Kansas brings on the Evolution debate- again

welsh

Junkmaster
Kansas seems to be in love with this issue.

Most folks from Kansas that I know seem embarrassed by this, but alas, there is no stopping the religious right.

Darwin's theory evolves into culture war By Lisa Anderson Tribune national correspondent
Sun May 22, 9:40 AM ET

Eighty years after the Scopes "Monkey Trial," the battle between those who support the validity of biological evolution and those who oppose it rages on in Kansas--and in more than a dozen other states around the country.

The Scopes trial was about a school teacher that got thrown in jail for teaching evolution. It wasn't about whether evolution was right or whether evolution was only what could be taught.

The controversy may appear to be simply about the teaching of science in the classroom. But it represents a far more complex, widespread clash of politics, religion, science and culture that transcends the borders of conservative, so-called red states and their more liberal blue counterparts.

Frankly, I think this red vs blue thing should be done in a naval battle... oh that's another thread.

"This controversy is going to happen everywhere. It's going to happen in all 50 states. This controversy is not going away," said Jeff Tamblyn, 52, an owner of Merriam, Kan.-based Origin Films, which is making a feature film about the current fight over whether to introduce a more critical approach to evolution in Kansas' school science standards.

This is what I don't get. A more critical approach to a scientific theory- ok. I can deal with that. But a what are they challenging evolution with? Is is a scientific theory or wishful thinking?

I mean it's a science class, right? Isn't science supposed to be...well.... scientific?

And no, church of scientology or Christian scientists doesn't count for scientific thinking.

So far in 2005, the issue of evolution has sparked at least 21 instances of controversy on the local and/or state level in at least 18 states, according to the National Center for Science Education, an Oakland-based non-profit organization that defends the teaching of evolution in public schools. Although such controversies have occurred regularly over the years, some attribute the recent wave to the success of conservatives in 2004 elections.

Ok, but lets say your Mom wants you to learn creationism and thinks evilution is a sin- what about that? Does the school have the right to indoctrinate you into the ways of SATAN!!!!

At the national level, one attempt to diminish the prominence of evolution in public school curricula and introduce alternative views came in the form of a proposed amendment to the No Child Left Behind Act. Sponsored by Sen. Rick Santorum (news, bio, voting record) (R-Pa.), the amendment suggested that evolution is in question among scientists and recommended that a "full range of scientific views" be taught. But it was cut from the bill.

This cut from the bill was called "Only Idiots left behind."

Seeking to explain the passion that the issue often ignites, Tamblyn said: "Partly, it's the mixture of religion and politics. If that doesn't get you going, what does?"

Ok, religion and politics. Fine, I am willing to say that we can even discuss those things in school. We should. Religion and politics are part of the fabric of society. But in science?

Indeed, the theory of evolution, which some opponents say is consonant with atheism because it provides no role for the divine, has been provoking controversy since 1859, when Charles Darwin published "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection."

And if the contentious nature of the Kansas State Board of Education's recent public hearings here on evolution is any indication, the issue remains as explosive today as it was in Tennessee 80 years ago.

And thus the level of scientific development in the US?

Root of the controversy

In the summer of 1925, Clarence Darrow entered a Dayton, Tenn., courtroom to defend biology teacher John Scopes against charges of teaching Darwin's theory of evolution after it had been banned by the state. The highly publicized trial was the basis of the 1955 Broadway play "Inherit the Wind" and the 1960 film of the same title.

Then as now, the controversy over evolution revolved around two Darwinian theories that contradict the biblical version of creation: Darwin's assertion that all life, including humans and monkeys, descended from common ancestors and that it is all the result of natural selection and random mutation. While fundamentalists may recoil from those concepts, many religious authorities, including those in the Roman Catholic Church, hold that belief in God and evolution do not conflict.

As there was in 1999, when Kansas de-emphasized evolution in its school science standards--a move reversed by a more moderate board in 2001-- there has been snickering by critics over the state's "backwardness" and head-shaking over the idea that the validity of evolution, one of the foundations of modern science, is in question.

That has prompted many references to the famous question posed in an 1896 editorial by William Allen White, editor of Kansas' Emporia Gazette. Listing examples of what he deplored as the backwardness of the state, he wrote: "What's the matter with Kansas?"

But if Kansas is "backward," it's not alone.

Proving again that stupidy is in fact an infectious disease.

Year to date, at least 13 states have entertained legislation requiring a more critical approach to evolution in the classroom and/or allowing discussion of alternative explanations of the origins of humans, including the supernatural.

The most recent addition is New York, a true "blue" state, where an Assembly bill was introduced May 3 requiring schools to teach both evolution and intelligent design.

Intelligent design, which some critics consider an attempt to get around the Supreme Court's ban on teaching overtly religious creationism, credits an unnamed intelligence or designer for aspects of nature's complexity still unexplained by science.

Duh! Everyone knows that humans come from a genetic ooze that dripped off the Great Old Ones just before Great Cthulhu entered his great slumber. Worry not children, the Stars will soon be right!

Whether any of this proposed legislation concerning evolution passes, it is evident that many Americans share the thinking behind it, according to poll after poll, including a recent Tribune/WGN-TV poll.

Partly in response to concerns expressed by such conservative Christian groups as the Illinois Family Institute, the Illinois State Board of Education eliminated the term "evolution" from its science standards in 1997 and substituted the phrase "change over time." However, the word "evolution" does appear in the board's Science Performance Descriptors, a list of grade-specific material over which students must demonstrate mastery.

Again, stupidy- instead of one BIG word like evolution- which is difficult to spell, we replace it with a concept like "change over time."

The Tribune/WGN-TV poll of 1,200 Illinois registered voters, conducted May 5-10, found that 58 percent favor teaching Darwin's theory but 57 percent also are open to teaching views opposed to it. In fact, 57 percent said they believe that both evolution and creationism should be included in school curricula. The poll by Mt. Prospect, Ill.-based Market Shares Corp. has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

And 58 percent of Illinois voters polled said they believe teaching creationism does not violate the constitutional separation of church and state.

Scary.

Supreme Court prohibition.

But in 1987 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled to the contrary in Edwards vs. Aguillard. The court held that to teach creationism, or so-called creation science, in public schools implies a state endorsement of a religious view and thus violates the 1st Amendment's prohibition on government establishment of religion.

Nonetheless, the views on evolution expressed by Illinois voters mirror those of Americans overall, according to earlier polls by Gallup and others.

According to a November national Gallup poll, "only about a third of Americans believe that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is a scientific theory that has been well supported by the evidence, while just as many say that it is just one of many theories and has not been supported by the evidence." The rest said they didn't know.

A CBS News poll taken the same month found that two-thirds of Americans want creationism taught with evolution. It also indicated that 55 percent of Americans believe God created humans in their present form and only 13 percent think that humans evolved without divine guidance.

Kansans will learn this summer whether schoolchildren will study evolution alone or in conjunction with criticism of Darwin's theory. Schools are not bound to teach by standards set by the state board. However, teachers, already sometimes nervous about teaching evolution, know that board-recommended material may appear on state science assessment tests, said Steven Case, assistant director of the Center for Science Education at the University of Kansas and chairman of the state's Science Standards Writing Committee.

The majority of the 26-member committee recommended retaining current standards regarding evolution, while eight members disagreed and presented their own minority report, advocating not only a curriculum more critical of evolution but a redefinition of science that goes beyond explanations rooted in nature.

Should the board approve the more critical approach, as is considered likely given its conservative majority, it would open the door to alternative explanations for life on Earth that go beyond natural causes, including intelligent design.

That infuriates many scientists, the majority of whom solidly support Darwin's theory and deny there is any scientific controversy surrounding it. They point out that in science, a "theory" is not merely a guess but a tested concept based on long-term observation and evidence. The National Academy of Sciences, along with the rest of the national scientific community, refused to send witnesses to the Kansas hearings, claiming that the event was rigged against mainstream science and that its participation would confer the kind of scientific credibility that intelligent design seeks.

However, the reasoning behind its position may have seemed confusing, and even condescending, to some Kansans. Past arguments over evolution often have been cast as a culture clash between the Darwinist scientific elite and ordinary, less-educated citizens.

This conflict was neatly summed up by the headline at the top of a news release issued by the Discovery Institute at the close of the hearings: "Darwinists Snub Kansas, Refuse to Answer Questions about Scientific Problems with Evolutionary Theory." The Seattle-based Discovery Institute advocates criticism of Darwin's theory and supports scholarship on intelligent design.

To represent mainstream science at the hearings, the state recruited Topeka attorney Pedro Irigonegaray, a supporter of Darwin's theory, who cross-examined the nearly two dozen witnesses appearing on behalf of those advocating the revisions. His counterpart was John Calvert, an attorney and managing director of the Kansas-based Intelligent Design Network, a non-profit organization promoting intelligent design.

In September, what promises to be a test case on intelligent design will come to trial in Pennsylvania, where Dover-area schools last fall decided to require that students be made aware of intelligent design and of criticism of Darwin's theory. Parents have filed suit against the school board, arguing that intelligent design is not science but creationism in disguise.

Evolution critics cite science

Proponents of intelligent design assert that there is a scientific rationale to their criticism of evolution. One who testified at the Kansas hearings is Jonathan Wells. A molecular biologist, Wells also is a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.

"We can infer from evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than unguided natural processes," Wells said in a phone interview. "Among the latter would be random mutation and natural selection. They're factors, but not sufficient to give a full account.

"I think Darwinism is pseudoscience," he said.

Supporters of the theory of evolution say the same thing about intelligent design.

"Despite how they want to redefine it, science itself appeals only to natural explanations. It doesn't say there are no other explanations," said Harry McDonald, a retired biology teacher and president of Kansas Citizens for Science, a pro-evolution group formed during the fight over standards in 1999.

The Kansas Board of Education will take a preliminary vote in June and a final vote later this summer on revisions to the science standards. But given the 6-4 advantage of conservatives on the board, few believe the outcome is in doubt--although any revisions can be reversed if the composition of the board changes, as happened in 2001.

"I fear that there will be a lack of logic, that emotion is going to rule and, as a result, our science standards will be severely compromised," said Irigonegaray, slumping into a seat in Topeka's Memorial Hall after delivering a 108-minute argument on behalf of mainstream science on May 12, the last day of public hearings.

He paused, then added, "I warn America to be on the lookout for this problem because it's a national phenomenon, not just a Kansas problem."

- - -

Alternative theories to evolution

Since Charles Darwin published the theory of biological evolution in 1859, his assertions that humans share common ancestry with all life on the planet and that they evolved to their present form through natural selection and mutation have clashed with the beliefs of those who adhere to the Bible's story that God created the world and created Adam and Eve in his image.

Opponents of evolution have their own vocabulary list. Among the key terms are:

CREATIONISM--Advanced by religious conservatives in response to Darwin's theory, creationism holds that God alone created the world and all life in it as it is today. "Young Earth" creationists take the Bible's Book of Genesis literally and believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. "Old Earth" creationists do not take Genesis literally but dispute evolution. "Creation science" claims scientific evidence for the biblical version of creation.

INTELLIGENT DESIGN--Considered a successor to creationism, intelligent design became popular in the early 1990s after the U.S. Supreme Court banned the teaching of creationism in public schools in 1987. Framed in scientific language but devoid of biblical or theistic references, intelligent design posits that there are weaknesses in Darwin's theory and suggests that an unnamed intelligence must have designed complex aspects of nature still unexplained by science.

-- Lisa Anderson

And so America slips slowly back into the dark ages. Next up witch burnings.

Your thoughts?
 
I really can't quite comprehend this, having read parts of On the Origin of Species. I consider myself a deist, but I believe in evolution. I don't see how people find it hard to reconcile evolution with a belief in a divine entity? How about "Why, I believe evolution is a mechanism of how life evolved and the rules of the universe were ordained by another higher being"? Maybe the Big Bang was a manifestation of what we would call the "divine" (Material source for creation, as well as "spiritual" source)? EUREKA!

How can anyone possibly in their right minds believe in "creationism" to the extent that people seem to vehemently support it? I can't believe that there are THAT many evangelicals and fundamentalists in this country to push such a thing as law. I am a bit bowled over at the ignorance of humanity. Is it really that hard to see the Bible and other books as stuff cobbled together over a millenium ago?

I don't suppose you have ever read or seen "Inherit the Wind", welsh? It was/is a book and movie adaption of the Scopes trial.

We already have witch burnings. This time however the "witches" wear rainbow, like fashion, and seduce men from their role as seed injectors into something approximating Christopher Lowell.

The face of "evil", ladies and gentlemen.

112003christopherlowellcomp1us.jpg
 
Pretty soon we're going to have to make every school a private school that teaches only certain subjects... "Which school do you go to?" "Oh I go to the school of Art and the death of religion." Which school do you go to?" "Why the school of chaos and emotional rebirth of course."

Teach..Learn.....Choose! That's all a child needs.

America is going to end up producing children automatons that all look,act and think the same...

hmmm... I think I saw that in a war once....what was that war called?
 
This is actually pissing me off very much. How in hell can people be so fucking stupid? Fireblade, you make a great point; just because someone is religious doesn't mean that they should be a moron.
 
Actually Intelligent Design Theory is very much a deist theory. It appeals to all those wonderful individuals who instead of actually sitting down and thinking something over choose a way of living which is both "spiritual" but very modern at the same time.

Think modern medicine is too scary but still really want that burning in your chest to go away? Buy some magical bear shit at your holistic medice store!

Same way with deism and ID. People who think religion is weird, but find the concept of life being a completely purposeless process of evolution too scary have found their own little nest of ignorance.

The Amazing Hovercar of Madness hath Spoken!
 
Indeed, the theory of evolution, which some opponents say is consonant with atheism because it provides no role for the divine, has been provoking controversy since 1859, when Charles Darwin published "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection."

Oh I get it. Unless every other word isnt the word "God" I cant believe in the divine? Oh no! Ever since I've said "Sincerely, The Vault Dweller" I never wrote "Sincerely, (God exists) The (God exists) Vault (God exists) Dweller (God exists)" Thus everyone will note my lack of a mention of God and think I'm an atheist! Woe is me!

1. The introduction of creationism in school is an infringement on the separation of Church and state. Besides "which" creationism will they teach pertell?

2. If they want to stop having evolution in school that makes sense. However...to have freedom of speech one must formulate an opinion. How can you formulate an opinion without information? How can you have information with certain "idea's" edited out of understanding? Hence, how can you have freedom of speech? Ok you dont like evolution then dont care! Not like anyone makes you believe creationism either...

3. Go read a science book on the history of evolution. It's to explain the differences and similarities in life...it never was intended to tell people God didnt create them. It went that way yes, but I cant stand people thinking science is some sort of separate atheist practice.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
Monkey Business

Monkey Business



The theory of Evolution is a scientific work in progress.

I'm not aware that it was ever concerned with "The Creator" much less the genus species of His/Her/It's - chosen - creatures. Particularly any 'lost tribes' in Kansas.

Science in it's arrogance seeks to prove assumptions with facts, with data. It's a 'man made' intellectual construct that requires the narrow confines of this physical plane, this 4 or 5 dimensional sandbox.

Is "Intelligent Design" a scientific theory?

I am not aware of ' intelligent design ' having "proven", or "factual" status. 'Intelligent design' still depends on the BELIEF SYSTEM of it's handlers.

Does saying a belief system is a science, make it a science?

'Intelligent design' would be most welcome if 'offered' as a philosophy, or in a class of comparative religion. Or one of those 'values clarification' classes, with all the rest of the - moral - lifeboat situations.

It appears misleading. Dishonest. To call it science. Just as it was dishonest of atheists to "prove' anything religious with a scientific theory. Particularly since the
"Snots of Enlightenment" would sooner claim a 'chimp' as kin then our fellow 'naked apes' in Kansas. To some of our fellow apes, the theory of Evolution was not used as a pointer to define the line between science and belief, but as a whip to humiliate the beliefs of Biblical strict interpretation.

So the Culture War continues.

At this point in this reoccurring theme, this dramatic passion play, of our post modern age, 'intelligent design' is a Trojan Horse, a wedge issue to force religious teachings into public supported education. Perhaps this confusion of what is scientific fact will blur the basis of scientific rationality, and even the Marxists will
win patents and Nobel's with shell game tricks in stem cell research,

At this point, 'intelligent design' is state supported religion.

A jack in a box.

Turn the crank and out pops ... Jesus.


Ya'll ready for the second coming?




4too
 
Hovercar Madness said:
Actually Intelligent Design Theory is very much a deist theory. It appeals to all those wonderful individuals who instead of actually sitting down and thinking something over choose a way of living which is both "spiritual" but very modern at the same time.

Think modern medicine is too scary but still really want that burning in your chest to go away? Buy some magical bear shit at your holistic medice store!

Same way with deism and ID. People who think religion is weird, but find the concept of life being a completely purposeless process of evolution too scary have found their own little nest of ignorance.

The Amazing Hovercar of Madness hath Spoken!

So sayeth the Hovercar, who is the Word, the Way, the Life! Atheism is full of shit just as much as anything else, Paco; making an assertion about the universe is a matter of "faith". You are BELIEVING that there is no divine entity. You are essentially making a statement lacking the same reliable evidence as anyone else. "Hey, there is no God because I haven't seen one yet. Case closed." If you want to maintain a semblance of dignity in the argument, you might aswell be agnostic.

I have to be SOMEWHAT skeptical of how rational *you* would be as well, Hovercar. Human creatures are by nature irrational in our actions; things we cherish sometimes don't make sense. Wonder what things *you* might care about that you shouldn't, hmm? Wow, what an evil, I believe in a divine entity but not religious texts or holy extremism. Why damn, I must be a Bible thumper and hate evil-lution amongst everything else. Because, you know, Carl Sagan (pantheist), Albert Einstein (deist), CHarles Darwin (deist) and others are obviously fools and wayward religious freaks who contributed nothing to science.

Look, just because I am a deist doesn't mean that I support the idea of having to prop up the sham that is "intelligent design" in classrooms. I support science, I feel it is the greatest contribution to prosperity that humanity has ever devised. Who the hell says evolution can't be "intelligent design"? The laws of thermodynamics? The scientific method? I am sorry, I attribute those things to some higher purpose in the universe, seeing the mechanism of chaos theory and quantum probability as merely manifestations of something greater.



On a side note:

Wait, I wonder: Can we clone Jesus from any tissue samples of all those holy sites?! That would be AWESOME!
 
Well, Fireblade, my light-tempered friend, seeing as I don't choose to fill in the blanks in human knowledge with the explaination of the working of a supernatural being, I guess I do find myself a more rational being.

True, I don't know exactly what your particular deism ammounts to, but saying that the holes in one rational theory prompted you to adopt an irrational concept is well... sort of stupid. But what speaks in your favour is that it's really quite hip nowadays. Like believing in reincarnation: a those fancy-pantsed well-educated people who feel like showing off their spirituality by believing in total utter...

Remember the name hovercar madness my pretties, for he has once again spoken!


EDIT:

Just wondering, why in god's sacred name do you believe that the laws of thermodynamics show the force of a supernatural being?

EDIT OVER!
 
Logical fallacy: Non sequiteur.

I don't believe the laws of thermodynamics prove a divine being exists. If you look up 'deism' it is:

"The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation."

I think you are confusing deism with theism. To me, there is no "God of the gaps" as you seem to think I profess.
 
Getting a little off topic, eh guys?

Whether or not atheism, deism, agnosticism, theism, ism ism is bullshit or not isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not Intelligent Design is scientific theory.

It isn't.

While you may be able to make scientific arguments for Intelligent Design, it isn't a thought system based in scientific method and observation. The belief that everything exists, therefore it was created is a rationalizing that has no basis in observable phenomenon. You can't observe creation (of the universe), yet you can observe biological changes in species in order to adapt to their environment.

Intelligent Design does not belong in a science classroom, period.
 
Uhhh.... :roll:

It has been proven that evolution DOES take place. How stupid/shortsighted/thickskulled/brainless (cross out unneded) you have to be, not to take proof into account? I mean, take the homo florensis for example - discovered recently, is a dead proof that humans evolve in order to adapt to certain enviroments.

Welsh, I think witch burnings wont return - only an American Inquisition will rise to jail all the heathens, daring to oppose the world of God[impersonating fools who are not by him]sent disciples.... OSLT.
 
The problem with evolution is that people get things mixed up.

Evolution has been proven to exist, the problem is that it hasn't proven to be the origin of species. While butterflies may develop wing patterns to frighten off predators, they're still butterflies.

This is why the ever-elusive "Missing Link" that ties Cro-Magnon to the lower apes is such a mysterious and elusive subject.
 
Sorry for getting getting things slightly off-topic, but my point was that ID was part of a wider deist/spiritualist trend in society. Not some evil wedge-strategy by creationists. Well, maybe it is part of their strategy, but atleast it's meant to appeal to a certain spiritualist crowd.

Now back to my tasty little tete-a-tete with FB:

I apologize for mixing up "proving the existence of" and "being manifestations of", but surely it amounts to the same thing. Also you claim that your god is not a "god of gaps" (nice term by the way). Ok, then let's call it a "god of a single gap" namely the causing of the big bang. You replace our current scientific theorys on the origin of time and the universe with a supernatural spark of some sort that set off the big bang. Sorry, but this is exactly what I meant with replacing a rational (be it erroneous due to it still being in its infancy) theory with an irrational one.

Also, in case anyone is wondering about the irrationality of the supernatural creator, there is beyond the lack of valid arguments and empirical data also the logical problem of "if the super-being created something out of nothing, then who created the super-being?".

EDIT:

Oh, and on a side note, your damn american ID-disease has contaminated my rainsoaked little shit-country. Our minister of education has called for a "discussion on evolution and creation"

I demand an apology from you yanks.
 
Hovercar Madness said:
Sorry for getting getting things slightly off-topic, but my point was that ID was part of a wider deist/spiritualist trend in society. Not some evil wedge-strategy by creationists. Well, maybe it is part of their strategy, but atleast it's meant to appeal to a certain spiritualist crowd.

Now back to my tasty little tete-a-tete with FB:

I apologize for mixing up "proving the existence of" and "being manifestations of", but surely it amounts to the same thing. Also you claim that your god is not a "god of gaps" (nice term by the way). Ok, then let's call it a "god of a single gap" namely the causing of the big bang. You replace our current scientific theorys on the origin of time and the universe with a supernatural spark of some sort that set off the big bang. Sorry, but this is exactly what I meant with replacing a rational (be it erroneous due to it still being in its infancy) theory with an irrational one.

Also, in case anyone is wondering about the irrationality of the supernatural creator, there is beyond the lack of valid arguments and empirical data also the logical problem of "if the super-being created something out of nothing, then who created the super-being?".

EDIT:

Oh, and on a side note, your damn american ID-disease has contaminated my rainsoaked little shit-country. Our minister of education has called for a "discussion on evolution and creation"

I demand an apology from you yanks.

Well I shall summarize, since yes, I have been a bit off the point as well.

I believe the Big Bang occured. Whether you wish to call it the expansion (cosmology) of an infinitely dense and infinitely existing point before space-time occured, or else want to call it a "divine" source is hardly related to "intelligent design". Can it not follow that the possibilty exists that the Big Bang could be, as you said a "manifestation" of whatever divine intellect you want to name?

Intelligent design is the theory God plays a part in the guidance of evolution and other natural laws of existence. I merely posit that perhaps a divine being created them, I make NO claims as to such a divine being "guiding" evolution or humanity. Again, i ask that you read the statement of deism carefully. It is more aligned with the agnostic position than you realize. ID theory is right up there with "supernatural" nonsense that deists vehemently disagree with.

Again, how is it "irrational" if there is no proof existing, hmm? If we cannot determine the cause of the Big Bang as of yet, then it is hardly fair to say which arguments are "rational" and "irrational" if you cannot back up either one. You are 'shooting in the dark' as much as anyone else. If it makes you more comfortable to believe it was pure probability that such an event occured, more power to you. It doesn't make you any more rational than anyone else, it is merely a belief you possess that you feel is correct, barring the absence of any evidence. I fail to see how this is different from my own belief.

There is no "replacement" of current space-time theory. Science explains "how" the universe exists. It makes no claims whatsoever on "why" it exists. There is no inherent conflict between science and spirituality in this regard. I will never, repeat never, replace science with the phrase "will of God" or some other nonsense. Science exists to learn more about how the universe operates, it does nothing for why we exist, nor why the universe itself exists.

Your argument before is called the "unmoved mover" argument. It was outlined by St. Augustus, I believe. It is also stupid and wrong in my opinion, but that is just *my* opinion. it has nothing to do with how I feel a divine being exists.


You get no apologies from us. We're the land where you sent all your poor and destitute. It's your fault that you screwed up your own countries so bad that they all came here. Besides, the Netherlands are that famed bastion of tolerance and understanding of everyone... you reap what you sow. We demand resistitution!
 
I don't see why a universe being created by a/the god and being abandoned is any less likely than the spark of the universe..
 
Specialist said:
I don't see why a universe being created by a/the god and being abandoned is any less likely than the big bang.
Congratulations. You missed the point. The big band is a theory which can not be proved by any scientific fact an is while the evolution theory is a confirmable theorem (which can be proved on palaeontological and genetical conclusions).
But whatsoever... the whole issue is ridiculous :roll:

EDIT: and due to my poor knowlegde of English I don't know what the term "spark of the universe" you edited into your post means
 
You're actually quite right, apologies for sending amish and shit your way.

From what I gather your argument amounts to "creationists are even sillier than us, so go pick on them already", you don't get off that easy, you silly deist, you.

The main problem is that it's all just so damn lazy. You say that human knowledge in field of the origin of space and time is still lacking so you make up some stuff about a supernatural being (or whatever you like to call it). Whether it was lightning, gravity, or now the origin of time and space, attributing it to the work of some supernatural being is saying "we don't know, and we'll never know, so let's stop thinking about it and have a nice cup of tea". Atleast science is trying you lazy bastards. And, like with lightning and gravity, chances are that we'll get to know a lot more about the origin of time and space in the future. Because that's how science works, it's all about setting up hypotheses and knocking them down when we learn something new. Any theory involving supernatural forces cannot be called science because they can't possibly be verified. You can never prove the existence of a supernatural being.[/i]
 
Hovercar- sorry about the "discussion about evolutions and creation" but this is what comes when you import our hamburgers, blue jeans and movies. You get some cool shit but some rather silliness from our bizarre cultural mishmash.

I am enjoying this debate and hope you two keep it civil. That said might this all just be about the clash between epistemology

efinition: \E*pis`te*mol"o*gy\, n. [Gr. ? knowledge + -logy.]
The theory or science of the method or grounds of knowledge.

and ontology?

Definition: \On*tol"o*gy\, n. [Gr. ? the things which exist
(pl.neut. of ?, ?, being, p. pr. of ? to be) + -logy: cf.F.
ontologie.]
That department of the science of metaphysics whichinvestigates and explains the nature and essential properties and relations of all beings, as such, or the principles and
causes of being.

Of this we may ideally say that epistemology is the business of science, but I wonder how many of our scientific discoveries would have been discovered if not initially informed by our ontological choices.

Scientists may say that epistomology rules their ontology, but I suspect it is more likely the reverse-

That our ontological assumptions shape our epistemological findings.

But I digress.
 
Hovercar Madness said:
You're actually quite right, apologies for sending amish and shit your way.

From what I gather your argument amounts to "creationists are even sillier than us, so go pick on them already", you don't get off that easy, you silly deist, you.

The main problem is that it's all just so damn lazy. You say that human knowledge in field of the origin of space and time is still lacking so you make up some stuff about a supernatural being (or whatever you like to call it). Whether it was lightning, gravity, or now the origin of time and space, attributing it to the work of some supernatural being is saying "we don't know, and we'll never know, so let's stop thinking about it and have a nice cup of tea". Atleast science is trying you lazy bastards. And, like with lightning and gravity, chances are that we'll get to know a lot more about the origin of time and space in the future. Because that's how science works, it's all about setting up hypotheses and knocking them down when we learn something new. Any theory involving supernatural forces cannot be called science because they can't possibly be verified. You can never prove the existence of a supernatural being.[/i]

Lazy? I take quite a bit of offense to that, as you have yet to lay your cards on the table, stating what YOU think the universe is all about. Because by all means, if you can offer a rational opinion about why we all exist, be my guest. If anything, saying "No, it cannot and will not exist" is even lazier, because you aren't offering any clear alternative. It is not even a positive argument, but simply a denial. It doesn't "prove" anything, let alone is it supported by reason any more than "atheistic" beliefs such as communism are supported by reason. I do not even wish to get yet more off topic to explain how atheism and deism are no different from theological philosophy, of the same category of argument between things such as deontology and virtue theory.

You can use science to again, prove how the universe works. You *cannot* use science to attribute the reason the universe exists, Hovercar. Well shit, the moment science proves a divine being cannot exist...that there is no possibility that such a thing could exist, guess what...I'LL STOP BELIEVING. I was an atheist, once, I can understand the argument. Open minds go both ways Hovercar. I am sorry I am not easily convinced by rhetoric, any more than you would be about hearing how *I* came to the conclusion that I believe a divine principle of some sort exists. If you want to attribute laziness, look to the intellectual sloppiness of atheism:

Atheism:
1. Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2. The doctrine that there is no God or gods.
2. Godlessness; immorality.

It is an affirmation that such a thing cannot or does not exist. It offers no rational alternative to the meaning of existence save "We make what we can of the world", which I happen to agree with. Tell me then how it differs from a belief in reason leading to a different conclusion? If you read the definition and several books, you might see that deism come to such a belief through reason, not through superstition, not through prayers to the sky or whatever you mentioned earlier.

I look forward, as always, to your response.
 
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