Mentally challenged gods?

Discussion in 'General Gaming and Hardware Forum' started by Sorrow, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    Baldur's Gate? Was it that game where a cretin and a genius got the same dialogues, all which were written for someone with intelligence of 8?
     
  2. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    No, the game where you are the Child of Bhaal and posess the basic ability to speak, whatever your stats are.
     
  3. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    No, it's because Children of Bhaal can't be retards due to their divine blood. It's hard for a God to be a retard - and his children are no exception.

    Not to mention it's fantasy, where there ARE no retards because of the chosen convention.

    Is it another of your half-arsed theories? Because if it is, I mourn the passing of your intellect, Sorrow.
     
  4. Sorrow

    Sorrow So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Feb 9, 2006
    :clap: Sigged!

    Speaking of passing of the intellect...
    1. Character can be a retard, because int of 3 means that it's a retard and player can create a character with int of 3.
    2. Divine blood doesn't prevent one from being a genius or at least more intelligent than you.
    3. Fantasy has stupid and genius characters.
    4. Have it ever occured to you that there are no Int/Wis checks because it would require more time and effort and someone who can actually write something very intelligent/wise?
     
  5. Madbringer

    Madbringer What is it that crawls behind the glass? Orderite

    Apr 9, 2004
    Why can't godlings be retards anyway? ;o

    One of the D&D campaigns i was dm'ing resolved around a psychotic, dull-minded goblin, that could re-shape the reality around him, and had divine heritage.

    I agree with Sorrow that it was simply sloppy design.
     
  6. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Where is it stated that an intelligence of 3 takes away your ability to speak? Don't apply SPECIAL to D&D.

    Because we all have multiple divine blooded beings running around the Earth, right?

    But they aren't present in Baldur's Gate. It's heroic fantasy, and heroes don't go "DURRR BOOBIES".

    I wasn't bothered by that in the least, primarily because I play a high-int character with an above averge wis. Which allowed me to dual-clas to a mage in BG2. Fun for the familiar!

    Because they're divine. :tired:

    Is goblin selectable as the PC's race? No, not really.

    Given the scope of the game, I prefer that they stuck to writing for generally intelligent characters rather than waste time and effort on an option that would go unseen by 95% of gamers.
     
  7. requiem_for_a_starfury

    requiem_for_a_starfury So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Apr 3, 2003
    Do what? Virtually every character creation guide I've seen recommends (except for magic users of course) dumping intelligence to raise agility and constitution. Probably just as many people play fighters and/or thieves as mages. Personally I prefer Paladins but even there there's quite often no noble choice. The only good path often ends in conversation choices, that if actually role playing, a Paladin would never say.
     
  8. Madbringer

    Madbringer What is it that crawls behind the glass? Orderite

    Apr 9, 2004
    That's not really the point. The point is, divine heritage don't mean jack shit about how smart or stupid a creature is. Divine heritage is a measure of a creature's power and stretch of abilities.

    Find me a rule that explicitly states otherwise, and i'll yeld.

    It definitely would not be a wasted effort. At the very least, it would stop people from dropping intelligence way down to 3. They could make intelligence's ground limit a 9, and make several more sophisticated dialogue options available to only very high INT characters (it was done so in Torment, and it worked good).

    Also, i'm not completely clear as to how, exactly, INT 3 would affects characters in ad&d 2nd ed. In the third edition, INT 3 characters cannot speak and are basically almost brain dead.

    Have to sift through my manuals.. dammit all!

    edit: ok, found it. Here's a direct quote from the manual.

    See? Retarded!
     
  9. I think you guys have forgotten the fact that mental-retardation and low intelligence are not the same thing. Retardation impedes normal brain function. Low intelligence is just a lack of using brain function.
     
  10. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    How often did you dump intelligence in favour of other stats in Fallout? I can, with 90% certainity, say that you played a character with at least 4 intelligence, just to get normal dialogues.

    The same would apply in BG - if there indeed were "retard" dialogue options, most players would get their intelligence/wisdom at least to a level where they can get normal dialogues.

    So basically, you claim that one exception to the general rule is enough to form a rule that "divine heritage doesn't mean jack"?

    There was not a single retarded child of Bhaal in any of the Baldur's Gate games. Enough proof that divine heritage prevents retardation.

    Though there might be exceptions to that rule. Few and far in between, just like a girl with her sister's torso and limbs attached to her is an exception in the general homo sapiens populace.

    I missed stat checks in BG, that's true. Though I always play a high intelligence character, so that's pretty much a moot point in my case. ;)

    Low intelligence, not retardation. (kudos DC)

    DC answered it better:

    Damn, I constantly forget to make that point.

    You earn a digital cookie!
     
  11. Madbringer

    Madbringer What is it that crawls behind the glass? Orderite

    Apr 9, 2004
    And how many of Bhaal's children have we seen, really? Ten, tops? Out of hundreds he spawned? Not really a representative group, to be honest, especially if you take into account the fact that you actually have to fight most of them, and fighting a drooling idiot isn't anyone's idea of heroic fantasy (i hope ;D).

    Also, don't forget that some (or perhaps, most) of the children of Bhaal were, in one way or another, mentally ill. They were megalomaniacal, psychopathic, paranoid, and inclined towards the ways of Chaos. That and some "special magic powers" is what Bhaal gave his children, not permanent "protection from idiocy". :P

    No, actually, i would say, like stupid people among normal people. Explicit stupidity is not so rare, although, rare enough to serve as a sparkling contrast to the rest.

    For the sake of the point we're discussing, i'd say it doesn't really matter. Low intelligence can be caused by a mental illness, genetic predispositions, whatever the reason, the result will be the same. A slow person is a slow person, and a slow person having exactly the same dialogue choices as a person that's practically a one-in-a-million genius (score 18 or more) IS SILLY.

    It is! Divine heritage or not.
     
  12. HoKa

    HoKa Still Mildly Glowing

    236
    Jul 23, 2007
    Grizzly are you trolling?
     
  13. xdarkyrex

    xdarkyrex Vault Senior Citizen

    Aug 28, 2006
    No hes not, lrn2internet

    thats not what trolling is
     
  14. HoKa

    HoKa Still Mildly Glowing

    236
    Jul 23, 2007
    So he's just being obnoxious?
     
  15. Tagaziel

    Tagaziel Panzerkatze Staff Member Admin Orderite

    Dec 10, 2003
    Saradush was crawling with Bhaalspawn, and you couldn't throw a rock in Throne of Bhaal without hitting one.

    I have to remind you that we're on the topic of "Divine heritage prevents retardation (yes/no)", not "Divine heritage doesn't cause any personality disorders, no sir". Because that would be a lie.

    Dude.

    In ToB we encounter an adventuring party of Bhaalspawn composed of a rabbit, a xvart and other amusing miscellanea. And if a fucking rabbit can be a member of an adventuring party, it kind of tells of the nature of the bonuses.

    There you have it.

    I never said it isn't, I also don't like the lack of stat checks.

    My point was that low intelligence doesn't hamper your ability to communicate, as being slow doesn't mean you can't piece sentences together coherently.

    Oh shut up and make me some pancakes. ;)

    Oh, and HoKa, this is a troll.
     
  16. Wooz

    Wooz Vault Sweeper Admin Orderite Board Cop oTO

    May 18, 2003
    Dude. If you've got something to add to the discussion at hand, please do so.

    If you don't, and post useless one-liners, have a nice cup.

    Right, proceed.
     
  17. xdarkyrex

    xdarkyrex Vault Senior Citizen

    Aug 28, 2006
    It's fair to say that intelligence does not correlate with speaking ability.
    There are some very intelligent incomprehensible people, and some retarded sweet talkers.

    Also, in the DnD world, 3 intelligence doesnt make you illiterate, as intelligence has very little do do with literacy in DnD. This is not SPECIAL, guys. Just because they are both called inteligence does not in any way mean that they ARE infact the same thing.

    Holy shit.
    Now THAT is trollish.
    In his defense though, I would debate over the color of a box art :oops:
     

  18. That being said, Mental retardation is still different from stupidity. And neither SPECIAL or DnD has calculated the difference. The only game in history that has would be Arcanum.
     
  19. Madbringer

    Madbringer What is it that crawls behind the glass? Orderite

    Apr 9, 2004
    Saradush was indeed crawling in Bhaalspawn, and there's mention of them here and there, but i meant, how many you meet, talk to, and who of them are depicted more in-depth.

    Touche on the "adventuring party", but this only proves that divine heritage can make a creature much smarter than an average representative of it's species, but doesn't necessarily has to.

    But it does, as proven by the manual quote! It doesn't prohibit a creature from speaking (like it is in the third edition), but it makes it talk funny.

    Since we both agree that no stat-checks = fail, i think we can bring this discussion to a closure. I still, however, am not convinced that divine heritage must automatically mean that someone cannot be a moron.
     
  20. requiem_for_a_starfury

    requiem_for_a_starfury So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs

    Apr 3, 2003
    Then you'd be wrong, I played BG before I discovered Fallout so I built my first character along BG lines, and it was hilarious. Any body who is actually into role playing would welcome different converstions for different characters but in BG race, class, sex, alignment, intelligence only seem to affect what people say to you not what you can say to them.