Is President Bush Furthering a Libertarian Agenda?

welsh said:
@Pajari- Every one who cries out about the environment cries about the spotted owl. Fuck that. It's an endangered species, it gets protected. Who has the right to wipe out a species because its economically expediant? Bullshit.

Except that it wasn't being wiped out by logging, but by a natural predator. Whoops! That's the problem with a lot of environmental regulations- it doesn't make any sense or have any real basis in science.

Automobile safety- yes, its terrible that automobile manufactures can't make unsafe cars- although they do make unsafe SUVs so you can still do that.

Actually, I was saying that automobile standards need to be tighter. 55k deaths a year has to be preventable.

Oh and who really needs old growth forests anyway. We can always sell those logs to the Japanese for cheap.... like they do in Alaska.

I don't think you're serious, but we don't 'wipe out ' forests anymore. We harvest selectively and take the oldest and ripest trees, freeing up room for the younger ones to grow. It's basic forestry, and it's actually conducive to a better forest ecology.

The reason we tax inheritance? Because the money is not earned but a gift, and gifts get taxed. Did the person who inherited that money do anything to deserve it? No? Fuck them. Why do they deserve the money and the rest of us don't?

Wait, so someone has do deserve the money according to Welsh for it to be ok? Since when does it matter if the person deserves it or not? We live in a nation where professional basketball players who spend their days smoking blow and beating up irate fans are paid orders of magnitude more than a high school English teacher who positively impacts hundreds of students over the course of his career. This economy has never been about deserving the money- if someone gives it to you, then you deserve it according to them and that's all the matters.

The beautiful thing about the estate tax is that if the person dieing is smart they have a tax attorney who sets up charitable trusts that go into things like museums, schools, parks, etc- which are good for the community.

Or they just funnel it to an offshore account or invest it in bonds for their progeny (or launder it!). Only the Andrew Carengies do that kind of stuff, and sadly they're all to rare today.

As for inherited wealth? I don't think we need more aristocrats with financial power.

As if the inheritance tax is the only thing preventing us from having some sort of jolly-pip fox-hunting landed aristocracy. Ridiculous. The rich will beget the rich no matter what the government does, the only people affected are those that don't pass on a whole lot.

As for the mail? Why stop there and not just privitize jails, schools and everything else? We can license out Christmas too.

Come on, that's a complete departure from what I was talking about. Jails are part of the justice system and schools are a government service (less so than jails, admittedly). The post office is about as benign a government organization as there is. This is a bit sensational.

Yeah, and Christmas is about as liscensed out as you can get. I guess the pagans got their way after all :P.
 
Ah... so you are preaching libertarianism again?

What can I say, I'm a believer. :)

I never meant to imply that Corporate Anarchism was a realistic ideal. The very nature of corporations in a free market, is that ultimately one of them has to come out on top, whether that be through mergers or market competition. The end result is an entity which controls practically all means of consumtion, without any Nationalist or military check presented by a government and national military.

Therefore, in order to maintain power, the mega-corporation simply needs to convince people to consume, which is why I described it as A Brave New World without psychedelics. Whether they do so with low-low prices or coercion is irrelevant, it isn't like a monopoly where shifting consumer trends and upstart competition creates fluid industries, which keeps a monopoly's powers from being limitless and indefinite. The same can't be said, however, when the big fish eats all the small ones, since the big fish owns all aspects of life, and is thus able to control consumer trends and industry natures from its own gigantic umbrella.

Autocratic, if not Fascistic, since as you've kindly pointed out, Welsh, Fascism relies heavily on nationalist sentiments to perpetuate the power of the sate. With no state to speak of, there is no nationalism. Unless, of course, the Corporation becomes the new state, and the situation is no longer anarchic.

My point here is that it's historically unrealistic and utopian. While we may wish this to be true, in fact... history shows us that it isn't.

In what sense? When non-aggression is fronted by libertarian interests, it's usually assumed that the state is there to enforce it. The state has to exist in order to enforce it, because non-aggression cannot be a utopian ideal, as there will always be an aggressor. It's a matter of human nature to try and screw one's fellow man, which is why the state must exist to protect us from each other.

The Libertarian argument is that the state does not have the right to protect us from ourselves.

This is why the suggestion that non-aggression should only apply as a guideline is ludicrous, and that anybody who thinks so has to be off of his rocker.

I hoped that clarified things for you, Welsh, I didn't exactly communicate as effectively as I thought I did, which I'll get to in a minute.

You mentioned the consequences of justifying self-defense, and I agree. Ultimately, whether or not one does act in self-defense is irrelelvant, the key is being able to provide reasonable proof that one has acted in self defense. The establishment of self defense is brought about by an investigation, and while you could argue that some crafty criminal mastermind could effectively make a crime look like self-defense as opposed to murder, then I would counter with a "how do you know they don't do that already?" There's a whole string of serial killers that were never brought to justice and they made no effort to hide their malice. What makes you think that the current system is any better when it comes to finding and prosecuting criminals?

This is pretty foolish, Brady. "The poor to act collectively?" You're kidding.

No, I'm quite serious. This is my serious face.

A Libertarian government is one that removes itself from special interests, and allows people to settle them collectively or locally as opposed to nationally. If the wealthy lack the means to use government to coerce, and the only legitimate presence of force is that which is accountable to tax payers and voters, they would have no choice but to react to collective action on behalf of the previously disenfranchised.

Washington is a breeding ground for special interests and their lobbies, which can easily corrupt national policy, since the very nature of the Federal government is that it removes Representatives and appointed policy makers from their voting constituencies. (appointees especially, as they can easily be swept under the carpet, and the average citizen is largely ignorant of their influence)

By limiting the powers of the Federal government, the administrating bodies most accountable to voting constituencies are the ones which affect local policy are also the ones with the most influence. When the Fed becomes transparent, it's impossible to corrupt its policy without making an overt action.

And yet, all of this ultimately requires an aware and informed consumer who is better able to react to harmful trends, which I think tools like the Internet have enabled more than any other. The nature of a world where people are no longer given lip service by politicians which create a false sense of security also provides the incentive to become informed where there was none before. The world is a harsh place, and people need to be aware of that. How can people react to harmful influences on the country when you can't detect the problem before its too late, and there's no incentive to become informed about the problem?

Of course, Libertarianism isn't something you can just be bourgeoisie about. It's an all-or-nothing sort of thing in order to breed the truly informed consumer and equal society. The nature of politics is one where Libertarian platforms have to focus on issues that decrease corruption in government, increase civil liberties, and create fair, universal systems.

Somebody will always dissent, which is why the party has to remain realistic, and why Badnarik screwed the pooch by making a big stink about legalizing Marijuana.

The danger is not government, but bad government. And government run by special interests, is especially bad.

What the Libertarians would say is that the state is the instrument of evil. Perhaps. But it is those for whom the state serves as an instrument, that are the real problem.

Which is why the state must be accountable to the people as a whole, as opposed to a few. How accountable is the state to us when the legal code is so monstrously complicated that the people with the right resources can navigate the law to impunity? How accountable is the state when our own elected official can effectively declare himself exempt from laws that he himself has passed?

Are you thinking about privitizing education all over? And thereby create an even dumber workforce?

Hells to the no.

Education is one of the few things I'm directly in opposition to regarding the Libertarian norm.

An educated citizenry is the one that is most capable of protecting its freedoms. Having a gun isn't enough when one can be duped into submission. This is why I think that universally accessible and comprehensive education is key to the government's ability to protect our rights. If people were more well informed of the world and its nature, then they would be more keen to spot corrupting influences.

"Investing in education and making it better" is not easy. Making education better requires a complete overhaul of the school system as it stands. What point is there in investing more in a school system that allows teachers impunity through tenure? Our public school teachers are the most inept, and corrupt educators in the developed world. Not to imply of course, that all teachers are bad, but when there's no real incentive other than the personal one to excel in the field of education, the overall quality of education diminishes.

That's why I feel a Federally run voucher system is key. The private schools that are nothing more than yuppie circle jerks can continue to charge an excess, but the schools that actually have an interest in education will be forced to provide efficient and comprehensive services. Schools can't be infallible, they have to conduct themselves as a competing business, otherwise its administrators and faculty would be (and are) corrupt with a lack of scrutiny.

The answer to bad government is not "no government" but "better" of "good" government.

Which is what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm no anarchist.
 
Pajari said:
Actually, I was saying that automobile standards need to be tighter. 55k deaths a year has to be preventable.
You do drive, correct?

From what I observe nearly every time I drive, I believe that tightening the standards for obtaining a driver's license (and making it easier to revoke in cases of reckless and drunk driving) would be a better step. Cars are in many cases very safe, given the forces involved in a crash. Along with protecting the innocent, the safety of modern automobiles helps prevent bad drivers from killing themselves.
 
Kotario said:
Pajari said:
Actually, I was saying that automobile standards need to be tighter. 55k deaths a year has to be preventable.
You do drive, correct?

From what I observe nearly every time I drive, I believe that tightening the standards for obtaining a driver's license (and making it easier to revoke in cases of reckless and drunk driving) would be a better step. Cars are in many cases very safe, given the forces involved in a crash. Along with protecting the innocent, the safety, helps prevent bad drivers from killing themselves.

You got me there. I guess I was giving too much weight to the SUV rollover stuff, and not enough to good 'ol incompetence. For the record, I do drive, but not in a state where traffic is really an issue, so I haven't had the opportunity that someone from Boston or DC would have to observe idiots behind the wheel up close.
 
Pajari said:
I don't think you're serious, but we don't 'wipe out ' forests anymore. We harvest selectively and take the oldest and ripest trees, freeing up room for the younger ones to grow. It's basic forestry, and it's actually conducive to a better forest ecology.

So... what you're saying is destorying old-growth forests is not such a bad thing and that its actually good for the environment? Can you explain this or cite some support that flies in the face of evidence to the contrary?

Wait, so someone has do deserve the money according to Welsh for it to be ok? Since when does it matter if the person deserves it or not? We live in a nation where professional basketball players who spend their days smoking blow and beating up irate fans are paid orders of magnitude more than a high school English teacher who positively impacts hundreds of students over the course of his career. This economy has never been about deserving the money- if someone gives it to you, then you deserve it according to them and that's all the matters.

Well if the goal of a capitalist economy is to push individuals to be productive and competitive, exactly how does rewarding a person by virtue of their birth in "the right family" support that economy?

Exactly why shouldn't a person who inherits pay taxes? Did they earn that money? Did they work for it? No, they got it because of virtue of birth?

I have more support for the basketball player who snorts up his earned living. He at least works for it as an entertainer and if he gets paid a lot of money, it is because the industry rewards it. Afterall sport is a big business, and it seems fair to pay its labor a competitive rate. Or are you against competitive rates?

Paying teachers better salaries is one reason I might sympathize with Bradylama's suggest of more private schools- if only that didn't deny better education to those who need it most.

By ending the estate tax you are basically securing the right to privilege by birth and not by hard work. That creates a society of elites perpetuating elites.

The truth about the "death tax"
Or they just funnel it to an offshore account or invest it in bonds for their progeny (or launder it!). Only the Andrew Carengies do that kind of stuff, and sadly they're all to rare today.

As if the inheritance tax is the only thing preventing us from having some sort of jolly-pip fox-hunting landed aristocracy. Ridiculous. The rich will beget the rich no matter what the government does, the only people affected are those that don't pass on a whole lot.

@Pajari- Do you do think about what you say before you say it?

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THere's more on this if you need further proof that philanthropic giving has gone up.

And while rich may begat rich, one of the beauties of the American system is that class mobility should happen at both the top and bottom. Just as those at the bottom should have the ability to compete and climb the social ladder, so should those who have significant wealth lose their position should they squander their inherited wealth or fail to use it wisely.

This to is part of an effective capitalist economy- the mobility of social classes by effort and hardwork, not inherited wealth.

Come on, that's a complete departure from what I was talking about. Jails are part of the justice system and schools are a government service (less so than jails, admittedly). The post office is about as benign a government organization as there is. This is a bit sensational.

And yet, violating or interfering with the mail is still a crime. Mail fraud still sends you to jail. And while we may bitch and moan about spam snail mail, that is a form of protected speech.

And generally sending the mail via the post is a lot cheaper than UPS, Fed Ex or any other services.

Seriously, Pajari, this is nonsense. Don't you realize that in some countries you can't pay your bills by check and through the mail? Rather you have to go to the bank and cash the check personally, and it becomes a major hassle (and a waste of money). The existence of our postal service (and the security of our banking system- thanks in part due to changes created by FDR), has made oru capitalist economy operate more smoothly than many other parts fo the world.

Seriously, think about what you say before you say it.

@Bradylama-

While I agree with some of your thoughts, there are some I find questionable.

White the legal system should be simplified and loopholes be removed- the truth is that those loopholes are created in large part due to distribution of power among social actors which translates to their ability to change the legal institutions in ways that benefit them.

(and this isn't uniquely an American problem- this is true in Europea as well).

So it seems that the major problem is not so much government, but special interests and the ability of a few (by virtue of the lower costs of collective action) to implement changes that benefit them- especially in the area of extraction.

(Thus a small part of the population has been able to get tax breaks that generally benefit them at the expense of the majority).

The goal then would be to limit that interest or opportunity. So how about this-
(1) No corporate giving. Corporations are legal persons, not real persons. So they can be regulated.
(2) Limiting the ability of each individual to contribute to political campaign.
(3) Transparency in election campaigning- those that participate should tell who it is that pays the ads?

While I agree that school systems should be made more competitive, I am not sure if school vouchers, if federally granted, is the way to do it. I am not even sure if this is good libertarianism- after all aren't you involving the state in the lives of individuals?

Personally I think each individual should be entitled to similar education regardless of where they live or the income bracket. The federal government could mandate minimal levels of education and allow the states to actually provide more. This is no different than civil rights across the US- the federal government sets a minimum standards and the states can surpass, but not go under that level. The reason why education is not a civil right is partially because no one knows "how much" education is equal. But then that's also true of a woman's right to choose or a variety of other civil rights.

If you want competition, than making schools competitive amongst each other might be a better way to go. People often vote with their feet- moving to districts with higher property values, and property values are often a function of a variety of numbers, including quality of schools. Schools do get ranked.

As for tenure teachers- yes, it does create incompetence, but considering the low pay of teachers and the need to attract qualified teachers to the profession, tenure is one of the few incentives that continues to exist. Few would go into the teaching profession if they knew that after 20 years of teaching and slow increases in salary, they can be removed for new graduates with lower salaries. Removing them for incompetence or regular review processes might be a better way of going than dumping the tenure system completely.

The problem with the voucher system is that you are subsidizing elites to maintain elite schools. Already it is easier for a kid from a private school to get into a good university than a kid for a public school. More class division in the US is what we don't need. More social mobility between classes is a good thing- and limits the possibility of class conflict in the long-term by vesting everyone in the stability and improvements of the system.

What you see is not a short term collapse of our schools, but the consequence of long-term lack of investment in producing a more effective education system. Education needs more investment, not less.
 
Well if the goal of a capitalist economy is to push individuals to be productive and competitive, exactly how does rewarding a person by virtue of their birth in "the right family" support that economy?

Eccentric squandering. :)

By ending the estate tax you are basically securing the right to privilege by birth and not by hard work. That creates a society of elites perpetuating elites.

That's essentially the way it works now. If the Estate Tax had an active flat rate of acceptable inheritence, like say a few million, you might have a point. Yet Wally's kids still get their billions, and when you have that kind of money it can work for you as opposed to actually having to put work into it. Eliminating the notion of an inheritance also gives a swift kick in the pants to that "profit motive" that drives the very concept of capitalism. If Jimmy and Cindy can't inherit the mansion, then why bother putting the effort into generating the capital to maintain it?

Of course, you'd still have elites being perpetuated in business. "Keep it in the family."

For the Estate Tax to do any good the way it is now, the spending generated by its revenues would have to generate something tangible. The way the government spends it's money, I have absolutely no confidence in its effectiveness, particularly when I believe that wealth is created as opposed to the notion that the wealthy horde the metaphorical 2/3rds of the pie.

None of my beliefs would actually work, though, unless put into an overall context. So if the present situation isn't realistic, what is the alternative?

White the legal system should be simplified and loopholes be removed- the truth is that those loopholes are created in large part due to distribution of power among social actors which translates to their ability to change the legal institutions in ways that benefit them.

Absolutely. What I'm saying, however, is that the nature of the legal system makes it all the easier for those actors to get away with it. Laws are passed practically every day in this country, and when people are having trouble keeping sane, how are they going to find the time to become aware of the state of the legal code? Why, one would have to have a job relating to law to keep up with it, wouldn't they? ;)

If the common citizen is unaware of what goes on in his own legal system, then it's all that easier to corrupt it.

People have the tools to be aware of law, it's just that it's impossible to find the time for it, or to have the necessary focus.

If Libertarians honestly felt that government was evil then we'd all be Anarchists. The nature of big government, however, is that it moves inevitably towards states of corruption and autocracy. Even after the New Deal, the ability of minorities to collectivise didn't really amount to much of a damn. The Civil Rights Movement wouldn't have gone anywhere without the mercy of White Guilt (or Malcolm making them collectively shit themselves).

Is it good that the powers of government were expanded to prevent the denying of citizen's rights to vote based on irrelevant criteria? Absolutely.

However, looking at the other side of the coin, it also enables forces of government to involve themselves in matters that are none of its damn business (abortion, narcotics usage, religion, Major League Baseball).

The goal then would be to limit that interest or opportunity. So how about this-
(1) No corporate giving. Corporations are legal persons, not real persons. So they can be regulated.
(2) Limiting the ability of each individual to contribute to political campaign.
(3) Transparency in election campaigning- those that participate should tell who it is that pays the ads?

I'm all for any measure that reduces the incentive for corruption in government. Is it very Libertarian to limit the amount of contributions one can make? No. Unless, however, Campaign Finance is received via taxation extraction with a flat rate, I don't think there's any real Libertarian way to reduce corruption through campaign finance.

The only context in which no limitations on campaign finance would work is in a government that is strictly Libertarian to begin with, which makes corrupt influences all the more transparent to voters. As my redneck uncle is fond of saying, though, a Libertarian government "ain't gonna happen, bruh. It just ain't gonna happen."

I'd love to talk about education, but it is very late, and work has been busting my balls all week. I'll have to address your points later.
 
welsh said:
So... what you're saying is destorying old-growth forests is not such a bad thing and that its actually good for the environment? Can you explain this or cite some support that flies in the face of evidence to the contrary?

I was saying that old growth forests aren't destroyed because we don't clearcut anymore. The forest is there, it's just that some of the older trees are taken out to let the younger ones grow in. That is good for the environment. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

Well if the goal of a capitalist economy is to push individuals to be productive and competitive, exactly how does rewarding a person by virtue of their birth in "the right family" support that economy?

Well, part of that incentive is the ability to pass on what you earned to your children so they can have the kind of life you did (or better) and not lose ridiculous amounts of it to Uncle Sam. I see it as more rewarding the person passing on the inheritance than rewarding the person recieving it.

I have more support for the basketball player who snorts up his earned living. He at least works for it as an entertainer and if he gets paid a lot of money, it is because the industry rewards it. Afterall sport is a big business, and it seems fair to pay its labor a competitive rate. Or are you against competitive rates?

Yeah, I agree that he earns it and I'm not advocating equalizing everyone's income, because that goes against the entire concept of capitalism.

Paying teachers better salaries is one reason I might sympathize with Bradylama's suggest of more private schools- if only that didn't deny better education to those who need it most.

We could do what happened in Louisiana after Katrina and hand out education vouchers for displaced families to attend private schools, since they were the first institutions back on the job after the hurricane. Of course, that could end up funneling money to religious schools and some people see that as a gray area constitutionally. Just a thought!

By ending the estate tax you are basically securing the right to privilege by birth and not by hard work. That creates a society of elites perpetuating elites.

Elites perpetuate elites regardless of a tax or two, and there is undeniable and obvious privilege by birth in this country anyway. Why punish people that want to pass on their hard work to their children? Or, at least, why punish them so much?

And while rich may begat rich, one of the beauties of the American system is that class mobility should happen at both the top and bottom. Just as those at the bottom should have the ability to compete and climb the social ladder, so should those who have significant wealth lose their position should they squander their inherited wealth or fail to use it wisely.

This to is part of an effective capitalist economy- the mobility of social classes by effort and hardwork, not inherited wealth.

Inherited wealth isn't really a threat to social mobility, because as I said before the rich will perpetuate the rich and if they screw up they end up losing everything anyway. Passing on wealth doesn't hurt the lower classes in any way- in fact you could argue that it could help those who are poorer get a better starting position. And I do recognize that social mobility is a huge part of capitalism.

And yet, violating or interfering with the mail is still a crime. Mail fraud still sends you to jail. And while we may bitch and moan about spam snail mail, that is a form of protected speech.

And generally sending the mail via the post is a lot cheaper than UPS, Fed Ex or any other services.

Seriously, Pajari, this is nonsense. Don't you realize that in some countries you can't pay your bills by check and through the mail? Rather you have to go to the bank and cash the check personally, and it becomes a major hassle (and a waste of money). The existence of our postal service (and the security of our banking system- thanks in part due to changes created by FDR), has made oru capitalist economy operate more smoothly than many other parts fo the world.

I'm not saying that the postal office was a blight on our entire nation from the moment it was founded, in fact I said it was a crucial part of our nation's development for decades (just like you said). All I'm saying now is that the time for it has passed, now that we have private companies more than capable of getting letters and packages where they need to go without large amounts of tax revenue.

Even the Japanese are doing this, and their postal office serves as a national bank!
 
Often the post office serves as a national bank because both involve transfers of capital. It only costs 39 cents (which I think is expensive) to mail a bill. If you were to go with FedEX you'd pay considerably more. Perhaps there would be competitive post offices, but you have that know, allowing the private companies to compete for specialized services and the public company (the post office) to oversee the movement of capital within the economy.

Because in addition to being a big federated republic, the US is also a big damn common market in which most of the law and regulation is not at the federal level, but at the state.

It is at the state level that you find the most corruption- not at the federal (where you have more transparency and more oversight). It's the state and local level where you have payments to judges, where executives get pay offs, where local financial or corporate interests have an easier time making pay-offs or bribes. Why-
-Because most politics is local, but that's also true for corruption.
-Because people don't pay attention as much to local politics as national
-Because its usually at the local level that the boundary between state and society becomes less.

As for the estate taxes- remember that much of your estate law and taxation is also at the state level. States have different estate laws and tax systems. Some are harsher than others. Florida's estate tax system is one reason that old folks go to Florida like elephants about to die.

But who pays the federal estate tax? Very few people. In fact if you have an estate worth $2 million you don't pay estate taxes. That excludes most people who would pay estate taxes.

WHo pays Federal Estate Taxes

So who pays the estate taxes- in fact the very people you seem afraid who won't be protected?

And if elites will still begat elites, one might thing that the children of elites get enough privileges when they're alive. Their parents get to send them to the best schools, their social connections allow them to get into the best jobs. Furthermore their parents can do estate planning to care for their children for a damn long time, even if the parent should die when the child is only an infant.

It's no wonder that it's harder to move from poor to rich in the US than almost any other developed western democracy. Europe, the land of aristocrats, has more social mobility than the US.

So really, who pays the "death tax"? Only 1 out of 200 people. By 2009 it will only be 3 people per 1000. And why these poor bastards? Because they are the only ones with estate taxes large enough for us to tax. Do these folks really need more privileges?

Myth 6: Eliminating the estate tax would encourage people to save and thereby make more capital available for investment.

Reality: Eliminating the estate tax wouldn’t dramatically affect private saving, and it would greatly increase government dissaving (i.e., deficits).
A recent Congressional Research Service report found that the estate tax’s net impact on private saving is unclear — it causes some people to save more and others to save less — and that its overall impact on national saving is likely quite small. "f the only objective [of eliminating the estate tax] were increased savings," the report concluded, "it would probably be more effective to simply keep the estate and gift tax and use the proceeds to reduce the national debt."

The reason is simple: while repealing the estate tax might lead some people to save more, it also would lead the government to borrow more to offset the lost revenue. Government borrowing "soaks up" capital that would otherwise be available for investment in the economy. In the case of repealing the estate tax, the added government borrowing would more than outweigh any added private saving, leaving the economy no better off, and quite possibly worse off.


More myths? Center on Budget and Policies Priorities
 
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