasn't what I had in mind. That's scaling the challenge to player level*. The problem Fallout 2 has in this regard is not scalling the rewards to player level. You can't really visit NCR, for example, whenever you want, not because the random mobs around it will blow your head off (which they will, but w/e), but because interacting with folks in it will get you as much XP as solving the whole VC - Gecko questline for a random "barely a quest" self-contained dialogue. You can't visit San Fran even if you get your Outdoorsman high enough to sneak past the beef wall, because if you just do any quest at all you'll get an assload of XP. Also, just looting random containers in different towns can tell you if you've "missed this place when you were ment to do it" or if "whoah, I think I wasn't supposed to be here yet". The concequences of this defeats part of the purpose of questing, or at least the material/XP rewards and/or challenge assessments.

It can be something as innocent as just walking into Redding after the Den, looking around for things to do and managing to figure out how to rob the casino vault. It's interesting, intrigueing and not rocket science. BAM! Money coming out of your ears for the rest of the game. You won't even be able to tell you "broke sequence" while doing it, it doesn't look suspicious, except that you might've as well typed in a money cheat. Goint to New Reno "out of turn" is even sillier. If you set about doing quests for the Wrights, and why not exactly?, you solve one quest by talking to a bunch of people around town, which you do in towns anyway, and then you get sent to the SAD. Entering it is easy enough, so you enter it, and walk out with so much firepower that... well, you get the picture.

So Fallout 2 doesn't do much to prevent you from visiting stuff and interacting with people in any order you want, but actually doing so messess everything up, horribly horribly. Not to mention that you can shoot people without any indicator that they are somehow important, so you can screw yourself out of content without even knowing. Visiting New Reno and bumping Bishop can in fact lock you out of a big part of the whole "NR VC NCR" love triangle before you even get a clue there IS a "NR VC NCR" politics struggle at all. All you need to do is walk into New Reno and start talking with people and taking quests, you'll get the very self-contained and easy to do Mordino quests, you'll end up locking yourself out of everything before you can blink.

So, while the world had much more potential for quality stories and quests the execution is not so praiseworthy. Also the non-linearity of Fallout 2 is rather overrated, and the game might've actually been terribly built and concieved for it. FO3 fails for it's writing, the other games have superior writing, but as far as making you a part of it's world, heck, a gimmick like 3 dog does a pretty commendable job all things considered. Too bad it's not a worthwhile world it's immersing you in. It's also a shame it's about combat so much, as it actually works better as a non-linear game if you don't count the main quest.

Errr, srry about possibly unrelated texteall - OT - how's NV in this regard? Does the quality depend on figuring out an unwritten "proper" sequence too much? Thoes this stand out so much to a Fallout 3 fan that you'd find it crippling?
 
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It won't add much or contradict your point, but when i said place are connected, it is in term of world building.

There the north-west area, in which you can find many tribals (Arroyo, Umbra) and quite poor people (Klamath, Den). It is a golden place for slavers as humans are easier target, with not much stuff, and no united strong group. So Metzger got himself the king of the area, by selling all this stockpile to other cities in which slave hunting is harder to achieve. (especially Vault City) Another important activity in the area is gecko hunting, as they are numerous. So many people have leather jacket. It is partially self-contained but all the settlements of that area make sense together.

Vault City is surrounded by settlements (Gecko/the Village/the Abbey) that manage to survive on their own, but are crippled by Vault City strong presence. They don't need Vault City, but can't afford to ignore them, while Vault City despise them, but need them. They have medical knowledge that they can trade for other supplies.

NCR seems more open-minded, but also have interest in surrounding areas (Vault 13-Vault 15).

Both Vault City & NCR are the bigger dogs in the east. Between them, there is New Reno, that in the middle of the biggest trading road and take advantage of travellers money, thanks to gambling, prostitution & entertainment. They get themselves involved in the influence war between these two dogs, trying to take the biggest bones, the same way as House, who is right between two other bigger dogs. They have a fair share in the regional trade, by using Metzger (not sure about that one) to exchange slave for medications with Vault City, and spread their drugs & alcool in the surrounding areas. They also provide some of these medication with the exclave in exchange for firepower. (of course, every family do his own stuff, but in the end, the city does that)

Redding strongly serves as a example of that influence war between Vault City, New Reno and the NCR, on other cities, which each side providing differents pro & cons to the citizens. Mainly, Vault city providing medication, New Reno drugs, NCR laws, but not only. Beside that, it provide its own ressources to trade, thanks to gold.

The south-West is more self-contained than the north-west, but the factions inside it have some connections with each other, with an influence war between the Shi & the hubologists, with the tanker dwellers caught in the middle. Also, all these groups & the BOS want to spy the Enclave and take technologies from them.

Broken Hills, and Modoc are not connected to other cities (as you said, Ghost City is mostly a part of Modoc area), but both provides different ressources to trade with the rest of the Wasteland, Modoc being a giant farm, while Broken Hills has Uranium.

Also, i wont mention all ressources, but most cities have ressources that they have more than others, or military power to get it from the neighbour, and things that they lack and would buy from other cities. So the trade route is also consistent.

So, if the quest could show it more, you get that the writters spent at least some time making the cities connected with each others, in term of universe. It doesn't seems so obvious in Fo1-FoT-Fo3, in which the cities exists but you could move, remove or switch some of them that it wouldn't hurt the internal logic of tham fictionnal world. On the other hand, if you put Vault City near NCR, it would make the role of New Reno less believable. If Vault City & the Enclave weren't isolationist, a middle groupe wouldn't take advantage of their both needs. The Den wouldn't make sense in the border of the NCR or broken hills, were there could be strong resistance. And so on...

(just stating what i intended to say in the first place. I didn't took enough time to read your point and answer it. It would be for another day)
 
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It's np - what you describe is the worldbuilding setup, and Fallout 2 has a rather good one. But even after playing the game many, many times (3 full, turn-every-rock-over playthroughs in the last month alone, had a lot of free time) a lot of what you describe is rather underused or even rather undefined in the game itself. The game's not badly written as much as severely underwritten.

EDIT: I was kinda repeating myself, sorry about that. I deleted it.

Since F:NV is basicaly Fallout 2 "take 2" - I wonder if they actually tried to adress this. They had to have been aware of it, and introducing an actual faction system for realz speaks volumes in itself. To what degree is this still a problem?
 
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What is still a problem ?

I am sorry that i didn't take enough time to re-read all you've said. I am unexpectedly busy these days.

Basically, i think you are right about New Vegas doing a far better job than Fallout 2 in terms of coherent world building, faction system, reputation system and even overall plot. It is even one of the high point of New Vegas, and not even one of the only one. There are also the Companions system, the overall evolution of the unity, the Brotherhood of steel and many factions that were forgotten in Fallout 2, that make a consistent comeback.

Fallout New Vegas writting is not perfect, not any medium is, but overall, you get that the writters did a huge job.

But Using Fallout 2 as main target about locations connections doesn't seems righjt. New Vegas does better than Fallout 2, but i think that Fallout 2 does better than Fo1-FoT-Fo3. It is an improvement, but Fallout 2 was the main opponement, not the counter-example.

Also, i am not sure the interconnected quests were the Focus on Fallout 2, but rather one of the features that were considered good at the time, and were improved later. Notably, the way Fallout 2 was written unfortunatly didn't match very well with higher expectations. If i am not wrong, the writter worked together in establishing the game world, and then, separate writters were working on specific locations. (I may misinterpreting, but that way of working could have made some original writters like Cain or Boyarsky leave the team in mid-devellopment) So, most of the things you do in specific location are more related to that specific location than related to other locations (even if it is not the case with 100% of the quests) . But i will also remind that all these place were interesting by themselves, with no useless locations.

I don't know how Obsidian worked with New Vegas, but you could clearly feel that everything is far more connected. And maybe, if given the choice, the writters would have done the same with Fallout 2. I could argue that there are some drawback with places like Nipton or Boulder that seems to exist only if we consider the link with other factions (Legion/NCR/Powder Ganger) what don't have anything interesting on its own. Those places are still far better that Cazadore Nest #47 as they are, at least, relevant to the plot, but lose relevance once you learnt what happened there.

I get what you said when you say that New Vegas could be considered as a Fallout 2 done right, as New Vegas seems an improvement on many aspects of Fallout 2, and i bet that there are things they wanted to do on Fallout 2 that they couldn't do at the time, because of Time issues, engine limitation, or Interplay pressure.

But at the same time, i think that Fallout 2 shouldn't be limited to those specifics issues. The game had other points to defend himself. There often was subtext, humor and constant wake up to the audience to make himself think about all those tropes he sees in video games, general medias, or even in press. That element, amongs't others, is something i miss in other games and made Fallout 2 so unique, in the video games world overall. But this thread is not praising Fallout 2.

In my opinion, what New Vegas did was not only improved some Fallout 2 features, but also allowed more focus on its core elements, giving also a better stability or average on the quality of the contents, but hasn't, made Fallout 2 obsolete. Also, if the average quality of some features is betters, i deeply miss other features and some Fo1-Fo2 highlights.
 
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Oh, all that makes sense, but I started all the rambling because some of OP's complaints about NV compared to FO3. And I've herd some of it before, from other folks, but it kind usually weers off into a misfire of a discussion. FO3 fans praise it's non-linearity compared to the rest, people who aren't FO3 fans stare in disbelief and point out that the FO3 main quest is impossibly linear. Then FO3 fans say "screw the main quest, the rest of the world can be explored in whichever way you want", then guys who don't like FO3 say "you because of stupid oblivion like level scaling". Then a FO3 fan could say "screw the level scaling, I'm talking about discovering locations and talking to people", and the opponents can say "yes, but what's the point, the writing is mostly godawful, compared to the standards you'd expect from a Fallout game".

But what happens then is that if I examine the standards set by the series (barring FO:NV which I admit I haven't played but have read a lot about), this whole thing gets another dimension. FO, say, 2, has way more potential to have a world worth exploring in a non-linear fashion, but it either underutilizes is in terms of feeling the concequences of your actions - or really constricts your options in actually approaching it as a non-linear game for reasons that are rarely brought up. If Fallout 2 were made to be better adjusted for non-linear gameplay, it would actually be better at what it is praised for as you could actually immerse yourself into it's fine world without changing the gameplay/engine at all.

So in a weird way, FO3 fans do (or rather MIGHT) have a point there. Fallout 2 IS sort of crippled by it's non-advertized underlying linearity, and I'm wondering how much of this is the case with NV, since a lot of the design of it spells out "let's have another go at making Fallout 2, but this time better". It's very interesting to me because it might lead to modding Fallout 2 in a way which plays to it's strenghts without compromising it's integrity.

If there's stuff that worked to improve this issue in NV, how much did it succeed? I'm curious if the OP is still on his NV playthrough and what his thoughts on the matter are currently :)
 
I would also say that if you go backward and play the Fallout 1 demo, the whole point of the map is to pick your side. You basically have two gang struggling for the control of a town that have a power generator. You can choose to side with gang#1, side with gang#2, kill both gangs, kill everyone (including civilians) or destroy the power generator, which makes the struggle for the city pointless and causes everyone to leave. Once you succeed on one of those, the demo is over, and there is basically nothing else to do except recruiting a proto-dogmeat. So the whole point of the demo is to advertize the choice of which gang do you prefer to control the city. The demo can be done in 10 minutes, but if you want to try it every possible way, it will takes an hour and the differences will be huge. It feels like you are playing 5 games instead of one and prevent any kind of linearity.

Then, Fallout 1 improved those mechanics. Fallout 2 improved those again. So did New Vegas. And if Obsidian, continues to make Fallout, there would probably improve on these mechanics that is one of the core of the games since the beginning. Basically every choice you makes open you a new RP path that prevent linearity as no other playthrough is the same.
So even if New Vegas improved those mechanics, it is grounded on the work already done in previous episodes. It is not something that New Vegas just brought out of the blue, which, in my opinion, tend to counter opinions about those mechanics being out of the place in the Fallout world. There are good reasons for people saying that these mecanics were there from the beginning, albeit they could have been improved and they did been improved.

But it the same time, if those mechanics are important, so are the humor, the plot, the quality of the writting, the mature themes, the Turn-based top down gameplay, the rich backstories, the complexity of the factions, the retro-future post-apocalyptic setting, the deep look into societies, and the grey morality, amongs other stuff. On many of these aspects, i think that Fallout 1 & 2 remains as good as New Vegas if not better.

What issue need to be improved in New Vegas ?
Personally i would like to improve some aspects, but there is nothing gamebreaking, except maybe the open-world system that seems more like an empty shell that a world full of wonders.
 
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No, no, you missunderstand - I was wondering what lessons or solutions could a modder of Fallout 2 apply from NV. What did NV advance in a good way? Is it still suffering from some of the problems Fallout 2 had with the whole "yes, it's non-linear, but it's not as much as it could be"? Because I'd really love to be able to fix that in FO2.

The OP asked if NV was crippled by writing, and the answer to that "not likely", but when he described his grievances in a bit more detail, I did notice simmilarities to my own grievances with Fallout 2. Ecxept they're not about writing, but story structure. Which would make sense, because of all the FO 2 -> NV influences. If the devs were trying to improve upon the execution of the "factions in the wasteland" thing, I'm curious if some of the ideas can be applied to Fallout 2. Or if you could actually make them work better in FO2 than they do in NV, even.
 
I think that if you want to improve Fallout 2, it would be better to make a thread like "How to improve Fallout 2 ?" or even "how to improve Fallout 1 & 2 ?" so instead of debating the actual content, we would think of things we could add.

Basically, i think there are improvements in many domains.
- The Reputation system has more layers, with fame, infamy and the average given by both. So basically, you could have (not sure it is the case) characters only reacting to your infamy or your fame, reacting to both or reacting to the average of both. Also, as you can't lose infamy or fame, everything matters.
- The faction related disguise applied to most factions is great. Also, it provide a reason not to wear power armor all the time.
- Since most faction are in the same area (the Mojave) most factions has deep relationship with most others instead of just their closest neighbours. (even if i prefer more cities, far from each other. It allows some real changes between areas and enough space for each settlement to be complete.
- Companions have an average better quality and involvement. In Fallout 2, you had a few characters that are still relevant after you recruited them. Basically, Vic is usefull in Vault City, Sulick has his sister's quest (with the RP), while Myron & Marcus keep great dialogs. Some other have very few additionnal interactions like Miria in Reno or Lenny with a few hidden ghoul outside Gecko. But for the most part, companions are most interesting before you recruited them, and become quite generic after they are recruited. It is almost a shame with Goris, K-9 and Skynet that show incredible potential, but have generic dialogs afterward, with no additionnal quests. They are almost as bad as Fallout 3 followers.
- The Hardcore mode and the crafting, that i haven't tried them yet.
- The Wild Wasteland trait, that is a VERY underused perk ingame, appear to be a way to appeal both the fans of ultra-realism and those you are fond of some of far less realistic ideas. So the concept is good, but even New Vegas lack of those moments.
- Beside Benny quest, you can choose between four MAIN quests, not just side quests.
- There are a few quests that really reward sneaking. You basically can't make peace with Tabitha or Davison's crew if you don't.
- Many characters change location after their quest is done. But those characters cease to be relevant in the plot afteward.
- Some locations can change faction ingame. (Primm, Nelson)
- Otherwise, i don't think charisma/gender/intelligence/slaver or other status influence your playtrough as much as it did in Fallout 2.
 
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Ok, so, a lot of that sounds great and would be much appreciated in Fallout 2 and if well implemented would actually bring out the potential of the world and the quality of writing. At least I'm kinda sure noone would seriously mind...

But - what about linearity the non linearity bussiness in FO.NV? That is, how is the loot/XP distributed? How about quest rewards?
 
But - what about linearity the non linearity bussiness in FO.NV? That is, how is the loot/XP distributed? How about quest rewards?
I can't understand what you saying.
is there any connection between non-linearity and loot/xp distribution and quest reward?
 
Oh yes - it's not just about wheter the roaming monsters scale to your level or not (that's actually less of a problem), it's also about how visiting a place "out of sequence" affects the rest of the game. Fallout 2, for example, fails really hard here because the fixed loot/quest rewards are allocated to cities in a more or less linear progression - you can sorta visit them in the order you want, but if you do, you might get a bunch of levels just for walking down the street. This leads to all kinds of problems with the balance/economy of the world, so much so that 15 years later people are still making "economy rebalance mods" which always kinda fail because noone's adressing this XD

But the OP of this thread has issues with linearity/non-linearity of NV compared to FO3, and I feel like it has nothing to do with the main quest of either, but it might have with this. FO3, being mostly a combat game, wouldn't have as much problems with this, but NV might.

So in NV if there's non-combat quests which award XP, and also containers/shelves with rather strong loot laying around, and you get them and then backtrack, the challenges which don't scale to your level might become too easy. Or if you pick loot/gear up this way it doesn't matter if they scale. Or if the monsters scale and you just get the easy XP... you get the picture.

So are there any pronounced side-effects to playing it non-lineraly in terms of visiting inhabited locations/quest hubs?

How does XP / quest rewards / loot in cities work in NV?
 
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I confess i didn't often asked myself if that item x or that reward x is right to be there.

But about the linearity stuff, i don't think it should be limited to the geography.

I mean, if you take the Fallout 1 demo example again, there is only a single map, with the same design and the same npc. Your characters stats can't be changed as the demo doesn't allow it. Yet, you set yourself five different goal. Those goals each open a different narrative path. For each path, the gameworld will react on a different way. If you support Gang#1, they will help you agains't Gang#2. If you kill both gangs, the citizens will be happy and so on...

The linearity/non-linearity, as i see it, is based on the choices you could make, how the game world react to it, and if those choices open you new narrative path. It's why i consider, for instance, "The Last Of Us" as "fully" linear, as you have no choices, while Metro Last Light is "Mostly" linear as many of the choices you make have a very little impact in short term and a bigger impact in the end. So those choices get aknowledged by the game, but it the same time, the level design is the same and you will follow the same storyline. Fallout Tactics is also "Mostly" linear. You can't choose the order of your missions, you can't choose your mission, you can't choose the main objectives of these, but you can open some narrative path, in the way you handle some secondary objectives or the final objective. The Bethesda Fallout 3's game is quite non-linear and almost linear in the way that it allows many choices, but for the most cases, fails to aknowledge the choices you make, because of the lack of consequence. If you kill thousands of Brotherhood of steel, it doesn't open any new narrative path, as the other members of that group won't aknowledge what you did. It almost like you didn't do it. So at the end, you didn't have a choice, since there is no reason to kill those BOS members. Only the loot would guide that choice, but the loot is not a narrative path, especially if the color of power armor you are wearing is not aknowledged by other people. You could wear an outcast power armor and still be loved by the Lyons brotherhood. There are choices with some consequences, but in that game, those are the exceptions, not the rule.

In Fallout 2, you can also change the order of the locations you visit, but there is clearly an intended path, with cities relevant to the plot (Arroyo>Klamath>Den>Vault City>NCR>Vault13-15>New Reno>Vault13>San Francisco/Navarro>Oil Rig) and others that you could skip but are on your path. (Modoc/Broken Hills/Sierra/Redding/Mariposa). Sure, you can go backward and start with San Francisco, to finish with Klamath, but then it would mean that you will look for a vault, after you found the Geck, then find information about the water bottle, then, after you know everything about that bottle, release the guy that sold that bottle to your village, then ask about him in Klamath, when he is already with you, then goes wonder about that poor Hakunin, after you saved the other survivors from your village.

If you want to change the order of cities that you will explore could be for two reasons. You could dislike some of them, and don't intend to explore them anyway on that specific playthrough. Or you could go first to some endgame cities, precisaly because you want to access to high tier stuff or better XP reward. Scaling those would, in my opinion, make people lose any interest in messing with the exploration intended order. (except if you just want to avoid that particular city that you hate with all your guts. But having a game advertizing the fact that you to skip some locations doesn't speak well on those locations)

Of course, i just mean going in those locations in general, but in particular, there could be some reasons to go in some places in a different order. If you want to save deathclaw, you better not go into Vault 13 before you nuked the Enclave. Also it seems better to fully explore NCR/Vault city, before finishing Bishop quests, or wait for having talked to anyone you needed, before taking that tattoo from Metzger. Specific things can change if you change the order of your exploration, but those cases are mainly exceptions. So in the general sense, it better to explore the main quest and the local quests in the intended order, except for specific things.
 
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it's also about how visiting a place "out of sequence" affects the rest of the game.
yes, that is important. but that doesn't mean meaningless quest RPG is good.

Fallout 2, for example, fails really hard here because the fixed loot/quest rewards are allocated to cities in a more or less linear progression
Actually, if you don't know what to do or where to get something, fixed loot is better way to make player searching for loot rather than grinding enemy to get better items.

I feel like it has nothing to do with the main quest of either
Non-linearity is tied with mainquest because how to solve game is matter of linearity.
even subquests are boring, the game still can be non-linear. games like Ultima 4 for example, what you have to do is just asking around and explore dungeons. but it's one of non-linear game. in short, non-linear game means game's main quest is non-linear.
not just mean some part of sub-quest is non-linear.

Eh... I think you didn't understand what is non-linearity.
fo3 isn't nonlinear game. actually it also can not be a linear game because game itself has no meaningful goal. it's just meaningless linear shooter but looks like RPG.

no reason to solve something, solving something doesn't lead to somethig or matter to something, no reason to searching something. what I want to say is, linearity or non-linearity is matters because there is goal. but without goal, it doesn't matters game is non-linear or linear.

and for NV, it has goal and there are lots of way to reach to the goal.
plus, NV has good consequence for your deed which gives another goal(like making world better). so NV is good non-linear game
 
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