Is the hunt for Enclave members justified?

[fred2]

They don't hunt SM. and NCR and BoS Mojave chapter are at war.

Yes, semantics. But as far the purpose of outlining NCR imperialistic policy they were one and the same. As you know most conflicts are about resources. The Enclave are being hunted because they are a high value target, in possession of advanced tech/installation. The war with BOS was over tensions about expansion(resources), the war with Khans(bitter springs massacre) was over expansion... Right now NCR overstretched but eventually SM will be hunted, like bandits. Isolated placed like Jacobstown might be allowed to die on their own(no reproduction) but if they become a "burden" or something like nightkin goes wrong at best they will send another band of mercenaries to create a provocation.

But we digress, the question is was if you think that the hunt for Enclave member is justified. Like I said in my previous posts, only from profit/political stand point.

 

[woo1108]

Enclave hunted because they are actually dangerous.
but actually, not all Enclave members are hunted.
like Dr Henry.

and for BoS and Khan, they start fight not NCR.
massacre was happened not because NCR intended but by miscommunication and NCR still apology to Khan for that.

I wonder why people who start Fallout from 3 mostly has fantasy of BoS and Enclave and hates NCR.

 

[Wish I had a cool name9]

I wonder why people who start Fallout from 3 mostly has fantasy of BoS and Enclave and hates NCR.

Easy, we got a taste of high tech factions that could get things done. You can't go from a getting to join a high-tech wasteland civilizing faction that can get things done without crucifixions or labor camps and then having to choose between labor camps, crucifixions and a the new mafia headed by a corporate tycoon., like they said in fallout 2 in Redding sometimes the wrong people winning is what's best for everyone.

 

[paladin_lord]

Are you kidding ? It will be always justified to hunt down and kill enclave members because they manage to be the evil faction in a world of assholes, what is an incredibly hard deed ! And the reward for that is some serious butt kicking !

Hunting Enclave people is just like hunting deathclaws ... hrm wait ... ... lol sometimes its exacly that !

Down the enclave. Gather hunters !

With Santa's support ...

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

Here is another POV: We know the Enclave have been content to wait it out in seclusion, until the Master and his Supper-mutant army emerged, who were intent to establish a Master race on the ashes of everyone else. .

There is no reference for Enclave wanting to clear entire Earth because of Master and his actions, especially because Enclave from the start treated entire population of Earth (even radiation-free BoS) as "mutants".

They just wanted to kill everyone because:
a) They couldn't go into another planet
b) They just established such policy of killing everyone outside them because they could do it

It has nothing to do with "higher" ideas like killing dangerous super-mutants and so on.

Curling:

{170}{}{Why, I thought that I had made myself perfectly clear. The conclusion that you, and all your kind, are no longer human. In order to retake the earth and to maintain the integrity of the human race, all you mutants will have to be destroyed.}"

 

[fred2]

I wonder why people who start Fallout from 3 mostly has fantasy of BoS and Enclave and hates NCR.

I actually I started from FO1 and barely finished FO3. Also my premises in this thread was:

for those who are above black and white approach, its important to remember that history is viewed through the eyes of the victors, who always take the higher ground on their own causes/motives...

BoS and Khan, they start fight not NCR.
massacre was happened not because NCR intended but by miscommunication and NCR still apology to Khan for that.

I can understand why you'd favor NCR side, through FO1/2 our actions made it happen, a beacon of democracy/order, uniting the people against common enemy. However, keep in mind that NCR which had no problem to align it self with criminal organizations, hiring raiders to force Vault city into submission, changed for the worse post Tandi. Supposed ideals traded for private interests, corruption and power strugles within, which is NCR driving force to expand in every direction. As we seen in Jacobstown, they are not bellow secretly staging provocations to advance their goal.

But I digress. I understand that you believe that BOS started the war, is that based on that tid bit from Van Buren, by NCRcitizen? I wonder if it was as simple and how the story be told from a different perspective.

As for the Khans, unless you refer to their origins, the conflict in the Mojave, came after NCR expansion and annexation in that area. Khan Raids was the best thing they could do against the mighty NCR.

As for Bitter Springs, I understand you go by Boone account. Lets assume its true and it was a miscommunication and not strategic decision to break the enemy, with orders to "fire until you're out of ammunition". Then they sniped dozens of unarmed fleeing children, women and old... Following orders, right?

 

[woo1108]

Because Khan and Enclave is actually played evil role.
at least NCR won't try bad thing to wastelander or Vault dwellers openly because their foundation of support is wastelanders and citizens not from dictator(Enclave) or raiders(Khan).
actually, whay they did at NV is rescuing Vault dwellers(if Courier rescued vault dweller at Vault 34) not attacking like Enclave.

if NCR intend to massacre, they already kill all the khans. but they still exist and NCR don't want to try to attack them. what they do is just let ranger to watch them.

 

[Languorous_Maiar]

But I digress. I understand that you believe that BOS started the war, is that based on that tid bit from Van Buren, by NCRcitizen? I wonder if it was as simple and how the story be told from a different perspective.

No, it's based on info from FNV. It's basic to Fallout lore, and you're arguing it.

Fallout: New Vegas loading screen message: "Due to disagreements over how technology should be controlled in the wasteland, the Brotherhood of Steel waged a long and bloody war against the NCR. Despite superior equipment and training, the Brotherhood eventually went into retreat."

It's clear that BoS started the war, and the BoS is evil/bad side in NCR-BoS conflict.

Enclave hunted because they are actually dangerous.
but actually, not all Enclave members are hunted.
like Dr Henry.

He is hunted too.
Just look at this:

After getting his motivator repaired, K-9 was left in NCR by the Chosen One so that he could receive necessary repairs from Dorothy and, not long after his recovery, Dr. Henry (who had been placed in critical condition after being reportedly assaulted by the Chosen One some time earlier). Dr. Henry, afraid that too much information about the Enclave would be obtained from K-9, attempted to destroy the cyborg, but was stopped by cyberdog and Dorothy, who suspected what Dr. Henry was planning. The NCR government used the attack as an excuse to confiscate K-9 and cyberdog in order to learn more information about the Enclave as well as what makes the two of them "tick." At last report (and over Dorothy's objections), K-9 and cyberdog were disassembled and analyzed. Structural damage during the disassembling is reported to have killed them both

You don't see him being opressed by NCR around 2242 because NCR didn't even knew what is "Enclave." After 2242 he moved to east with the rest of enclave people because of obvious. (repression from NCR side)

 

[fred2]

Because Khan and Enclave is actually played evil role.

..and we have to have bad guys, so we can dispense some righteous fury upon that evil Btw, in FO1, Super mutant was seen as the ultimate evil, until we meat Marcus and learned more about them as individuals...

if NCR intend to massacre, they already kill all the khans. but they still exist and NCR don't want to try to attack them. what they do is just let ranger to watch them.

What?! think bombing of Japan or Europe by the Allies, in war you rarely need to "kill all" to win. Same goes here it is possible that bitter spring was no miscomunication, but a strategic decision, to break the Khans(which it did).

Btw, I found the wikia wording on Bitter springs entry amusing, it says that NCR mistakenly shoot down dozens of young, old, and wounded Khans who attempted to escape... It reminded me that joke about someone accidentally falling on a knife dozen times. (if you went by today standards its clear cut war crime, even according to NCR version)

 

[EnclaveForever]

look at the Japan now, they didn't punished war crimes well so they try to repeat that.

What does that even mean?

 

[woo1108]

they are now worshipping war criminal and justify thier crimes like colonialization other country, massacre, forced labor etc. for me, it looks like they want to repeat that crime.

 

[Matthews]

... That makes about as much sense as my aunt. And she's insane. Ergo, that statement of yours equals to nonsense, which with a simpler word mean = rubbish.

Not to mention the whole justifying crimes part has been done SO many times by other nations already, most of them actually being from the west, like GB, France, US, Germany to name a few examples.
Anything else you'd like to have disassembled, aside from whatever point you were trying to make?

 

[Wish I had a cool name9]

Not to mention the whole justifying crimes part has been done SO many times by other nations already, most of them actually being from the west, like GB, France, US, Germany to name a few examples.
Anything else you'd like to have disassembled, aside from whatever point you were trying to make?

I remember an army wife saying "we have to supportive to are men in uniform because they have to hard stuff like kill kids".

Or another one who said it was tough on her husband and other soldiers having to kill women and children cause any of them could have been Vietcong. A lot of disturbing things don't make the news, and i' not just picking on America, India and Pakistan have had some pretty ugly wars where rape was used actively used as a weapon. The Nazis and to a lesser extent the Japanese have just gotten more publicity.

 

[EnclaveForever]

Not to mention the whole justifying crimes part has been done SO many times by other nations already, most of them actually being from the west, like GB, France, US, Germany to name a few examples.
Anything else you'd like to have disassembled, aside from whatever point you were trying to make?

I remember an army wife saying "we have to supportive to are men in uniform because they have to hard stuff like kill kids".

Or another one who said it was tough on her husband and other soldiers having to kill women and children cause any of them could have been Vietcong. A lot of disturbing things don't make the news, and i' not just picking on America, India and Pakistan have had some pretty ugly wars where rape was used actively used as a weapon. The Nazis and to a lesser extent the Japanese have just gotten more publicity.

Totally relevant to a video game!

 

[Matthews]

Blame woo1108 for the initial derail, for bringing in the japanese into this.

 

[woo1108]

it's just matter of my lack of english expression skill.
they trying to distort history, beatify their crime of colonialization, and start to steal other country's territory.

for me it lloks too similar to what Enclave did at fo3: trying to distort history, beatify their crime of "cleansing", start to steal resources of other community.

if there was no repression of America and have enough army to beat neighbor contry , Japan(actually politics) will start war.
maybe it's my delusion but as a Korean, thier act looks too creepy.

..and we have to have bad guys, so we can dispense some righteous fury upon that evil Btw, in FO1, Super mutant was seen as the ultimate evil, until we meat Marcus and learned more about them as individuals...

I just mean it's not a good idea to stand by Khan or BoS than NCR. it is obvious they are closer to evil compare to NCR. and thier raid wasn't intend to fight against NCR but just robing wastelander.

and for mis-commnication, sharpshooters include Boone was order to shoot any Khans who flee from escape route. but plans changed, Khan told NCR that road will be used by olds, women and childrens. before that information was deliver to sharpshooters, tey retreated and shooted by sharpshooters. sharpshooters knew that was something wrong but can't stop that because it was ordered to do that. after information was delivered, crime was done.

 

[Wish I had a cool name9]

Blame woo1108 for the initial derail, for bringing in the japanese into this.

I think things will always get derailed, its just the nature of a game that tries to tie in with real world events.

if there was no repression of America and have enough army to beat neighbor contry , Japan(actually politics) will start war.
maybe it's my delusion but as a Korean, thier act looks too creepy.

The problem is more that china needs resources for its growing population. Its caused them to claim not just Japanese waters but also those of Vietnam. The fact that their former ally is having problems with them shows something.

 

[paladin_lord]

mrm ... I am sorry, but are we still talking about the enclave ?

Because i have been wondering what is the usual reaction to "former" enclave members. this should be more controversial ...

 

[Wish I had a cool name9]

I don't think anyone besides the NCR and the Brotherhood care. With the Brotherhood it seems more rational sense they were attacked on both the West and East coast.