Line of sight -- how do you prefer it?

[Nocturne]

Hello, I might agree with the fact tat you don't see critters and NPC's in the distance, but no LOS or FOW in any other way.... it defies everything I want to see in a Fallout games..... With all the focus on battle, do you want FO3 or FO:T 2 ?

 

[PsychoSniper]

I think it should use a system either where EVERYTHING is visable, ala the classic FO games, or use a system where you only see what the player can see from his position as in FO:Craptics, actualy, the FO:C solution would make items like the motion sensor useful for more than +20%outdoorsmen skill now.... since it could cause you to see differnt markers, depending on the size/movement of objects that are outside of the characthers LOS........

 

[calculon000]

I agree with Psychosniper in that it would be less annoying to have the whole map visible from the get go, but I have to say that it wouldn't be as realistic for a RPG.

In FOT, you were given intel, and a map, of each mission when you started, so of course the whole area would be able to be seen without having to actually explore it. In a RPG, you should have to explore a town that you haven't been to yet to see where everything is. I agree with Shadowbird that the LOS should have a REALLY long range (Pretty much infinite for the purposes of a map that's only one kilometer on a side), and when you get to a town that you haven't been to yet you should be able to pick out the location of every building that you can see (Which is basically the whole map). But if there were to be a small building behind a big one that you would not be able to see in real life, then you should have to actually walk around the big building to be able to see the small building behind it. Afterward, when you come into this town again, the whole map should be revealed because you remember where everything was. The same should be true with a town that you haven't been to yet, but that you have a map for.

The FOT LOS system was excellent in my opinion, in part because of the grayscaling of entities that you *knew* were there, but you could not longer see. With buildings, as soon as you explore a town and then later can no longer see a certain building, it should not be grayed out because you can probably safely assume that the building isn't going anywhere and it should have full colors.

So I think that the FOT LOS system should be in FO3.

2) Not an all-around LOS. No one can see in all directions at once. And this would make party formations meaningful outside of battle, and also allow stuff like enemies following you but hiding when you turn around.

While I agree this would be more realistic, I think it would be too annoying to be worth putting in the game.

About the sniper characters - LOS should be dependant on perception and - occasionally - on equipment. I.e. - if you have a high PE, you can see and shoot stuff at a further distance. If you equip a sniper rifle, you get a boost to LOS range, but loose it's width (since you're looking through a scope).

If #2 on your list was to be implemented, then I totally agree that this should be part of it.

 

[Colt]

2) Not an all-around LOS. No one can see in all directions at once. And this would make party formations meaningful outside of battle, and also allow stuff like enemies following you but hiding when you turn around.

While I agree this would be more realistic, I think it would be too annoying to be worth putting in the game.

Not necessarily more realistic. The game can't really simulate the character being able to move their head around. Having a static cone of sight in front of the character would be annoying as hell.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

2) Not an all-around LOS. No one can see in all directions at once. And this would make party formations meaningful outside of battle, and also allow stuff like enemies following you but hiding when you turn around.

Party formations, no thanks. I want FO3 to be a classic RPG with only control over your character. Maybe some in-combat hotkey commands, like cease fire or attack my target but no more control over your followers than that.

LOS as done in FOT would work for me, with one exception. In FOT no matter what your perception you couldn't see anyone beyond a certain distance even though you could still see all the terrain. So have people in view always visible (unless hidden of course) but perhaps greyed out if they are beyond your characters perception range.

 

[PsychoSniper]

I think the greyed otu characthers from Tactics should be used when you can tell that SOMETHING is hiding (maybe change it so you can miss your guess on what it is) but there should be another method, that of 'greened out' characthers, those that you remember but are a distance from, and cant tell one way or another (plus a 3rd color for things you snese with the motion sensor.)

Hers an example......... youre retiurning to a shop. You remember where the shopkeeper stands so you see him greened out.

However, when you get close, your preception is high enough to detect one greyed out person.

You go in, and hte greyed out person is a theif, and there are two more on the far side of the shop, the greened out clerk disapers, and you see a corpse on the floor.

But if you have the motion sensor, and use it, the greened out clerk disapers, and there redded out human forms appear, letting you know more of what youre getting into.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I don't know about anyone else but when I say greyed out I was refering to in game not on a mini-map. You know when you've got a character near a wall and on the otherside is an npc, you can't see them but you know they are there (you can hear them?) so instead of the sprite being drawn in glorius colour the npc appears grey.

 

[Shadowbird]

In FOT no matter what your perception you couldn't see anyone beyond a certain distance even though you could still see all the terrain.

Wrong. I myself have used a character with PE so high that I could see the critters of the WHOLE LEVEL grayed out, no matter where was I standing. It's just not possible to achieve PE that high game-wise.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Wrong. I myself have used a character with PE so high that I could see the critters of the WHOLE LEVEL grayed out, no matter where was I standing. It's just not possible to achieve PE that high game-wise.

I was talking about the default game, perception between 1 and 12, who cares what you can do with an uber hacked character. It doesn't matter if you have a perception of 1 or 12 you can only see sprites up to 66 tiles (IIRC) away, sure if you hack your characters perception up to 1000 everyone else is greyed out, that's the effect I'd like to see but without having to hack the character and the other side effects of doing so. Where I talked about perception range I meant perhaps if your character has a poor perception only those close to you would be drawn properly and the better the perception the more actors and items you could see clearly.

 

[PsychoSniper]

I don't know about anyone else but when I say greyed out I was refering to in game not on a mini-map.

So was I, those effects could be used just like the greyed out characthers in FO:C, just a few diff colors to signify differnt things

Detected thru Pe: greyd out
Rememberd to be there: greened out
detected with motion sensor: redded out

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

Sorry your english was so bad in your previous post, that from the little I could understand I thought you were talking about FOT's mini map which has red and green a grey dots.

 

[calculon000]

FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!

 

[PsychoSniper]

Thats cause I aint speak english, I speak American.

 

[calculon000]

You mean Americaneze, right?

 

[Dove]

Thats cause I aint speak english, I speak American.

You may speak it, but you sure as hell can't type it.

 

[requiem_for_a_starfury]

I was being serious, I thought psycho was talking about the mini map.

Detected thru Pe: greyd out
Rememberd to be there: greened out
detected with motion sensor: redded out

Remembering where someone is when they duck behind cover in combat is one thing or knowing someone is on the otherside of a wall because you can still hear them, but having the computer draw characters or items green that you remember would make the screen rather cluttered, you might as well not have any line of sight implementation and have everyone visible in that case, it probably would be less for the engine to do. The motion sensor should only be temporary, but I prefer that to pop up in a mini-map rather than making red people appear in the main game screen.

 

[Shadowbird]

It doesn't matter if you have a perception of 1 or 12

What I meant to say was that *technically* FOT does the LOS correctly - making the view distance dependant on PE. The problem is that it's still so small that not only it's nowhere near reality, but also voids any notable differences between 1 and 12 PE. You're right about that, and I already "asked" for a drastic increase in LOS range in my original post.

 

[I eat Burst for breakfast]

After playing Fallout a couple times, it gets to the point where I'm going into an area thinking, "Yeah, I know this place, and the baddies are always up there, in there and over there." Takes away from the suspense, ya know?

You think you'll forget where the baddies stand because there is Fog of War?

 

[Endless Void]

I don't think that there should be a change in FO's LOS.

I mean, in FO:T there were enemies patrolling aside. But in FO you don't even know who's your enemy, and who's your friend. And, as most of the characters in FO is motionless, I don't think there is a change in LOS needed. Of course if daily routines (as mentioned in Assassin Weapons thread I think) will be added for characters then it might be nice to see things that way... But that kind of LOS hindrance just reminds me too much of combat-oriented games...

 

[mr freak]

.....that you can change line of sight.......