Kotaku articles on Fallout 1 and 3

[Sander]

You're actually downplaying the racist aspects of the Atlantic slave trade in an attempt to go "yeah well there was slavery elsewhere". That's impressive.

 

[Gsonderling]

You're actually downplaying the racist aspects of the Atlantic slave trade in an attempt to go "yeah well there was slavery elsewhere". That's impressive.

But there was slavery pretty much everywhere including "free" Africa. And there were free blacks in the south. Those are both facts that can hardly be disputed.
I didn't say that race didn't play role just that not all blacks were slaves and some were even slavers.

Please compare these two statements:

A: "Race played no role in American slavery!"
B:"Not all blacks in south were slaves!"

I believe you can see some difference.


About the games that mention slavery a lot. The Fallout with most references to american slave trade was F3 and it hardly helped its quality.

 

[Sander]

You're downplaying the racist aspects of the Atlantic slave trade. You're still doing that, in fact. Yes, there were (very, very few) black slave owners in the United States. This does nothing to change the fact that slavery in the USA was a far-reaching system of racial oppression that still has. It does nothing to change the fact that American chattel slavery was functionally different from most forms of slavery around the world in many different ways (see David Graeber's Debt: The First 5,000 Years for some introductory discussion). It does nothing to change the fact that that system had and continues to have a profound impact on the entire world, and has created a legacy we call racism. And it does nothing to change the fact that the entire system was wrong.

 

[Akratus]

It's only worth to add minorities and references to certain issues to the game if it adds value and if it's in line with the given setting.
It makes no sense to waste writing and development time to it, if it doesn't actually makes the game better and is only there to prevent people from whining about their special little minority not being represented.

Having "minorities" and "references to certain issues" is not something you add into games or other forms of fiction. It's something that is present in every society we know, and not having those things represented in a game is a choice to omit a very real aspect of human society, and of human life.

It's also about an entire medium speaking only to one perspective,

So stories with a caucasian protagonist only speak to caucasian people? Horseshoe theory much?

Yeah I have a real hard time putting myself in the shoes of hellboy in these comics I'm reading. A literal demon summoned to earth by a russian's nazi experiment? I have a hard time believing his struggle with his self-identified humanity because his skin color is off-putting.

about groups of people not seeing themselves or their experiences represented in any game.

Did you know that Fallout 3 has options for 4 different ethnicities in character creation? And that all of these ethnicities are represented by in-game characters?

The games include some black people, which is good,

Oh apparently you do.

but they stay the fuck away from anything remotely to do with racial oppression

Well thank fuck, imagine Bethesda handling a subject like that.

But now, correct me if I'm wrong, you're equating the non-white viewpoint with a need to deliberate oppression? That´s kind of generalizing the viewpoints of individuals who have varying life experiences and a varying connection with their ethnic identity, dontcha think?

Besides, I really don't think you can fault any piece of media for staying out of politics.

*reads rest of thread*

You're downplaying the racist aspects of the Atlantic slave trade.

My god what have I gotten myself into. .

 

[Gsonderling]

So racism is invention of white people? BTW Cherokees had slaves.

 

[Sander]

So stories with a caucasian protagonist only speak to caucasian people?

There's such a thing as a specifically black experience, just as there's a thing as a specifically Chinese-American experience, or a specifically rural white American experience, or a specific inner-city experience. If those experiences aren't represented anywhere in any video games, then a portion of society doesn't see themselves reflected. Which is an issue.

So racism is invention of white people? BTW Cherokees had slaves.

The system that elevates white skin color and contains anti-black racism as it exists in society today is an invention of 'Western' society, yes.

 

[Akratus]

So stories with a caucasian protagonist only speak to caucasian people?

There's such a thing as a specifically black experience, just as there's a thing as a specifically Chinese-American experience, or a specifically rural white American experience, or a specific inner-city experience. If those experiences aren't represented anywhere in any video games, then a portion of society doesn't see themselves reflected. Which is an issue.

So the only thing capable of being reflected, in a "non-white" person, is their race/specific racial experience?

And pray-tell what a specifically caucasian experience is. I must have missed those.

I'm getting horseshoe theory vibes en-masse here, by the way.

 

[Gsonderling]

This is racism

beyond [known peoples of black West Africa] to the south there is no civilization in the proper sense. There are only humans who are closer to dumb animals than to rational beings. They live in thickets and caves, and eat herbs and unprepared grain. They frequently eat each other. They cannot be considered human beings." "Therefore, the Negro nations are, as a rule, submissive to slavery, because (Negroes) have little that is (essentially) human and possess attributes that are quite similar to those of dumb animals, as we have stated.-ibn Khaldun 14th century

I wonder actually if putting about bilion of people into one proverbial bag is not racism of itself. You know since many whites and white americans had nothing to do with slavery and many were actually slaves.

 

[Sander]

So the only thing capable of being reflective, in a "non-white" person, is their race/specific racial experience?

No, I'm saying that there are specific perspectives and experiences that are unique and speak to specific population groups, because those population groups on average experience certain thing that those outside don't. Specific population groups have different cultural backgrounds and experiences. It's why Roots and Black-Ish have a different audience than, say, How I Met Your Mother. This is not a problem, until one specific experience dominates media to the exclusion of others -- which is largely what we see in video games.

That doesn't mean people can't empathize with or enjoy games that don't speak to their specific cultural experience.

I wonder actually if putting about bilion of people into one proverbial bag is not racism of itself. You know since many whites and white americans had nothing to do with slavery and many were actually slaves.

That'd be a good point, if I said something similar to "all white people are responsible for the Atlantic slave trade". But I didn't. Instead, I noted that the system of anti-black racism as it exists in the world today was created by 'Western' society.

 

[Akratus]

So the only thing capable of being reflective, in a "non-white" person, is their race/specific racial experience?

No, I'm saying that there are specific perspectives and experiences that are unique and speak to specific population groups, because those population groups on average experience certain thing that those outside don't. Specific population groups have different cultural backgrounds and experiences. It's why Roots and Black-Ish have a different audience than, say, How I Met Your Mother. This is not a problem, until one specific experience dominates media to the exclusion of others -- which is largely what we see in video games.

That doesn't mean people can't empathize with or enjoy games that don't speak to their specific cultural experience.

I guess I agree with everything you said here. But what is this one specific experience? Is it the caucasian one? if so, explain to me what it consists of.

 

[Hassknecht]

So stories with a caucasian protagonist only speak to caucasian people?

There's such a thing as a specifically black experience, just as there's a thing as a specifically Chinese-American experience, or a specifically rural white American experience, or a specific inner-city experience. If those experiences aren't represented anywhere in any video games, then a portion of society doesn't see themselves reflected. Which is an issue.

Well, where do you stop? We're all unique, and everyone has unique experiences. My own specific experience is also nowhere represented in video games, why am I not allowed to complain?

 

[Gsonderling]

An artist wheather he makes a videogame, a book or movie should have freedom to pursue his vision. No one should tell artist what parts of history or society he should portray or what kind of people should be in his games, doing that is one step away from censorship, freedom of expression is a basic human right and must not be violated because someone feels underepresented.

If your worldview is underepresented in media make your own game. You are not owed anything by artists and developers.

 

[Akratus]

Yeah Sander. Entitled much?

 

[Sander]

I guess I agree with everything you said here. But what is this one specific experience? Is it the caucasian one? if so, explain to me what it consists of.

It's mostly, not exclusively, the white American/Western European perspective. That's a super-broad and pretty complicated group of experiences, of course (as is the case for the black experience), but at first glance there are a few common things that set it apart. One of those things would be a perspective where discrimination and societal oppression are things that evil individual people do, rather than widespread issues in the structure of society. Another thing would be that the cultural and historical references are often very white-centric -- you won't hear about Frederick Douglass or W.E.B. DuBois or James Baldwin or NWA or Roots or even Muhammad Ali in most games that are set in real-world-based settings, while those are cultural touchstones you'll see referenced a ton in black cultural products. Another aspect (in (faux)-historical settings) would be the focus on certain parts of history that foreground white people's experiences -- medieval-to-Early-Modern Europe (with black people removed), nineteenth-century England but without black people (Dishonored does that), the Roman Empire (often also without black people), the American revolution (mentioning slavery as little as possible). Where's the game about Sunjiata? Or the Hatian revolution? And yet another aspect is the often colonial lens that is used when the scope is broadened beyond those settings in historical games -- the very Orientalistic view in Prince of Persia, for instance. Finally, when games do portray black people, they almost never do it from the perspective of black people -- so for instance Bioshock: Infinite includes some stuff about racism, but places it in a context where it doesn't affect the player at all.

This is a very complicated subject that isn't really suited to a forum like this, and I'm not doing a very good job of encompassing everything I mean or say. But the best way to see the difference is to watch some black cultural products and then examine how often you see that kind of perspective in video games. Watch some Spike Lee films (I'd suggest Do The Right Thing and Malcolm X), read some James Baldwin (The Fire Next Time, for instance), really listen to some NWA lyrics, read some speculative fiction written by black people (Nnedi Okorafor and N.K. Jemisin are terrific) etc -- you may be surprised at the things you see there that you don't see in almost any video games.

Well, where do you stop? We're all unique, and everyone has unique experiences. My own specific experience is also nowhere represented in video games, why am I not allowed to complain?

You're not allowed to complain? That's news to me! Though, you know, all in proportion -- complaining that there are (almost) no games that speak to a specifically black experience (~10% of the U.S. population) is different from complaining that there are no games that speak to the much smaller Inuit population, obviously.

@Gsonderling: Saying that something would be better if it included X is not remotely the same thing as censorship. Creators are free to do whatever the hell they want. I'm free to have an opinion about what they're doing. As are you. Welcome to free speech.

 

[Gsonderling]

First of all not many black people lived in Europe during middle ages if you don't count Spain and those were mostly invaders. If there were any black people they were most minor of minorities.
As for Dishonored. It is a fantasy universe and quite possibly it doesn't have black people or has them living somewhere else. Tell me BTW when was the last time Outsider spoke to you or when you used you whale oil powered car?

As for censorship: You are right that saying

something would be better if it included X

is not censorship however pressing artists to conform to your world view comes very close.
During the discussion it seemed that you implied that not having black perspective is a huge fault in modern media and that it should not be so. Im ok with that.

What Im not ok with is forcing it down peoples throats. Statistically speaking most of the world had nothing to do with atlantic slave trade, it is distant past and there are issues that have to be solved today.
For example Africa could use more foreign invovemend and investment instead of isolation.

 

[UniversalWolf]

Another thing would be that the cultural and historical references are often very white-centric -- you won't hear about Frederick Douglass or W.E.B. DuBois or James Baldwin or NWA or Roots or even Muhammad Ali in most games that are set in real-world-based settings, while those are cultural touchstones you'll see referenced a ton in black cultural products. Another aspect (in (faux)-historical settings) would be the focus on certain parts of history that foreground white people's experiences -- medieval-to-Early-Modern Europe (with black people removed), nineteenth-century England but without black people (Dishonored does that), the Roman Empire (often also without black people), the American revolution (mentioning slavery as little as possible). Where's the game about Sunjiata? Or the Hatian revolution? And yet another aspect is the often colonial lens that is used when the scope is broadened beyond those settings in historical games -- the very Orientalistic view in Prince of Persia, for instance. Finally, when games do portray black people, they almost never do it from the perspective of black people -- so for instance Bioshock: Infinite includes some stuff about racism, but places it in a context where it doesn't affect the player at all.

Not seeing the problem with any of this. If someone wants to make a game aobut the Haitian Revolution, there's absolutely nothing standing in the way. If it's a good game, I'll give it a look. In fact, someone making a great game about one of these subjects would be the right way to go about getting more of those sorts of games. The wrong way is to complain while expecting other people to attend to your grievances, perceived or otherwise.

 

[Sander]

Excluding black people by choice of setting (by the way, medieval Europe was not at all devoid of black people), even from your fictional universe, is still excluding black people.

Not seeing the problem with any of this. If someone wants to make a game aobut the Haitian Revolution, there's absolutely nothing standing in the way.

There is, though. Publisher's preferences, for instance (including marketing budgets). A lack of diversity among game developers is another. A general risk-averse approach to game development. The ways you can market your game. It's not so easy to "just make a game".

Also the attitude that you're not allowed to complain about the state of the world is asinine. This is a problem, and people get to point that out even if they don't have the means to fix it.

 

[Gsonderling]

Few illustrations prove nothing. Genetic and ethnic studies do.
If you can find me a hard science article proving that black people were more than 5% population in mediaval europe I will apologize to you.

 

[Sander]

Few illustrations prove nothing. Genetic and ethnic studies do.
If you can find me a hard science article proving that black people were more than 5% population in mediaval europe I will apologize to you.

They prove that there were black people in medieval Europe in lots of different roles. "Yeah but my setting is medieval Europe" is not a valid excuse for excluding black people. Nevermind that that reasoning also skips the whole why-are-these-games-all-in-settings-where-we-can-exclude-black-people bit.

I'm also not sure why 5% is somehow the threshold. Not that you'd ever find a historical study that could show that because source limitations, obviously. But as Saladin Ahmed notes, kings weren't exactly common, and yet games include them lots of times! We have examples of black saints and black knights and black noblemen, and yet somehow when the hordes of hundreds of (faux-)medieval enemies attack, they're all white. Funny, huh?

 

[Gsonderling]

What about redheads? They were rare too right? You are confusing two things: social role and color of skin. Social role of king makes him a character of interest for fiction. Color of skin or hair or eyes makes a character interesting.... how exactly?

On Ahmeds blog I found this by a developer of Kingdom come: Deliverance

And they will never be happy. If you don’t have a gay character in your game, you are homophobic, if you do have gay character in your game, you are homophobic, because they don’t like the character. If women in your game look good, you are sexist, if they look bad, you are sexist, if you can fight with them, you are misogynistic, if you can’t fight with them, you are using them as objects, if you don’t have any women, because there is no correct way how to have them, you are misogynistic.
It’s a witch hunt and it’s affecting my artistic freedom.

I can not agree more.