Awesome map - great for someone who doesn't know much about the history of metal (me).
Wish they made one like this for every genre!
Thanks for sharing, Chuck!
Wish they made one like this for every genre!
Thanks for sharing, Chuck!
Map of Metal
- Thread starter Atomkilla
- Start date
Welcome
Chuck Norris, your best friend - Vote for 'im!
Chuck Norris, your best friend - Vote for 'im!
Guiltyofbeingtrite
Vault Dweller
I always considered numetal bands to be derivative of bands that were derivative of metal bands. In the same way indie rock is somewhat derivative of post punk which is directive of punk.
It just happens to have metal in the name, mainly due to the aesthetics over the music.
It just happens to have metal in the name, mainly due to the aesthetics over the music.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
DRI bridged the gap, between two styles and two violently opposed sub cultures and blended them into a kind of coexistence. They helped define the sound and evolved it. Those that came after weren't crossing over anything since punk scene was gone.Guiltyofbeingtrite said:
Bal-Sagoth said:
I really don't want to argue that much, but there's no common definition of genres here, so there's also no real right or wrong.
If you look which is the difference between rock an metal you will find that nu-metal is often a lot nearer to metal than to rock. And if you compare nu-metal with metal and any other of the bride genres you will most likely count it as metal.
If you say it should be a big new genre - you would have to find which new factors it brings to the table which wasn't there before.
So sure it differs from Classic Metal or Black MEtal and so on, but so does a lot of 'Alternative Metal'.
Bands like Apocalyptica are in no way more metal than KoRn. Because metals definition was allways heavily centered around guitars - but hey, as said there is no right or wrong...
Atomkilla said:
Sorry but i really don't see what you want to tell me with that.
1. you don't have do be beaten to count as a metal fan.
2. you can find idiots who will beat the crap out of you for being a 'freak' because you don't belong to some sub-cultural-group.
3. you can find "metal freaks" who will give you strange looks if you don't wear certain clothes and go to some concerts and the like.
So really what the fuck?
Is it about music or being a freaking poser?
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Bad_Karma said:
I don't want to argue either but LoL what? That is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen someone write about the topic to begin with. No common definition of genres? They are as clear as night and day. The only time they get murky is usually with core bands, and it comes down to which influence comes out the strongest.
Bad_Karma said:
No, no you would not.
Bad_Karma said:
What in the world are you talking about? It does not even have to be as much of a gap as Classic Metal and Black Metal. You could put any number of Death Metal bands up against a band like Slipknot and someone who knows what they are listening to can pick out the differences with ease. This is not some debate on a "new genre" and it is not even open for debate. There is a reason Nu-Metal is universally panned by metal enthusiasts. There is not some conspiracy going on here, I really think discussing technical points will be lost on you because of this next comment though.
Bad_Karma said:
Really? Apocalyptica are no more metal than Korn? Because what makes metal is if it is "heavily centered around guitars"? That one right there just made my head spin, you have put yourself on the level of the weekly trolls who flame the boards because they can't understand the reason they were banned for adding some various Nu-Metal act to the archives.
If you can't tell the difference between those two I honestly think this discussion is lost on you. I have no wish to "argue" anymore either.
@topic
The maps really cool i really would love a map of 'all' music genres and how they evolved though.
The maps and the idea of thing not belonging there reminds me a bit on this article: http://hollywoodmusicmagazine.com/featured/is-it-metal/
@Bal-Sagoth
So yeah... guitars play no role in definition of metal and the definition of the differences between Metal and Rock. Especially they don't factor in to differenciate Metal from Jazz or Metal from Classical music.
And if you don't see that playing Metal with a non-metal instrument doesn't mean it becomes metal (as playing classic music tunes with a e-guitar also doesn't make it classical music) and that playing a bit different or adding different elements doesn't necessarily mean it's no longer metal, then the discussion lost on you.
So go on and play you're game of "Only the definition i got in my head is the right definition!".
The maps really cool i really would love a map of 'all' music genres and how they evolved though.
The maps and the idea of thing not belonging there reminds me a bit on this article: http://hollywoodmusicmagazine.com/featured/is-it-metal/
@Bal-Sagoth
Wikipedia said:
Encyclopædia Britannica said:
allmusic.com said:
So yeah... guitars play no role in definition of metal and the definition of the differences between Metal and Rock. Especially they don't factor in to differenciate Metal from Jazz or Metal from Classical music.
Bal-Sagoth said:
And if you don't see that playing Metal with a non-metal instrument doesn't mean it becomes metal (as playing classic music tunes with a e-guitar also doesn't make it classical music) and that playing a bit different or adding different elements doesn't necessarily mean it's no longer metal, then the discussion lost on you.
So go on and play you're game of "Only the definition i got in my head is the right definition!".
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Bad_Karma said:
Of course they play a role, you were just starting to make less and less sense because of what ever it is your rambling about now, I am not exactly sure. They are just one piece of the puzzle, and only one of the reasons you are able to tell the difference of a Nu-Metal band from a metal one. The elements and style of NM are so vastly different from all the recognized genres that someone who knows what they are listening to can instantly pick out if it is a Nu band or not.
Take Slipknot,Static X, or Korn, three of the biggest Nu-Metal acts before its decline in popularity. Now listen to something by Morbid Angel, Rotting Christ, Iced Earth, My Dying Bride, Megadeth, At the Gates, Iron Maiden, and Enisferium. The structure and style of the songs and the influences are so vastly notable that it is clear why Nu-Metal is a genre off to its self and why the bands fit into none of the pre-described genres.
Those bands were not randomly picked either, at one point in time each of them were considered masters of their respective sub-genres.
Bad_Karma said:
You see, the problem here is opinions. Everyone is going to have opinions on a topic like this, it is impossible not to. True, Nu-Metal would not exist if it was not for metal, it is a fusion genre and an "evolution" if you will. Some would call it a devolution but I digress.
Nu-Metal is an off branch, it borrowed elements from many different backgrounds to form it's own path. A path that is currently in steep decline and has a stigma attached to it for reasons we are already discussing. To be blunt, it is not surviving the test of time. Not much comes out of Nu-Metal these days, mostly people still listening to the bands from the late 90s to 2000s during its glory days.
I never had anything against the genre. Ok well that is not completely true, I think I do have to hold something of a grudge against a genre that gave us Limp Bizkit. The point still remains, you can plug your ears and call it what you want, but Nu-Metal is not nor will it ever be accepted as a validated Heavy Metal sub-genre. Your opinion is a minority in the metal community.
Bal-Sagoth said:
And the opinion of the metal community is a minority within the mainstream music community. So i still can only repeat myself and say that it's not about being right or wrong, as you said before, but it's a matter of opinions.
And i honestly accept the opinion of the overall metal community, i still wonder how Static-X is that much different from Fear Factory but yeah (no you don't need to explain it to me).
I hear what i like to hear and i advise anyone to do so.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Bad_Karma said:
And that matters what exactly? I would hardly call it a minioirity either. Some of the sub-genres are but traditional heavy metal bands have always enjoyed world wide mainstream popularity. Invalid point is still invalid, who would honestly care what an R&B or Pop fans opinion on metal is? If it pertains to metal the only opinion that matters is the fans of metal, hence the metal community.
Bad_Karma said:
Go and listen to Soul of a New Machine, not the Groove inspired later works that got them radio airwave success. A lot of Death Metal influence in there.
thegaresexperience
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Im currently on my netbook so I can't fully experience the map, but it is a very cool idea
As Slipknot though. I used to be into all those bands back in the 5th grade, the only album I really liked by Slipknot was Iowa (the album art always freaked me out too). But yeah I would include Nu-metal for completeness sake, and crossover bands should also be given some recognition, like it or not, all these bands at one point influenced or will influence each other or some new band down the line.
As Slipknot though. I used to be into all those bands back in the 5th grade, the only album I really liked by Slipknot was Iowa (the album art always freaked me out too). But yeah I would include Nu-metal for completeness sake, and crossover bands should also be given some recognition, like it or not, all these bands at one point influenced or will influence each other or some new band down the line.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
thegaresexperience said:
They should be included for completeness sake, but they should be cast off into some blackened dark region of the map
.Disagree on Nu-Metal influencing new bands though. Very few acts who put themselves in an already established metal sub-genre take any inspiration from the grunge/hip-hop inspired works of Nu-Metal. Partly because they would be ostracized for it, and partly because it simply is not anywhere near as popular as it was, it peaked in the early 2000s.
Metalcore bands have taken Nu-Metals place as the genre that rides the line and causes the most debate.
You wouldn't call it a minority, i wouldn't call it to popular in the mainstream media, but that doesn't matter.Bal-Sagoth said:
And that matters what exactly? I would hardly call it a minioirity either. Some of the sub-genres are but traditional heavy metal bands have always enjoyed world wide mainstream popularity. Invalid point is still invalid, who would honestly care what an R&B or Pop fans opinion on metal is? If it pertains to metal the only opinion that matters is the fans of metal, hence the metal community.
You simply said "It's about being right or wrong" - and that's not the case. Because this right or wrong is subjective to whom you ask. Ask guys who studied music and you might get exactly the mainstream answer "Metal is a sub-group of rock, and nu-metal is a sub-group of Metal".
And it's really just about a freaking 'family tree'. You say they're 6th degree family members and should count as something on their own while other people say, they're 4th degree family members and therefore should be summed under Metal. I don't even know what's the problem with that, as there are guys who listen to both 'classical' and 'nu' metal.
You really should have mentioned Concrete instead, which landed them, as far as i know, their contract with Roadrunner, but yeah. I know where they're coming from. But than again they changed quite a lot and kept this style for quite some time (even though there where still variations after Burton came back; i still what the hell is up with them fighting so much intern, but erm that's not the topic).Bal-Sagoth said:
Well but just to be honest, i know Fear Factory better than Static-X, so maybe i just don't know Static-X enough and haven't heard their songs which sound more 'nu' or don't remember them good enoug.
-edit-
Well it's on some 'island' below the traditional metal things with other not exactly so traditional metal styles (at least i wouldn't call them to traditional - which isn't a jdugement about the quality of this) - so you might say it's the Australia of Metal, where everything is a bit strange (nothing against Australia
).thegaresexperience
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
There's good Metalcore. Shai Hulud is one band, as is Underoath and Norma Jean. With NJ and SH being the best I've heard so far and UO bringing up at close 2nd
Funny thing about the visual kei island (besides that it's labeled as a "metal genre"): a good third of the songs are from X-Japan The guys would be furious because they hate v. kei. They're most obviously a Japanese take on NWOBHM. *nitpick nitpick*
I'm also mad that one of my favorite goth metal bands isn't listed since for me it pretty much defined the genre
MDM is also horribly represented: don't list At The Gates (one of the genre founders) but list Bodom (not really MDM at all)?
The guys would be furious because they hate v. kei. They're most obviously a Japanese take on NWOBHM. *nitpick nitpick*I'm also mad that one of my favorite goth metal bands isn't listed since for me it pretty much defined the genre
MDM is also horribly represented: don't list At The Gates (one of the genre founders) but list Bodom (not really MDM at all)?
Yeah, it sucks in some categories. That's why I hope this thing gets updated.
Bal-Sagoth
Water Chip? Been There, Done That
Ausdoerrt said:
Yeah, I noticed that as well. Don't even get me started on Bodom, oh what a fall from grace they have had.
Have you seen the tracks on the new CD coming out?
No. Title Lyrics Length
1. "Not My Funeral"
2. "Shovel Knockout"
3. "Roundtrip to Hell and Back"
4. "Pussyfoot Miss Suicide"
5. "Relentless Reckless Forever"
6. "Ugly"
7. "Cry of the Nihilist"
8. "Was It Worth It?" 4:03
9. "Northpole Throwdown"
10. "Party All the Time" (Eddie Murphy cover)
Are those seriously not the most homosexual song titles you have ever seen? Northpole Throwdown conjures up images of a barechested Santa battling frost giants. Or sodomizing elves, not sure which one yet.
The vocal work and riffs on the demo they released are just absolutely terrible. It is hard to imagine the same band that gave us Follow the Reaper and Hate Crew Deathroll are reduced to what they are now.
That being said I am very anxious to hear the cover of Party All the Time, I mean honestly, that just sounds magical.
Non-metal covers can work extremely well.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-7yRJwN2s[/youtube]
Dr. Combat Shotgun
First time out of the vault
Just stop whining and listen to Enochian Crescent, everyone.
Well, the short samples for Shovel Knockout actually sound pretty good. But of course, we won't really know until we hear the rest of the song (and album). Frankly, I'm more excited for new albums by Moonsorrow and Samael that are coming out around the same time.
Finnish BM, yuck. Also, not br00tal enough. Listen to Ungl'Unl'Rrlh'Chchch.
Yup. Although frankly, even though it looks pretty cool, I think they've sacrificed quite a bit of functionality in favor of "cool design", which makes the map reeeally confusing to read at times. Rather, I wish someone did a similar thing, but designed it as a sort of genealogical tree - like sth that shows up for a bit in that Headbanger's Journey movie.