Jihadists and anarchists?

welsh

Junkmaster
Are they birds of a feather?

Can we expect the same to happen to the Jihadists as the anarchists? Death not by bullet but by declining fashion?

Or are we stuck with these individuals, who pursue violence in the name of some larger-than-life goal, but really only because of their own ego and vanity?

The anarchists

For jihadist, read anarchist

Aug 18th 2005
From The Economist print edition
Mary Evans

Repression did little to stop anarchist violence. But eventually the world moved on and the movement withered

BOMBS, beards and backpacks: these are the distinguishing marks, at least in the popular imagination, of the terror-mongers who either incite or carry out the explosions that periodically rock the cities of the western world. A century or so ago it was not so different: bombs, beards and fizzing fuses. The worries generated by the two waves of terror, the responses to them and some of their other characteristics are also similar. The spasm of anarchist violence that was at its most convulsive in the 1880s and 1890s was felt, if indirectly, in every continent. It claimed hundreds of lives, including those of several heads of government, aroused widespread fear and prompted quantities of new laws and restrictions. But it passed. Jihadism is certainly not a lineal descendant of anarchism: far from it. Even so, the parallels between the anarchist bombings of the 19th century and the Islamist ones of today may be instructive.

A good look at terrorism at the end of the nineteenth and early 20th century shows remarkable similarities- especially the motive- to create a 'better' world through violent despotism.

Islamists, or at least those of the Osama bin Laden stripe, have several aims. Some—such as the desire “to regain Palestine”, to avenge the killing of “our nation's sons” and to expel all “infidel armies” from “the land of Muhammad”—could be those of any conventional national-liberation movement. Others are more millenarian: to bring everyone to Islam, which, says Mr bin Laden, “is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and persecuted.” All this will come to pass once everyone is living in an Islamic state, a caliphate governed by sharia law. Hence “the martyrdom operations against the enemy” and the promise of paradise for those who carry them out.

Provided that Osama is not the martyre?

Anarchists have always believed in the antithesis of a Muslim state. They want a world without rule. Their first great theoretician, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, wanted to abolish centralised government altogether. This, though, would not bring the chaos with which the word anarchy is often considered synonymous. On the contrary, a sort of harmonious order would ensue, the state being replaced by a system of autonomous groups and communities, glued together by contract and mutual interest in place of laws. Justice, argued this essentially non-violent man, was the “central star” governing society.

Though Proudhon is remembered for the dictum, “Property is theft!” he actually believed that a man had the right to possess a house, some land and the tools to work it. This was too much for Mikhail Bakunin, a revolutionary nationalist turned anarchist who believed in collective ownership of the means of production. He believed, too, that “the passion for destruction is also a creative urge,” which was not a description of the regenerative workings of capitalism but a call to the barricades. Regeneration, however, was very much an anarchist theme, just as it is a jihadist one. As one of anarchism's leading interpreters, George Woodcock, has put it, “It is through the wrecks of empires and faiths that the anarchists have always seen the glittering towers of their free world arising.”

What prompts the leap from idealistic thought to violent action is largely a matter for conjecture. Every religion and almost every philosophy has drawn adherents ready to shed blood, their own included, and in the face of tyranny, poverty and exploitation, a willingness to resort to force is not hard to understand. Both anarchism and jihadism, though, have incorporated bloodshed into their ideologies, or at least some of their zealots have. And both have been ready to justify the killing not just of soldiers, policemen and other agents of the state, but also of civilians.

The heads roll
For anarchists, the crucial theory was that developed in Italy, where in 1876 Errico Malatesta put it thus: “The insurrectionary deed, destined to affirm socialist principles by acts, is the most efficacious means of propaganda.” This theory of “propaganda by deed” was cheerfully promoted by another great anarchist thinker, Peter Kropotkin, a Russian prince who became the toast of radical-chic circles in Europe and America. Whether the theory truly tipped non-violent musers into killers, or whether it merely gave a pretext to psychopaths, simpletons and romantics to commit murders, is unclear. The murders, however, are not in doubt. In deadly sequence, anarchists claimed the lives of President Sadi Carnot of France (1894), Antonio Cánovas del Castillo, the prime minister of Spain (1897), Empress Elizabeth of Austria (1898), King Umberto of Italy (1900), President William McKinley of the United States (1901) and José Canalejas y Méndez, another Spanish prime minister (1912).

By the way, a wonderfully comic novel called the twelve fingers is about an anarchist at the beginning of the 20th Century who manages to fumble every major historical act he gets involved in.

Such assassinations, it may be argued, were less similar to al-Qaeda's than to those of the Narodniki, the members of the Russian Party of the People's Will, who believed in “destroying the most powerful person in government” to undermine its prestige and arouse the revolutionary spirit. This they had undoubtedly done in 1881 by murdering Tsar Alexander II, even though he had been a reformer and, indeed, a liberator of the serfs. In truth, the practice of assassination is as old as the hills, though it got its name only in the 11th-13th centuries when it was followed by the Nizari Ismailiyun, a Shia sect that considered the murder of its enemies—conducted under the influence of hashish (hence assassin)—to be a religious duty.

Mr bin Laden would surely delight in some dramatic assassinations today. Presidents and prime ministers, however, do not nowadays sit reading the newspaper on the terraces of hotels where out-of-work Italian printers wander round with revolvers in their pockets, as Cánovas did, or walk the streets of Madrid unprotected while looking into bookshop windows, as Canalejas did. So Mr bin Laden must content himself with the assertion that on September 11th, “God Almighty hit the United States at its most vulnerable spot. He destroyed its greatest buildings...It was filled with terror from its north to its south and from its east to its west.”

But Osama is still a prick.

The anarchists, too, were happy to resort to more indiscriminate acts of terror. “A pound of dynamite is worth a bushel of bullets,” said August Spies, the editor of an anarchist newspaper in Chicago, in 1886. His readers evidently agreed. A bomb thrown soon afterwards was to kill seven policemen breaking up a strikers' gathering in the city's Haymarket Square.

France, too, had its dynamitards. One of their bombs blew up the Restaurant Véry in Paris in 1892. Another, some months later, which was destined for a mining company's offices, killed six policemen and set off a flurry of wild rumours: acid had been placed in the city's water supply, it was said, churches had been mined and anarchists lurked round every corner. A year later a young anarchist, unable to earn enough to feed himself, his lover and his daughter, decided to take his own life—and at the same time make a protest. Ready to bomb but unwilling to kill, he packed some nails and a small charge of explosive into a saucepan and lobbed it from the public gallery into the Chamber of Deputies. Though it caused no deaths, he was executed—and then avenged with another bomb, this one in the Terminus café at the Gare St-Lazare which killed one customer and injured 19. The perpetrator of this outrage, designed to “waken the masses”, regretted only that it had not claimed more victims. A popular street song boasted:

It will come, it will come,
Every bourgeois will have his bomb.

And many were inclined to agree. Four more bombs went off in Paris in the next two months.

Other countries were hardly more peaceful. A bomb was lobbed into a monarchist parade in Florence in 1878, another into a crowd in Pisa two days later. In 1893, two bombs were thrown into the Teatro Liceo in Barcelona, killing 22 opera-goers on the first night of the season. A year later a French anarchist blew himself up by accident in Greenwich Park in London, presumably on his way to the observatory there. Two years later, at least six people taking part in a religious procession in Barcelona were blown to bits by an anarchist bomb. Countless attempts were also made on the lives of bigger names, such as King Alfonso XII of Spain (1878), Kaiser Wilhelm I of Germany (May and June 1878), Andrew Carnegie's business partner, Henry Clay Frick (Pittsburgh, 1892), a Serbian minister (Paris, 1893) and King Alfonso XIII and his English bride (Madrid, on their wedding day, 1906). In this last incident alone 20 bystanders died.

Then, as now, alarm and consternation broke out. Admittedly, violent attacks on prominent figures were quite frequent: one American president had been assassinated in 1865 (Lincoln) and another in 1881 (Garfield), and seven attempts were made on Queen Victoria's life before her reign ended in 1901, none of them by anarchists. Even so, governments could hardly do nothing. The response of some was repression and retribution, which often provoked further terrorist violence. Germany arrested 500 people after the second attack on the kaiser, many for “approving” of the attempts on his life. Spain was particularly prone to round up the usual suspects and torture them, though it also passed new laws. After the Liceo bombing, it brought in courts-martial for all crimes committed with explosives, and only military officers were allowed to be present during the trial of the supposed bombers.

France, too, resorted to unusual measures. After the bombing of the French Chamber of Deputies, 2,000 warrants were issued, anarchist clubs and cafés were raided, papers were closed down and August Vaillant, the bomber, was tried, found guilty and sentenced to death in a day. An apologist who declared that not a single man in France would grieve for the president if he confirmed the sentence (as he did), and then was assassinated (as he was), was jailed for two years for incitement to murder. The French parliament made it a crime not just to incite sedition but also to justify it. Criminal “associations of malefactors” were defined by intent rather than by action, and all acts of anarchist propaganda were banned.

Similarly, in Britain soon after last month's bombings, the prime minister, Tony Blair, announced that “condoning or glorifying terrorism” anywhere, not just in the United Kingdom, would become a crime. Places of worship used as centres for “fomenting extremism” are to be closed down. Measures will be taken to deport foreigners “fostering hatred, advocating violence to further a person's beliefs, or justifying or validating such violence.” Naturalised Britons engaged in “extremism” will be stripped of their citizenship.

Jihadists, of course, cross borders, and many are presumed to be indoctrinated by foreigners, even if they commit their deeds at home. So it was too with the anarchists, even though they often plotted and acted alone. Many of the ideas came from Russia. Besides Bakunin, Russia also produced Kropotkin, “an uncompromising apostle of the necessity of violence”, according to Barbara Tuchman in “The Proud Tower”.

Italy, by contrast, produced many of the assassins: for example, those who killed Carnot, Cánovas, Empress Elizabeth and King Umberto. It also exported utopians who founded anarchist settlements like the Cecilia colony in Brazil. Germany, too, had its share of fanatics, including Johann Most, the editor of an incendiary New York newspaper, Freiheit, and many of the Jewish anarchists who congregated in London's East End. France also sent anarchos abroad: a prominent theorist, Elisée Reclus, taught in Brussels. The man who shot McKinley was the child of Polish immigrants to America. And Switzerland, like England, played host to exiles who came and went with considerable freedom.

No wonder, then, that anti-foreigner feeling ran high in many places. In the United States, President Theodore Roosevelt asked Congress to exclude anyone who believed in “anarchistic principles” and, by treaty, to make the advocacy of killing an offence against international law. Congress duly obliged with an act that kept out anyone “teaching disbelief in or opposition to all organised government”.

By then an international conference had been held (in 1898) at the behest of Italy to seek help in fighting anarchism. The Italians did not get all they wanted: Belgium, Britain and Switzerland refused to abandon the right of asylum or to extradite suspected anarchists. But in 1893, just after the Liceo bombing, Britain had reluctantly banned open meetings of anarchists after the Liberal home secretary, H.H. Asquith, had come under attack for allowing an anarchist meeting to commemorate the Chicago Haymarket martyrs.

The vast majority of anarchists, like the vast majority of Islamists, were not violent, and some of those who once believed in bloodshed, notably Kropotkin, were to turn against it in time. But those who relished indiscriminate violence used an argument with striking similarities to that used by Mr bin Laden. Thus Emile Henry, who had left the bomb in the café at the Gare St-Lazare, was to justify his act by saying that those in the café were all “satisfied with the established order, all the accomplices and employees of Property and the State...There are no innocent bourgeois.” For his part, Mr bin Laden, in his “Letter to America” of November 2002, justifies the “aggression against civilians for crimes they did not commit” with a slightly more sophisticated variant. They deserved to die, he said, because, as American citizens, they had chosen “their government by way of their own free will, a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies.”

Such sentiments recall the characters of Conrad's “The Secret Agent” and Fyodor Dostoevsky's “Devils”. Inspired by 19th-century anarchist intellectuals and events, they describe men of almost autistic lack of empathy and contorted moral sense. For Conrad's protagonist, nicknamed the Professor, the world's morality was artificial, corrupt and blasphemous. The way of even the most justifiable revolutions is prepared by personal impulses disguised into creeds. The Professor's indignation found in itself a final cause that absolved him from the sin of turning to destruction as the agent of his ambition. To destroy public faith in legality was the imperfect formula of his pedantic fanaticism; but the subconscious conviction that the framework of an established social order cannot be effectually shattered except by some form of collective or individual violence was precise and correct. He was a moral agent—that was settled in his mind. By exercising his agency with ruthless defiance he procured for himself the appearances of power and personal prestige. That was undeniable to his vengeful bitterness. It pacified its unrest; and in their own way the most ardent of revolutionaries are perhaps doing no more but seeking for peace in common with the rest of mankind—the peace of soothed vanity, of satisfied appetites, or perhaps of appeased conscience.

Anarchists like the Professor, a quiet man who went round with a bomb in his pocket that he could detonate with the squeeze of a rubber ball should he be arrested, were difficult to detect and impossible to deter. So why did their wave of terror pass? Not, it seems, because of the measures taken to deter them. The main reason, rather, was that the world became consumed with the first world war, the Russian revolution, the fight against fascism and the struggles against colonialism. Another was that, after a while, the more rational anarchists realised that terrorism seldom achieves the ends desired of it—as the IRA has recently acknowledged.

But in truth the wave did not entirely pass; it merely changed. The anarchist terrorists of 1880-1910 were replaced by other terrorists—Fenians, Serb nationalists (one killed the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and thus sparked the first world war), Bolsheviks, Dashnaks (revolutionary Armenians), Poles, Macedonians, Hindu nationalists (among them the killers of Mahatma Gandhi), fascists, Zionists, Maoists, Guevarists, Black Panthers, Red Brigades, Red Army Fractions, Palestinians and even al-Qaeda's jihadists. Few of these shared the anarchists' explicit aims; all borrowed at least some of their tactics and ideas.

And the world went on. It probably would even if yesterday's dynamitards become today's plutoniumards. But terrorism is unlikely to be expunged. As long as there are men like Conrad's Professor, there will be causes to excite them, and therefore deeds to terrify their fellow citizens.

Sources:

“Anarchism”, by George Woodcock, Pelican Books, 1962.

“The Anarchists”, by James Joll, Eyre & Spottiswoode, 1964.

“The Proud Tower”, by Barbara W. Tuchman, Macmillan, 1962.

“How Russia Shaped the Modern World”, by Steven G. Marks, Princeton University Press, 2003.

“East End Jewish Radicals 1875-1914”, by William J. Fishman, Five Leaves Publications, 2004.

“Violent London: 2,000 Years of Riots, Rebels and Revolts”, by Clive Bloom, Sidgwick & Jackson, 2003.
 
Agree.

(btw.: I always thought anarchism ia a great idea but will never work because there're to many assholes, egoists and fanatics in this world)
 
I fail to see how anything is really a great idea if it results in nothing positive and gets a lot of people killed.
 
i always thought liberalism is a sophistacted way to be an anarchist, since they always put no bounderies between what is good and bad. for instance- freedom of speech is great, but the criticism of the press and the internet can opress almost any idea.

or, as liberals they stray away from religion or races, because they are too conservative, hence they destroy the history of the land/country in the name of freedom, thus, no one will see a reason to preserve the country itself.

i wouldnt say anrachists, because anarachists always go well with violance, but definitly chaotic in my opinion, and lacking of some important virtues.
 
Uh, not really, no. Liberals believe in a real government and personal possesions beyond a house and things to maintain it, not to mention freedom of religion, all of which Proudhoun would have hated, not to mention that idiot Bakunin.
 
not contradicting thier beliefs just thier applications. liberal countries have more problems with races than a conservative one, because thier liberal manner allow any race to exist, and some races are more "populative" than others, even from the race of the original country.
 
Aegis, did you want to say that the stronger growth of one (non native) race is a problem for the native race of a county? And why "allow any race to exist"? What does that have to do with liberals?
I get the point of your argument, but actually I don't like it and hope that I misunderstood your post due to my not-so-perfect English.
 
I find it hard to agree with almost anything proposed in that article, and especially with your conjectures that the Jihadists are to suffer the same fate the Anarchists have…nor do I find it justifiable to draw any parallels between the two, when such a cardinal difference exists.

Jihad (ǧihād جهاد) is an Islamic term, from the Arabic root ǧhd ("to exert utmost effort, to strive, struggle"), which connotes a wide range of meanings: anything from an inward spiritual struggle to attain perfect faith to a political or military struggle to further the Islamic cause. The term is frequently mistranslated to mean "holy war" in English, although Jihad can apply to warfare. Mainstream Muslims consider Jihad to be the most misunderstood aspect of their religion by non-Muslims. The meaning of "Islamic cause" is of course open to interpretation. The Islamic religious legitimacy of the goals or methods of various Islamist movements who adopt the terminology of Jihad is often brought into question, usually by moderate and liberal Muslims.
A person who engages in any form of Jihad is called a "mujahid", meaning "striver" or "struggler", though this Islamic term is most often used to mean a person who engages in fighting. It is not limited to fighting or warfare however, a Muslim struggling to memorize the Quran is a mujahid, for example. The neologism jihadist is sometimes used to describe militant Islamic groups, including but not restricted to Islamist terrorism (c. f. Jihadist organizations and Rules of war in Islam).
Jihad is a complicated concept in Islamic doctrine. The Arabic word "Jihad" means "to struggle" or "to strive." In as much as Jihad is a struggle, it is a struggle against all that is perceived as evil in the cause of that which is perceived as good, a cosmic and epic struggle spanning time and all dimensions of human thought and action, and transcending the physical universe. Muslims often do not refer merely to "Jihad" but to Jihad fi Sabilillah (Jihad in the Cause of Allah).

Muslims generally classify Jihad into two forms, Jihad Al-Akbar, the Greater Jihad, is said to be the struggle against ones soul (nafs), while Jihad Al-Asgar, the lesser Jihad, is external and is in reference to physical effort, ie. fighting. Traditional Muslim scholars explained there are five kinds of Jihad fi Sabilillah (Jihad in the Cause of Allah): Jihad of the heart/soul ( Jihad bin Nafs/Qalb) , Jihad by the tongue (Jihad bil Lisan), Jihad by the pen/knowledge (Jihad bil Qalam/Ilm), Jihad by the hand (Jihad bil Yad), and Jihad by the sword (Jihad bis saif). [1] "Jihad of the heart/soul" is an inner struggle of good against evil in the mind, through concepts such as tawhid. Jihad by the tongue is a struggle of good against evil waged by writing and speech, such as in the form of dawah (proslytizing), khutbahs (sermons), and political or military propaganda. Jihad by the pen and knowledge is a struggle for good against evil through scholarly study of Islam, ijtihad (legal reasoning), and through sciences (such as military and medical sciences). Jihad by the hand refers to a struggle of good against evil waged by actions or with one's wealth, such as going on the Hajj pilgrimage (seen as the best Jihad for women), taking care of elderly parents, providing funding for Jihad, political activity for furthering Islam as a political movement, stopping evil by force, or espionage. Jihad by the sword refers to Qital fi Sabilillah (armed fighting in the way of Allah, meaning holy war).

In terms of eschatology, Islam exalts Jihad as the greatest deed, in its canonical literature. The Qur'an distinguishes between "those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and persons" and "those who sit and receieve no hurt," exalting the former above the latter [Qur'an 4:95]. According to various canonical hadith, there is no deed equal to Jihad in reward during the afterlife [Bukhari. Volume 4, Hadith 44].
It is often said that Muslims believe that those who are martyred during Jihad recieve 70 virgins, or houris, in heaven. This is not exactly true; in reality, the belief is that all who enter heaven recieve the 70 houris, not just martyrs. However, as said above, Muslims do believe that martyrs recieve a higher (but unspecified) reward than civilians.

Anarchism is a political view derived from the Greek αναρχία ("without archons (rulers)"). Thus "anarchism," in its most general meaning, is opposing to rulers. All forms of anarchism oppose the existence of a State and favor what they perceive to be voluntary relationships between individuals.
Anarchism comprises various political philosophies and social movements that advocate the elimination of the State, and authoritarian social and economic relationships. In the place of centralized political and economic structures these movements favor social relations based upon voluntary interaction. These philosophies use anarchy to mean a society based on voluntary interaction of free individuals. Philosophical anarchist thought does not advocate chaos or anomie — it refers to "anarchy" as a manner of human relations that is intentionally established and maintained.
While anarchism is primarily viewed as a negative - opposition to compulsory authority - anarchism is also a positive vision of how a stateless and non-authoritarian society would work. There is considerable variation among the anarchist political philosophies. Opinions differ in various areas, such as whether violence should be employed to foster anarchism, what type of economic system should exist, whether social hierarchy or unequal wealth distribution is opposed, questions on the environment and industrialism, and anarchists role in various movements. Also, throughout history various anarchists of particular schools of anarchism have claimed that other particular schools, to which they do not subscribe, are not forms of anarchism.

Welsh said:
A good look at terrorism at the end of the nineteenth and early 20th century shows remarkable similarities- especially the motive- to create a 'better' world through violent despotism.

Since when was that the motive behind contemporary terrorism? And be careful, very careful of using such a big word as despotism. Many malicious connotations arise from it...

Welsh said:
Or are we stuck with these individuals, who pursue violence in the name of some larger-than-life goal, but really only because of their own ego and vanity?
What a silly thing to wonder at. You must be religious to have such a standpoint - a Christian one I might add. (Just don't tell me you're a protestant, or their derivative) I see nothing wrong in being egoistic and selfish, as long as you're not a hypocrite.

People are entitled to their beliefs, entitled to the right of dying for them. Show some credit to that, and while you're at it ask your self which is worse: dying out of one's belief, or out of lack of one's belief?
I rest - for now.
 
Interesting article, but, a few comments:

- I'm pretty sure the 1880-1890 death toll is exxagerated by the hundreds

- "propaganda by the deed" does not always mean violence

- McKinley was killed by an anti-social madman who knew nothing about anarchism but somehow popped the term out of his mouth after capture, much to the dismay and embarrassment of anarchists everywhere.

- I'm not going to claim that anarchists haven't been terrorists in the past, and I appreciate the fact that the author makes a point to distance anarchist theory from the actions of some anarchists, however I can't help but read with skepticism. I can assume she doesn't know much about McKinley's assassination, but she mentions the Haymarket Riot as an anarchist bombing. It's pretty common knowledge among historians that there was never any proof an anarchist threw the bomb at Haymarket, and that the anarchists arrested at the riot were tried essentially for being anarchists and sentenced to death. The police killed as many people at the riot as the bomb did.

Not saying she's lying, just saying some of what she's saying is questionable.
 
Leon Czolgosz may have been crazy but he was as devout an Anarchist as anybody in history.

And no, the deathtoll is not exaggerated, a lot of people died in horrible, pointless bombings.

Propoganda by the deed pretty often means violence, and you know it means violence in this contect.

V might have been cool, but Anarchism is still a rabidly violent, inherintly extreme political belief.
 
John Uskglass said:
Leon Czolgosz may have been crazy but he was as devout an Anarchist as anybody in history.

Then why do the majority of Anarchists scoff at the name?

And no, the deathtoll is not exaggerated, a lot of people died in horrible, pointless bombings.

Source, reference point? Or did you hop in your magical time machine and count the bodies?

Propoganda by the deed pretty often means violence, and you know it means violence in this context.

Eh. I don't agree with that, really.

V might have been cool, but Anarchism is still a rabidly violent, inherintly extreme political belief.

Thank you Mr. Junior Fascist 2005. Hold on, let me go find your tiara.
 
Then why do the majority of Anarchists scoff at the name?
Because the vast majority of Anarchists are idiots?

Do you think that followers of Le Pen want to be associated with Pétain? Or The Northern Leauge with Il Duce? Does that stop them from being fascists?

Source, reference point?
Just look at the goddamn article, or read an article about Terrorism. Who do you think invented modern terrorism, anyway? It certainly was not the fundementalists or the Communists.

Or did you hop in your magical time machine and count the bodies?
Again, go get it yourself. A lot of innocent people died in random bombings, and a lot of good Monarchs died. I mean for FUCK'S SAKE, just look at Alexander II: one of the only reforming Tsars in history, killed by an anarchist MORON.

Look, there WHERE some good Anarchists, but it was still a violent ideology and history has proven that basically EVERY economic system that is not somehow based upon capitalism fail in every way it is possible to fail in the long run. It's a dead end.



Eh. I don't agree with that, really.
Perhaps, then, you can explain to me why only violent Anarchists, Fascists and Fundementalists seem to live by this dictum?

Thank you Mr. Junior Fascist 2005. Hold on, let me go find your tiara.
Hey, do us a favor, go get shot breaking into a Starbucks in another destruvtive, meaningless circle jerk.
 
John Uskglass said:
Then why do the majority of Anarchists scoff at the name?
Because the vast majority of Anarchists are idiots?

Do you think that followers of Le Pen want to be associated with Pétain? Or The Northern Leauge with Il Duce? Does that stop them from being fascists?

Of course not. But it's a historical fact that he was not an Anarchist.

Source, reference point?
Just look at the goddamn article, or read an article about Terrorism. Who do you think invented modern terrorism, anyway? It certainly was not the fundementalists or the Communists.

You believe everything you read on the internet as a complete and unquestionable fact?

Or did you hop in your magical time machine and count the bodies?
Again, go get it yourself. A lot of innocent people died in random bombings, and a lot of good Monarchs died. I mean for FUCK'S SAKE, just look at Alexander II: one of the only reforming Tsars in history, killed by an anarchist MORON.

Okay, a LOT of people died, sure, but that doens't mean those numbers weren't exaggerated.


Perhaps, then, you can explain to me why only violent Anarchists, Fascists and Fundementalists seem to live by this dictum?

You don't know many anarchists, if any, do you? It's just a phrase. It refers to violence at times, sure, but there are tens of thousands of anarchists that don't subscribe to running around and commiting random acts of violence..

Anyone who thinks all anarchists are dweebs with ski-masks and bombs in their backpacks is an idiot.

Thank you Mr. Junior Fascist 2005. Hold on, let me go find your tiara.
Hey, do us a favor, go get shot breaking into a Starbucks in another destruvtive, meaningless circle jerk.

Ouch.
 
Max Demian said:
I find it hard to agree with almost anything proposed in that article, and especially with your conjectures that the Jihadists are to suffer the same fate the Anarchists have…nor do I find it justifiable to draw any parallels between the two, when such a cardinal difference exists.
That's because you are, for some reason, assuming that they are comparing the anarchist and jihadist ideology. They are not, they are comparing the actions and consequences of both anarchists during the 19th and jihadists during the 20th/21st century. And when looking at the actions and consequences, you see a lot of similarities, like the chaos and fear, and the governmental reactions.
[qutoe="Max Demian"]
Welsh said:
A good look at terrorism at the end of the nineteenth and early 20th century shows remarkable similarities- especially the motive- to create a 'better' world through violent despotism.

Since when was that the motive behind contemporary terrorism?
Since they want to destroy the western civilization and replace it with an Islamic one.
And be careful, very careful of using such a big word as despotism. Many malicious connotations arise from it...
...
They were/are terrorists bombing and killing people to destroy governments. The Jihadists want to create an Islamic despotism, the anarchists....perhaps a despotism of the people, or in many cases 'the first step': a state ruled by an anarchist.

Max Demian said:
What a silly thing to wonder at. You must be religious to have such a standpoint - a Christian one I might add. (Just don't tell me you're a protestant, or their derivative) I see nothing wrong in being egoistic and selfish, as long as you're not a hypocrite.
Ah, brilliant, an argumentum ad hominem. That'll do it.
'You must be religious!'
Right, might I add I agree with him and am not religious at all?
And besides that, why would that being religious do anything about the validity of his statements?


People are entitled to their beliefs, entitled to the right of dying for them. Show some credit to that, and while you're at it ask your self which is worse: dying out of one's belief, or out of lack of one's belief?
I rest - for now.
I'd prefer not dying at all, to be honest.
Look, these people, the ringleaders at least, probably do this out of a sense of needing to feel important. Egoism, vanity, whatever, but I sincerely doubt any of the ringleaders ever did this just for their beliefs.
Hell, look at sects, they have many, many followers, but do you think that the sect leaders do this out of belief instead of vanity? Yes, the analogy is partially false, but both sectists and jihadists claim to do this because they believe in something. The difference being that the sectists had to invent their own faith, the jihadists already had one.
 
Malkavian said:
I'm not going to claim that anarchists haven't been terrorists in the past, and I appreciate the fact that the author makes a point to distance anarchist theory from the actions of some anarchists

Right, remarkeably similar to how muslim "theory" should be split from the actions of some anarchists. And just how people were incapable of doing so back then, people are now incapable again of splitting Islam from Islamism. Which leads to a bigger problem, since there're quite a lot of muslims or, as the USA calls them, "potential terrorists"

Sander said:
a state ruled by an anarchist.

Eheheheeh. Sander, fer God's sake, take a close look at that sentence.

Max Demian said:
People are entitled to their beliefs, entitled to the right of dying for them.

Everyone is entitled to die for their beliefs.

NO ONE is "entitled" to kill for his her belief. And terrorism, like it or not, is primarily about killing, not dying.

Sander said:
Yes, the analogy is partially false, but both sectists and jihadists claim to do this because they believe in something. The difference being that the sectists had to invent their own faith, the jihadists already had one.

Wrong, Sander.

Jihadists did not "already have one". Jihadism, an odd term, pretty much equates Islamism AKA "Fundamentalist Islam" AKA "Political Islam". Islamism was not an existing religious structure, rather Said Al Qutb took the Islam and twisted it to his own design. Political Islam has about as much to do with Islam as the KKK did with Christianity. It *is*, in fact, an invented sect

And the term "fundamentalist islam" is really stupid, since they're not grabbing back to actual fundaments of islam, rather they're inventing new fundaments. The term is very confusing. And evil.
 
Jihadists did not "already have one". Jihadism, an odd term, pretty much equates Islamism AKA "Fundamentalist Islam" AKA "Political Islam". Islamism was not an existing religious structure, rather Said Al Qutb took the Islam and twisted it to his own design. Political Islam has about as much to do with Islam as the KKK did with Christianity. It *is*, in fact, an invented sect
I'd say Islamofascism; that is, the mix of political Islam with equal parts Soviet and Nazi/Fascist with Anarchist-style terrorism is new. Political Islam is as old as the Caliphate.

Of course not. But it's a historical fact that he was not an Anarchist.
No, actually, it's not, he was an Anarchist. He was a follower of Emma Goldman, and Goldman was detained for a while and put on trail because her fucked up ideology lead to the assasination of the president.

You believe everything you read on the internet as a complete and unquestionable fact?
Does everything your friends say about Anarchism become gospel?

Okay, a LOT of people died, sure, but that doens't mean those numbers weren't exaggerated.
I did'nt even mention the Kronsdant rebellion. Hell, if Alexander II had lived, millions of Russians might be alive today.

You don't know many anarchists, if any, do you? It's just a phrase. It refers to violence at times, sure, but there are tens of thousands of anarchists that don't subscribe to running around and commiting random acts of violence..
I know one or two anarchists (oddly enough, one is in my Poli-Sci class). Both douches. And I've read more about Anarchism then they have I am willing to bet.

Anyone who thinks all anarchists are dweebs with ski-masks and bombs in their backpacks is an idiot.

"Comrades," began Gregory, in a low but penetrating voice, "it is not necessary for me to tell you what is my policy, for it is your
policy also. Our belief has been slandered, it has been disfigured,
it has been utterly confused and concealed, but it has never been
altered. Those who talk about anarchism and its dangers go everywhere and anywhere to get their information, except to us,
except to the fountain head. They learn about anarchists from sixpenny novels; they learn about anarchists from tradesmen's
newspapers; they learn about anarchists from Ally Sloper's
Half-Holiday and the Sporting Times. They never learn about
anarchists from anarchists. We have no chance of denying the
mountainous slanders which are heaped upon our heads from one end of Europe to another. The man who has always heard that we are walking plagues has never heard our reply. I know that he will not hear it tonight, though my passion were to rend the roof. For it is deep, deep under the earth that the persecuted are permitted to
assemble, as the Christians assembled in the Catacombs. But if, by
some incredible accident, there were here tonight a man who all his
life had thus immensely misunderstood us, I would put this question to him: 'When those Christians met in those Catacombs, what sort of moral reputation had they in the streets above? What tales were told of their atrocities by one educated Roman to another? Suppose' (I would say to him), 'suppose that we are only repeating that still mysterious paradox of history. Suppose we seem as shocking as the Christians because we are really as harmless as the Christians. Suppose we seem as mad as the Christians because we are really as meek."'

The applause that had greeted the opening sentences had been
gradually growing fainter, and at the last word it stopped
suddenly. In the abrupt silence, the man with the velvet jacket
said, in a high, squeaky voice--

"I'm not meek!"

"Comrade Witherspoon tells us," resumed Gregory, "that he is not
meek. Ah, how little he knows himself! His words are, indeed, extravagant; his appearance is ferocious, and even (to an ordinary
taste) unattractive. But only the eye of a friendship as deep and
delicate as mine can perceive the deep foundation of solid meekness which lies at the base of him, too deep even for himself to see. I repeat, we are the true early Christians, only that we come too late. We are simple, as they revere simple--look at Comrade Witherspoon. We are modest, as they were modest--look at me. We are merciful--"

"No, no!" called out Mr. Witherspoon with the velvet jacket.

"I say we are merciful," repeated Gregory furiously, "as the early Christians were merciful. Yet this did not prevent their being accused of eating human flesh. We do not eat human flesh--"

"Shame!" cried Witherspoon. "Why not?"

"Comrade Witherspoon," said Gregory, with a feverish gaiety, "is
anxious to know why nobody eats him (laughter). In our society, at
any rate, which loves him sincerely, which is founded upon love--"

"No, no!" said Witherspoon, "down with love."
 
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