Is the master overrated as a moraly ambigious villain?

[bonanza]

You know, since I started playing the first game some year ago, I love the Fallout franchise.

However I never understood why the Villain of FO 1, the master, is so overrated in the fallout community.

"Deep", "tragic", "he only wanted to do good!", "he failed due to his good intentions" "not your typical evil I want to rule the world villain"...
Those are only a few of the attributes you can read about the master, trying to describe what an awesome, complex and "deep" villain he is.

Honest question: Am I the only one who thinks that is complete bollocks?
The master is a hidious monster, a freak. He is willing to torture and to kill innocent people to reach his goal. His goal is to turn innocent people into disgusting mutants and to create a new masterrace this way.
He is using his mutants to invade human settlements and vaults, kill everyone including women and children who aren't useful for his plans.
About his "good motives": He has good motives like Hitler. Hitler honestly though he was doing the world a favour killing the jews. Just because he thought it was a good thing, doesn't make it good nor commandable in any way.

All in all, for me the Master is pretty much the definiton of an evil villain who wants to conquer the world using some twisted idea of "good" to justify his horrible actions.

This is not intendet as a trolling thread. I love Fallout, and actually I think that because of his cliche-ness the Master fits the ironic Fallout world perfectly.

However, I don't see how he is supposed to more deep or morally ambigious than your typical evil power hungry villain.

Discuss (if you like)

 

[Brother None]

The master is a hidious monster, a freak. He is willing to torture and to kill innocent people to reach his goal. His goal is to turn innocent people into disgusting mutants and to create a new masterrace this way.
He is using his mutants to invade human settlements and vaults, kill everyone including women and children who aren't useful for his plans.
About his "good motives": He has good motives like Hitler. Hitler honestly though he was doing the world a favour killing the jews. Just because he thought it was a good thing, doesn't make it good nor commandable in any way.

I think you missed the fact that post-war humanity was doing well, which the Master recognised, and that if it weren't for the sterility problem, his supermutant race would have provided a better alternative more fit to life in the wasteland. It's not that his objectives are "good" in his eyes, they're simply good, period, only flawed because of sterility.

 

[bonanza]

I just realized that beneath me is a thread where I could have posted this. Damn, Im sorry.

Could some mod delete this thread and move my post in Brother None thread under me? Thank you and sorry again.

 

[Sorrow]

Not to mention the experiments in his vault - they are really sick and creepy...

 

[bonanza]

I think you missed the fact that post-war humanity was doing well, which the Master recognised, and that if it weren't for the sterility problem, his supermutant race would have provided a better alternative more fit to life in the wasteland. It's not that his objectives are "good" in his eyes, they're simply good, period, only flawed because of sterility.

I have to disagree. Did the Master ever ask those people he vatted if they want to be turned into this horrible creatures?
Not even to mention the fact that the Master wanted to kill of the ramaining human population (those unfit for mutation which was a vast part of the population, pretty much everyone who wasn't in a vault and therefore unradiated if I recall correclty) by mass sterilization. This is genocide.

I dont see how this could be good in your book.

 

[Sander]

I have to disagree. Did the Master ever ask those people he vatted if they want to be turned into this horrible creatures?
Not even to mention the fact that the Master wanted to kill of the ramaining human population (those unfit for mutation which was a vast part of the population, pretty much everyone who wasn't in a vault and therefore unradiated if I recall correclty) by mass sterilization. This is genocide.

I dont see how this could be good in your book.

That's because you're thinking in individualist terms instead of what's good for the greater. What's 'good' is pretty much indefinable in many cases, and this is simply a case of clashing philosophies.

However, in the case of the Master, it is very clear that his *motives *are good. He isn't doing it for power, or to wipe out anyone; he's doing it to further the world/advance the human race. Whether his goal justify the means, however, is debatable.

 

[Brother None]

I have to disagree. Did the Master ever ask those people he vatted if they want to be turned into this horrible creatures?

I'm sorry, but by what objective standard are you defining them to be horrible.

Not even to mention the fact that the Master wanted to kill of the ramaining human population

I don't remember that. Source.

 

[bonanza]

I have to disagree. Did the Master ever ask those people he vatted if they want to be turned into this horrible creatures?
Not even to mention the fact that the Master wanted to kill of the ramaining human population (those unfit for mutation which was a vast part of the population, pretty much everyone who wasn't in a vault and therefore unradiated if I recall correclty) by mass sterilization. This is genocide.

I dont see how this could be good in your book.

That's because you're thinking in individualist terms instead of what's good for the greater. What's 'good' is pretty much indefinable in many cases, and this is simply a case of clashing philosophies.

However, in the case of the Master, it is very clear that his *motives *are good. He isn't doing it for power, or to wipe out anyone; he's doing it to further the world/advance the human race. Whether his goal justify the means, however, is debatable.

Individualist terms? You put it as if it was something bad.
Two examples in history where leaders took the right, without asking the affected people, to decide what sufferings individual people had to endure for the "greater" good of the collective: communism and national socialicm. We all know how this ended.

The answer whether the goal justify the means is pretty clear for anyone who has his moral compass in the right place: No.

About the Master not doing it for power. Maybe. Hitler wasn't doing it for power, at least not alway. He thought he was serving his people. He though he was doing it for the greater good of the collective, the Volkskörper.
Does this make his actions good? In no way.

Killing people, torturing people, disforming them against their will, because YOU have arbitrary decided that this is what's good for them is evil, period. Unless you're lost a bit in postmodernistic morality.

 

[bonanza]

I have to disagree. Did the Master ever ask those people he vatted if they want to be turned into this horrible creatures?

I'm sorry, but by what objective standard are you defining them to be horrible.

We could start with aestethic standarts if you want. Those mutants are not exactly good looking, are they? Would you want to be turned into such a mutant. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't, even in these post-apocalyptic living conditions.
And again: Did the master use force to turn these people into Mutants? I think yes. What about those people who got turned into stupid mutants because of the masters experiments? They are sure happy about their fate?

In fact, I'd dare to draw the assumption that the majority of normal people would have major reservations against severe mental and physical changes (you could also say disfigurations) done to their body without they agreement, no matter if this will make them stronger or more intelligent,

Not even to mention the fact that the Master wanted to kill of the iramaining human population

I don't remember that. Source.

I'll try to find it, but I dont have Fallout installed right now. I think either the Master at the end or the Mutant Lieutenent in the military base explains this to you when you ask him about what is supossed to happen with the remaining people unfit for mutation.

Does someone know a page or a way to see this dialogues on the internet? I don't have any savegames nor Fallout installed, so it will be a bit hard to find it.

EDIT: Im pretty sure right now that you get this information from the Mutant Lieutenent after you let yourself capture in Necropolis and bring you to the military base. However, all I can offer you for now is my word for it. If anyone could confirm this or tell me if theres a way I can look trough the games dialogue I'd be very thankful.

If not, I will reinstall Fallout 1 tommorow and try to go to necropolis directly and offer me to the mutants.

 

[xdarkyrex]

The master is a great villain, not the best, but he has complexity and depth and his goals could bring a smile to many an idealists face.


But I kinda put him in the same boat as the hitler-esque villain cliche. Not that its a bad thing, but its not terribly uncommon. But I haven't heard anyone say that the master is unique, only that he is well written and his story almost makes you pity him.

 

[Sorrow]

bonanza -> You are making a mistake here - the discussion was about the motives of The Master, not about his actions.

 

[Snowguy]

If you want a crash course in the Master's philosophy, talk to Marcus, or read Richard Grey's Audio Diary. Also, try to beat him diplomatically, and listen carefully to what he says.

 

[bonanza]

If you want a crash course in the Master's philosophy, talk to Marcus, or read Richard Grey's Audio Diary. Also, try to beat him diplomatically, and listen carefully to what he says.

Did all that. None of his "reasons" altered the impression for me that he's just an evil villain who is doing horrible things and justifies with a twisted idea of good which exists only in his mind.

I felt sorry for Richard Grey and what happened to him, however if you really want to defend the master as good I don't see how you could do that beyond saying good as in "hitler had 'good' motives too"

I can see how you could defend the master as a poor, misguided by its insanity creature who is victim and offender all in one person. But 'good'? No way.

 

[bonanza]

bonanza -> You are making a mistake here - the discussion was about the motives of The Master, not about his actions.

I don't think you can just divide those two things. And what
I try to show is that his motives weren't really that noble.
All in all, when playing the game I didn't feel that humanity was in such a lost state that they would appreciate being turned into mutants for the sake of surviving.

The masters offering is not "come, Ill give you help to become stronger and more intelligent to surive in the wasteland"
His 'offer is' "come, I'll turn you into a ugly 3 meters mutant completly obedient to my will..."

I think you people tend to forget that people, no matter how horrible their condition, value their body and don't want it disfigured. Of course, in a post-apocalyptic world the number of people willing to sacrifice their humanity for the sake of surviving may become bigger. But it didnt't seem as if the master was willing to ask those people who didnt want this for their permission to do this.

Humanity would have, and did, manage to survive without being turned into a collective supermutants. It is completly unessecary.

I think you people had more of a point if the world in Fallout 1 was presented as really being at the brink of destruction. If the game did give you the clear impression that 2 or 3 years from now on every kind of human being will be wiped of the earth. And that this Master is indeed the only chance to preserve humanity, even if only in a twisted and disfigured form.
Maybe then also the option to join the Master at the end would have been more of a moral ambigious deciscion and less of a 'gimmick'.

However, there are no such indications. The Master's idea that only his race of super mutants will be able to "thrive" in the wasteland seems the result of insanity, seeing how there are functional human settlements in the wastelands. Life humanity is living is shown as hard and often very hopeless, but it doesn't seem as if the survivors as a whole would be threatened with extermination anytime soon.

Ironicly, the only major thread to communities of survivors scattered around the wasteland are the Master and his supermutants...

 

[Snowguy]

Didn't you JUST say that you listened to Marcus? Grey's objectives weren't to turn humans into his slaves... they were to become his equals (I.E. as intelligent). Another point that Marcus brought up is that humans, being stupidly attached to their bodies as you say, weren't able to grasp the need to change. By the time of Fallout 2, there was already widespread conflict and corruption that would not have been there if the Master could have succeeded.

Another thing is that the Master was convinced that humans would make the same mistakes over and over again(such as nuclear war), whereas an ideal super mutant could learn from his/her mistakes.

And comparing Richard to Adolph is laughable. Hitler had no statistics to suggest that Germans were superior to the Semitic peoples, and his objectives were to wipe out the "weak" races. Grey saw the statistics for FEV, and he understood that it could improve humanity. Furthermore, The Master's crusade was not of violent genocide, but simply to convert the eligible humans, and to pacify the remainder. Ideally, casualties would be at a minimum. After all, he wished to continue life, not end it.

To close (and to burn you), your arguments would hold more water if you used spellcheck.

 

[Sander]

Don't double post, bonanza.

Individualist terms? You put it as if it was something bad.

No I don't. I put it as if it is only one way of looking at it. I hate to go all relativist on you, but saying 'any means that serve the greater good are justified' is philosophically just as 'good' a motive as saying 'the individual should not be forced into anything'.

Both work fine, but they are conflicting philosophies.

Also, you are missing some core elements of Fallout: humanity fucked up. The world is fucked up. Humanity is completely the cause of that. Richard Grey saw that, and that's one of the reasons why he wants to save the world from humanity, and humanity from itself.

 

[bonanza]

Don't double post, bonanza.

Sorry, won't happen again.

Individualist terms? You put it as if it was something bad.

No I don't. I put it as if it is only one way of looking at it. I hate to go all relativist on you, but saying 'any means that serve the greater good are justified' is philosophically just as 'good' a motive as saying 'the individual should not be forced into anything'.

Both work fine, but they are conflicting philosophies.

[/quote]
No they don't. The idea that every individual being has - with exceptions but still to a major extent- the right to decide by himself whats good for him (unless of course he would be violating the rights of others by his action) and the principle that ends don't justify the means are a basis of democracy, the idea of human dignity etc.

Whereas this other "philosophy" has been used by all kinds of dicators and totalitarian states.

Also, you are missing some core elements of Fallout: humanity fucked up. The world is fucked up. Humanity is completely the cause of that. Richard Grey saw that, and that's one of the reasons why he wants to save the world from humanity, and humanity from itself.

By killing innocent people.
Sometimes when looking at our world- pollution, destruction of nature, war, genocide- I also think that the world should be safed from humanity.
However, that doesn't give me any right to force a small fracture of people into mutating and commiting genocide on the rest.
Only 14 year old emo kids and radical enviromentalists think they have the right to safe humanity from itself because they don't like the direction it is going into.

Also, see the last paraghraph of my above post. The world is indeed presented as fucked up, but humans are surviving without the masters help.

Didn't you JUST say that you listened to Marcus? Grey's objectives weren't to turn humans into his slaves... they were to become his equals (I.E. as intelligent).

Only those who were fit for mutation, which was only a small fracture of the population. The rest would be forbidden to breed and therefore slowly die out. Very human.

Another thing is that the Master was convinced that humans would make the same mistakes over and over again(such as nuclear war), whereas an ideal super mutant could learn from his/her mistakes.

And this is what is was - an assumption. Nobody knows for sure how this superintelligent mutants would have ended up. Seing how the Master and the few of his intelligent mutants behaved in the game, I'm not too convinced the future supermuti land would have been a bright and happy fairy tale.

And comparing Richard to Adolph is laughable. Hitler had no statistics to suggest that Germans were superior to the Semitic peoples, and his objectives were to wipe out the "weak" races.
Grey saw the statistics for FEV, and he understood that it could improve humanity.

Wait, so youre saying that if Adolf had these statistics his actions would have been somewhat justified?

Furthermore, The Master's crusade was not of violent genocide, but simply to convert the eligible humans, and to pacify the remainder. Ideally, casualties would be at a minimum. After all, he wished to continue life, not end it.

He, just like Blitzkrieg casulties were rather small. You know, even Ghandi praised Hitler for reaching his aims with relative low loss of lifes.
"Pacify the remainder", what a nice euphemism. Forbidding people to breed so that they die out after 1 or 2 generation fits exactly under the definiton of genocide.

 

[Snowguy]

*ahem*

As I said before, humans are prone to repeating their mistakes. Please check what I had said previously.

 

[bonanza]

And the Master and his muties aren't repeating this mistakes in what way exactly?

Because they will be more intelligent? Well, their intelligence didn't prevent them from killing, torturing people and doing twisted experiments with them.

Seems like a nice start into a better, brighter and more peaceful future, doesn't it?

I'd like to set something straight, because I may have used too extreme words in my beginning post, giving a wrong impression.

I dont think the Master is a plain or dumb villain. It is interesting to explore his motives and his history.

But no rational person in its right mind could really argue that his motives are "good"

 

[Snowguy]

It's got to start somewhere pal...

But then again, is that any better than what the Regulators were doing? Decker? The Raiders? The thing that separates the Unity from these people is that the mutants aim to rebuild society, whereas the other groups mentioned only wish to make money and to rule over everyone else.