welsh
Junkmaster
What do you folks think about Israel's wall? It's been in the news and I recall we've talked about it before. What are you thoughts?
Israel's wall
- Thread starter welsh
- Start date
It is Israel's god-given right to defend it's people. It's a legit country.
However, the borders of the country are kind of in dispute
I think one Palestinian said it best "The wall's meant to seperate Palestinian from Israeli, instead if's seperating Palestinian from Palestinian"
And therein lies the trouble
Plus it's very commie-style.
However, the borders of the country are kind of in dispute
I think one Palestinian said it best "The wall's meant to seperate Palestinian from Israeli, instead if's seperating Palestinian from Palestinian"
And therein lies the trouble
Plus it's very commie-style.
Big_T_UK said:
"legit" as in "recognised by the UN"
Ugly John
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
those who voted against it, sure don't feel that it's a legit country.
I don't think that a wall is going to help them.
I don't think that a wall is going to help them.
Ugly John said:
Yes. I'm sure Russia will feel the same way about Chezna were it to seperate. That is hardly relevant
Ugly John said:
A wall inspiring more hatred and anger?
It'll fix erverything!
calculon000
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
I think its supposed to keep terrorists/suicide bombers from getting in the country and hurting people.
I think that wall is just going to make things worse. Walls don't stop people, this isn't Duke Nukem 3D, where levels are surrounded by an impassible barrier and walls are indestructible.
"Fixing" the troubles with the Palestinians won't be easy, Israel itself isn't a homogenous nation on many aspects. For instance, whereas the opinions on the Palestinian state/nation are divided, an "elite" of extremely "orthodox", fundamentalist Jews, the equivalent of the Islamic ayatollahs, have a huge political weight on the nation, from schools to religious ceremonies.
Not to mention US-funded "counter-terrorism" helicopter strikes. (Clinton era)
"Fixing" the troubles with the Palestinians won't be easy, Israel itself isn't a homogenous nation on many aspects. For instance, whereas the opinions on the Palestinian state/nation are divided, an "elite" of extremely "orthodox", fundamentalist Jews, the equivalent of the Islamic ayatollahs, have a huge political weight on the nation, from schools to religious ceremonies.
Not to mention US-funded "counter-terrorism" helicopter strikes. (Clinton era)
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Actually, the wall is working. When was the last time you had two schoolbuses full of kids blown up on the same day? And even if the Isrealis did give in, just look at my sig. Those are the kind of people we are dealing with.
Not to mention the constant opression of the Christian community there, which is as old as either the Jewish and much older then the Arab presense. They benefit alot more from Isreali control.
I honestly would have no problem with Isreal taking back the Siani and cutting Syria between themselves and Lebanon. It would actually be better for democracy in the area.
Not to mention the constant opression of the Christian community there, which is as old as either the Jewish and much older then the Arab presense. They benefit alot more from Isreali control.
I honestly would have no problem with Isreal taking back the Siani and cutting Syria between themselves and Lebanon. It would actually be better for democracy in the area.
CC, Come on. Your sig is an exerpt from an extreme fundamental terrorist organization, which isn't relevant of ALL the Palestinian people. Actually, I'm sure the Fundementalist Jews could have said something similar.
Let my ass get back home from holiday and I'll do some research on some of Israel's most militant individuals.
And to answer the "when was the time...", remember that the Israeli army killed a lot of civilians with their helicopter strikes, too. And as far as I can remember, the last time some civilian bus was hit was in Iraq, during Operation Smiting Evil.
And again, I'm not supporting the terrorists, just stating that the Israelis aren't completely clean on the matter, either. They officially use torture in their inquires, for instance.
Christians aren't exactly treated fairly by militant uber-orthodox Jews, either. And the Christian part of town is rather in the Jewish sector of Jerusalem, in any case.
I don't think Muslims opress other religions more than other opress Muslims, I've been to Egypt and the Coptic community there doesn't seem opressed at all.
Let my ass get back home from holiday and I'll do some research on some of Israel's most militant individuals.
And to answer the "when was the time...", remember that the Israeli army killed a lot of civilians with their helicopter strikes, too. And as far as I can remember, the last time some civilian bus was hit was in Iraq, during Operation Smiting Evil.
And again, I'm not supporting the terrorists, just stating that the Israelis aren't completely clean on the matter, either. They officially use torture in their inquires, for instance.
Christians aren't exactly treated fairly by militant uber-orthodox Jews, either. And the Christian part of town is rather in the Jewish sector of Jerusalem, in any case.
I don't think Muslims opress other religions more than other opress Muslims, I've been to Egypt and the Coptic community there doesn't seem opressed at all.
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
What Wooz said. That was weak and cheap CC.
Even if the wall works on the long term, is the price worth it?
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
Oh great, so if a smaller minority gets better from it it's ok to crush the bigger minority?
Good thinking
ConstinpatedCraprunner said:
It would be better for democracy? I doubt that, but even if it is, that in no way justifies them to do so. If that were true America should invade Cuba right now, but it can't, it doesn't have the right.
I think the wall won't solve anything permanently but it will provide a measure of consistency and stability in the disputed regions. A little bit of stability should allow time for people to simmer down some, reducing tensions and making peace talks more likely.
You could argue that the Berlin Wall separated the country and was the essence of the Iron Curtain and therefore a bad idea. Or you could argue that it stabilized relations between the power blocks and allowed the East and West time to simmer down and let history run its course. I think parallels can be drawn between the effect of the Berlin Wall and this fence.
Hence, I think that in the short term the fences are good for mideast peace. But they are not a permanent solution, as no barrier ever is, and is evidenced by the Great Wall of China.
You could argue that the Berlin Wall separated the country and was the essence of the Iron Curtain and therefore a bad idea. Or you could argue that it stabilized relations between the power blocks and allowed the East and West time to simmer down and let history run its course. I think parallels can be drawn between the effect of the Berlin Wall and this fence.
Hence, I think that in the short term the fences are good for mideast peace. But they are not a permanent solution, as no barrier ever is, and is evidenced by the Great Wall of China.
welsh
Junkmaster
There is that old adage from Robert Frost that "strong walls makes for good neighbors."
SO you don't think it will work?
SO you don't think it will work?
John Uskglass
Venerable Relic of the Wastes
Yes. It works, does it not?
And the thing is, Isrealis kill civilans when they try to kill terrorists. Palestininas just kill civilians.
Fair enough, but realize that the Isrealis do treat the Christians better, and that they are a signifigant portion of the population.
Well, consdiering that the Mid East is about as democratic as Germany in 1937, I think it would. And the argument could be made that as it is not a democratic government, it does not have the right to exsist.
welsh said:
When your neighbors want you dead, I don't think a fence will do it. Implicit in this adage is the idea that neighbors are willing to leave well enough alone, to mind their own business. Even if Israel allows Palestine to become a separate country or whatever, do you really think the terrorist attacks will stop?
I don't think it will work in the long run, but will provide the necessary cooling off period to allow peace talks to restart.
One sign it may be working is Sharon's recently softened stance on the Palestinian issue. Or not, fact is I haven't followed the debates as rigorously as I need to to form a fully thought out opinion on the subject; the above is more my take based on historical precedent.
One thing I think is certain though, that every side is going to have to cave on its core demands if there is ever going to be peace in Israel. Any other way will leave someone pissed off and continue the cycle of brutality; all over religion too, how ironic.
One sign it may be working is Sharon's recently softened stance on the Palestinian issue. Or not, fact is I haven't followed the debates as rigorously as I need to to form a fully thought out opinion on the subject; the above is more my take based on historical precedent.
One thing I think is certain though, that every side is going to have to cave on its core demands if there is ever going to be peace in Israel. Any other way will leave someone pissed off and continue the cycle of brutality; all over religion too, how ironic.
welsh
Junkmaster
Gwydion said:
No, actually I don't. I am just raising the notion. There is an argument that one of the strange consequences of ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia is that people moved from one place that was insecure to a place that was more secure. That soldiers and tanks are the brick and mortar of wall might explain peace. That territory might be acheived via a fait accompli, might eventually clarify what territory is whose might contain the violence. But I agree, doubtful.
Do I believe that theory, personally. No. Not for former Yugoslavia and not for the Middle East.
My take on the position is that you have moderates on both sides that probably want peace, and you have extremists on both sides that want to polarize the issue through acts of instigation, be they violent or not.
I suspect that the problem there will not be resolved until one side eventually wins, but I am hopeful, if pessimistic, about the chances of long term peace.
What you all dont know is that I am half Israeli, thats right my father is jew who lives in Israel. Iv'e been there and faced the evil truth...facts:
When Israel was founded back in....1948 I think, they got the land of the palestinians. Note: It was a desert, inhabitet not by millions but by some thausand, it wasent right that the Israel got to clam the land, but they did.
having being shut out from every country because theyre jews got them this new dessert country.
After 2 years of hving this desert wasteland they get attacked. Not from one country now but from Irak,Egypt,Palestina,Syria and more countries. They defend and win, conquering more than twice their land size from the attacking countries.
Ive been in Israel and I know how Israelis feel about arabs...its not good. My father hates arabs...dont get me wrong, not all arabs he had a good arab friend named moshi once.
Anyway this doesnt count for every Israeli in the country, some feel sorry for them,.
I remember my steph mom who lives in Israel telling me about a friend of hers feeling sorry for the palestinians. She felt sorry for them and wanted to help them till one day she I thjink read somewhere that Israeli palestinians encouraged their children to hate true Israelis, they even formed suicider camps where children could sign up to one day become a suicider and die in the name of Alah, wich is fucking bullshit and is why she started hating those palistinians starting that shit.
And I agree, that is wrong in so many levels.
Anyway Im not sure when the suicidce bombings started, its not long ago.
Every time they suicide Israel counterstrikes by using their normal tactic wich is using tanks with helicopter support and blowing and occupying another village.
Suiciding is not helping them, instead its forcing the Israeli government to take precautions like building the wall hurting palestinians not connected to the suicides.
I bet you dont know that alot of palestinians depend on Israel for work since their own government cant provide them with some.
And those of you that say that Israel should declare peace with Palestina whats that going to do? Palestina has no power, their citicens do what they feel like.
The former "president"(dictator) of Palestina was Yassir Arafat who took all of the palestinian budget making him...no joke...one of the top 5 richest people in the world.
Having a leader strealing mony from your country is definently not helping to stop the suicide attacks is it?
I have alot more to disciss about this topic and me being sorta frunk isnt helping you understand what im talking about so Im gonna stop ight now and poste more when im sober, thank you all for reading all of this.
When Israel was founded back in....1948 I think, they got the land of the palestinians. Note: It was a desert, inhabitet not by millions but by some thausand, it wasent right that the Israel got to clam the land, but they did.
having being shut out from every country because theyre jews got them this new dessert country.
After 2 years of hving this desert wasteland they get attacked. Not from one country now but from Irak,Egypt,Palestina,Syria and more countries. They defend and win, conquering more than twice their land size from the attacking countries.
Ive been in Israel and I know how Israelis feel about arabs...its not good. My father hates arabs...dont get me wrong, not all arabs he had a good arab friend named moshi once.
Anyway this doesnt count for every Israeli in the country, some feel sorry for them,.
I remember my steph mom who lives in Israel telling me about a friend of hers feeling sorry for the palestinians. She felt sorry for them and wanted to help them till one day she I thjink read somewhere that Israeli palestinians encouraged their children to hate true Israelis, they even formed suicider camps where children could sign up to one day become a suicider and die in the name of Alah, wich is fucking bullshit and is why she started hating those palistinians starting that shit.
And I agree, that is wrong in so many levels.
Anyway Im not sure when the suicidce bombings started, its not long ago.
Every time they suicide Israel counterstrikes by using their normal tactic wich is using tanks with helicopter support and blowing and occupying another village.
Suiciding is not helping them, instead its forcing the Israeli government to take precautions like building the wall hurting palestinians not connected to the suicides.
I bet you dont know that alot of palestinians depend on Israel for work since their own government cant provide them with some.
And those of you that say that Israel should declare peace with Palestina whats that going to do? Palestina has no power, their citicens do what they feel like.
The former "president"(dictator) of Palestina was Yassir Arafat who took all of the palestinian budget making him...no joke...one of the top 5 richest people in the world.
Having a leader strealing mony from your country is definently not helping to stop the suicide attacks is it?
I have alot more to disciss about this topic and me being sorta frunk isnt helping you understand what im talking about so Im gonna stop ight now and poste more when im sober, thank you all for reading all of this.
AFAIK, the longest wall in existence today separates the US and Mexico. It helps to control access from illegal immigrants and drug runners but is far from foolproof. Many people still manage to get across bt paying coyotes and several large tunnels have been dug beneath the borders by criminals. There is no doubt it needs to be there as the disparate economies would cause massive movement towards the US and the amount of drugs crossing would be incredibly large if there was nothing in place. But it is an immense job to patrol and maintain. I don't know of any figures for an annual budget but it has to be a large drain.