MMORPG Killed The RPG Star

[Tacodog89]

*Note: I believe this is the right forum to place this topic under though if it is not my apologies*

I come to you fellow gamers with this situation. In my EQ days there were many times where I took breaks and during those breaks I would play many a game, one being Morrowind. Now since this was an RPG I was excited and soon rushed into it head first. I though oo this looks great and quite fun but alas it didnt turn out as expected. I progressed along at my own pace, filled with sword fights, looting, bashing and the general RPG experenice but something was missing.

The interactivity with my fellow players, I had felt that it was lonely. Yes you may say, "But this is a single-player game of course your alone," But in my EQ times you always had those fellow gamers with you at their PC, like you are, somewhere else in the world, slashing and kicking ass as you were. You had your guild mates your friends and random strangers like you would in RL. You could talk to them about new loot, how to take down this mob or just talk to talk. And in Morrowind this was missing and well I just did not like it at all, I could not talk to someone how to solve this quest or show them this new katana I just got.

From this it seemed that the RPG experenice was not as rich as it could be, with you, the gamer, having to make up for the non-multiplayer aspect of it.

What I come to you fellow gamers to ask is, "Knowing that I probably am not the only to have felt this, do you think that

One: This will affect enough gamers on the whole to have a dramatic effect in the MMORPG/RPG Market?

Two: Are the people who experenice this in the minority and therefore have no real effect on the industry?

Three: How can the realness of the MMORPG, the ability to talk to others about the "world" compare to the one-sidedness, make-up-your-own-realness that are single-player RPG's or

Four: Did this only happen because of the entire Openness that Morrowind was and because it copied the real world as much as it could that the losing of the real player aspect was a dramatic change when compared to coming from EQ where players drive the experenice?

Thank you for your time and for your thoughts.
Peace

 

[Sander]

Morrowind was quite simply a boring and very lonely environment.

But an RPG is fundamentally different from a MMORPG, mainly because an RPG is still about roleplaying, about a main story, about plots and about interesting characters. A MMORPG is much more about cool loot and talking to other people.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

One: This will affect enough gamers on the whole to have a dramatic effect in the MMORPG/RPG Market?

I hope not.

Two: Are the people who experenice this in the minority and therefore have no real effect on the industry?

I hope so.

Three: How can the realness of the MMORPG, the ability to talk to others about the "world" compare to the one-sidedness, make-up-your-own-realness that are single-player RPG's or

A proper single-player RPG (one that is open-ended, highly interactive, immersive and well executed) belongs in an entirely different league and cannot even be compared with MMO"RP"Gs. An MMORPG is essentially an action game and can not posses any of the traits that are considered distinctively RPish. If you compare, for example, Fallout and EverQuest, you will notice that almost no parallels can be drawn between the two. Morrowind, on the other hand, is fundamentally devoid of roleplaying depth and is little more than an MMORPG without players.

Four: Did this only happen because of the entire Openness that Morrowind was and because it copied the real world as much as it could that the losing of the real player aspect was a dramatic change when compared to coming from EQ where players drive the experenice?

No. There are many excellent CRPGs that are both open-ended and realistic. Morrowind is boring simply because it is poorly made. To use it as an archetype in a CRPG vs. MMORPG debate is therefore senseless.

 

[Tannhauser]

Do you feel lonely when reading a book, or when watching a movie by yourself?

I still enjoy single-player RPGs more than MMORPGs. I see potential in the market, but as long as the average player is such a dismal creature, I fail to see the draw. I've never felt sufficient immersion in an MMORPG, mainly because of other players (and yes, while good groups exist, they seem to form the small minority; and neither am I speaking about sheer role-playing, since that also is often of a comparatively dismal quality). Basically, I completely fail to see you point of comparison (besides the fact that Morrowind made a lonely game, you can see we all make that point, it's a bad choice when used to represent RPGs against MMORPGs).

Now, my very inexpert eye on the game industry seems to notice that the industry is pushing towards MMORPGs and various derivatives. Perhaps attributed to a herding phenomenon in the entertainment industry (take reality TV shows, a few were very successful, so they pump them out by the dozens, at the expense of other genres, and most of them fail. The various networks seem unable to do anything but ape each other, typically what was most successful before). These days, MMORPGs seem to be the hot topic, and with the potential for money; publishers are more likely to invest in a MMORPG project, to the determent to other (less potentially lucrative, at least in short-sighted vision) genres. Yes this all is due to the players, but in a distant way, since this is betting on future trends based on the past (often failing to take into account what everyone else in the industry are doing), there certainly is no guaranty (how much money has been lost on games that were thought would be successful no matter what, or with mass marketing, so they could skip out on quality?).

Everything else (and partly this as well), Sander and Graz'zt have handled, certainly more succinctly than I would have phrased the same ideas.

 

[Murdoch]

Hell Kotario, just look at FOOL for an idea of the herd mentality at the expense of FO3 for all the comparative advantage argument you need.

Also I think that the idea of the constant monetary flow coming out of a MMORPG is very attractive to game producers given the hit or miss reality of stand alone gaming products.

And it is possible to find a core of people in a MMORPG to game with. I found one in WoW. The difficulty of finding such a group highlights the fact that there are so many fuckwits out there and how they outnumber good gamers. It's this paradigm that is driving the dumbing down of gaming as much as anything, imo.

 

[Tacodog89]

Thank you for your responses, and after giving it some more thought, I realize that yes Morrowind was simply put by Graz'zt

is little more than an MMORPG without players.

Because of this it lead to that missing feeling of being in a MMORPG enviroment without the players.

Now there are very good RPG's out there as Kotario and Graz'zt have said, for example Baldur's Gate 2:Shadows Of Amn, I felt very immersed in that world that had a rich story, great characters and a great atmosphere.

And as Murdoch said the dumbing down of gaming, MMORPG's in particular is quite evident in WoW, probably due to WoW being catered to the masses. As I've said to friends, EQ was a game were you had to be smart and know how to connect the dots to progress, while WoW is a game where no significent prior knowledge is needed.

It takes no significant talent, if talent is the word, to play WoW sucessfully, while in EQ you had to know what you were doing especually in PUG's, or else youd be kicked and branded as a dumbass at playing your class. Are both games fun? Yes of course they are, but the fact is while you'll encounter your share of jackasses in both games, I'm sure you'll find more of them in WoW.

 

[ratsnack]

Fable:TLC is the best RPG since fallout. Thanks PeterM!

 

[Ratty Sr.]

If PS:T, Arcanum, Bloodlines, KotOR and KotOR II are a figment of my imagination, then yes, Fable is the best RPG since Fallout.

 

[Tannhauser]

Fable:TLC is the best RPG since fallout. Thanks PeterM!

Have you played the game? I thought it was being released on the 20th?

You know, I'll be glad if Molyneux drops out of the industry. Remember the lead up to Fable on the X-Box? Where he promised all number of things that were eventually cut? The PC version is only restoring a small minority of what he originally claimed and promised for the game. Not to mention Black & White before that. He also seems to have the gaming media feeding out of his hand, since they hype his projects to an incredible degree (I still remember how all the reviewers seemed to miss the fact that Black & White wasn't any fun).

By the way, Graz'zt, you forgot Gothic and Gothic II. I really see no way that Fable: The Lost Chapters[/b] will edge out Gothic II, nor Planescape: Torment, to mention only two.

 

[ratsnack]

wow I only HOPE Kotor 1/2 are figments of my imagination because those games were wack. Gothic is terrible too, I met highschool drop outs that make better character models than that junk. If graphics didnt matter in a PC game then why not just play tabletop adventures with your girlfriend? Also arcanum is like playing Martian Dreams. Remember that? How awesome!

Bloodlines. awesome game

I thought before I said Fable is better than it (really). And although Fable inventory and skill shortcuts are far more visually unpleasing and convoluted than Bloodlines, at least in Fable the general population of the gameworld feel like real characters with everyday lives and whatnot. Bloodlines talking faces were amazing, but the rest of the people were really uninteresting. Just a bunch of dudes in red jackets. That plus perfect gameplay ported from the Xbox, helps make Fable far more engrossing than Bloodlines with its REDICULOUS load times, for crummy maps.

I am onto the new content in Fable now, added for the PC release. And it is fantastic. And the humour is great.

I hope PeterM stays because he is a crazy womanizer that belongs in this so called gaming industry. Anyway, this is offtopic.

So MMORPGs...Playing WOW and EVE made me forget that real gaming lies in the storytelling and the masterminded scenery. All I remember is waiting for monsters to respawn so I can get more exp. And eve.. You don't need to go anywhere to earn points and right to fly powerful ships.

This is my opinion and it is that MMORPGs are played by jackasses. Fallout forever!

ps: I love you

 

[Ratty Sr.]

wow I only HOPE Kotor 1/2 are figments of my imagination because those games were wack. Gothic is terrible too, I met highschool drop outs that make better character models than that junk. If graphics didnt matter in a PC game then why not just play tabletop adventures with your girlfriend? Also arcanum is like playing Martian Dreams. Remember that? How awesome!

Bloodlines. awesome game

I thought before I said Fable is better than it (really). And although Fable inventory and skill shortcuts are far more visually unpleasing and convoluted than Bloodlines, at least in Fable the general population of the gameworld feel like real characters with everyday lives and whatnot. Bloodlines talking faces were amazing, but the rest of the people were really uninteresting. Just a bunch of dudes in red jackets. That plus perfect gameplay ported from the Xbox, helps make Fable far more engrossing than Bloodlines with its REDICULOUS load times, for crummy maps.

Margaritas ante porcos. You wouldn't have the capacity of appreciating a fantastic roleplaying game if it bit you in the ass.

 

[Rev. Layle]

Fantastic is relative and subjective.

Of course, there are games that are universally crap.

Like Metalheart... i don't have the gumption to go on and play it anymore. Once I got my 5-dollar-cheaper copy of Arcanum (including shipping), played it & beat it, I was going to finish up Metalheart. Instead, I decided to make a brand new character (with a different "dicipline") and takcle Arcanum again.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Fantastic is relative and subjective.

Not really. Rattysnack here declared Gothic was a terrible RPG because of its subpar graphics and VtM: Bloodlines was a worse RPG than Fable because of loading times and "crummy" maps. That is bullshit, plain and simple. Neither graphics nor loading times have anything to do with a game's roleplaying qualities. If that were so, Fallout, Wasteland and Ultima series would be regarded as greatly inferior to Fable because Fable clearly has superior visuals.

 

[Rev. Layle]

Well I said: "Of course, there are games that are universally crap." also

Sorry, I didn't mean it to be all encompassing, but there are many good games out there that are fantastic in other people's eyes because that style of game appeals to them more.

 

[ratsnack]

Hey what are you talking about I dont know good RPGs? Where are we again?

*back ontopic*

I don't think MMORPGs Killed RPGs because they arent even in the same category. One is online Chat with 3D characters and almost all lack of engrossing plot. And the other is a linear journey through a story and setting. So wether you like Fable or Martian Dreams or Arcanum, you are after a completely different experience than a MMORPG. And developers know this and many of them have no wish to make multiplayer fagfests. So without further adoodoo, i must say, Play Fable THe Lost chapters because its got a classic dungeons hackem story, with great presentation (music, dialogue, character design, and quite entertaining side games/quests). But you already made up your mind to be grumpy :!:

 

[DirtyDreamDesigner]

You don't seem to realise that "a classic dungeons hackem story" =/= good CRPG.

 

[Tannhauser]

Ratsnack, you wonder why the RPG market is in such a sorry state? The answer is rather simple, because of people like you, who would rather purchase a 'RPG-Lite.' Pushing the industry to dumbing down RPGs, because they sell better.

Do you have the faintest concept of 'time?' Gothic was released in 2001, perhaps since that time the graphics developers have access to have improved, and gamers on average have much better computers, just maybe? Try placing it in comparison with games of the time. Let me venture to guess that you hate Anachronox as well, because the graphics are so bad?

Jesus Christ, you pan Gothic because of the graphics (which is moronic to begin with), then phrase Fable for something Gothic does much better (that whole "general population of the gameworld feel like real characters with everyday lives and whatnot" thing). That's only the first in a long list of sins.

As for your latest post (which proves equal to your previous efforts), how is singing the phrases of Fable: The Lost Chapters (which is still a RPG-Lite) "back ontopic?' It's also pre-emptive to declare the RPG genre dead, much less "killed" by MMORPGs. Finally, don't blame us for being "grumpy," I can assure you, the problem lies with someone else here.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

*ding, ding* We have a winner!

*hands Kotario a medal of honor*

 

[ratsnack]

Continue to pat yourselves on the back for such a great effort to create more subgenres of RPGs. RPG LITE? Dumbing Down RPGs? What exactly is it that makes an RPG good? Last time I checked was an awesome story and somewhat nonlinear gameplay? Am I missing some attraction to jogging around numbers to somehow personolize my avatar? You keep saying I have no clue what a good RPG is and you guard the truth like its your greatest treasure? Please share with me what makes an RPG a great Extinct beast that all must appreciate who wish to embark on surreal journeys. Seriously what is so great about Gothic? You must think by graphics I mean how hight res the poly model is? Or how shiny the chrome is? Because new technology has not offered designers a SENSE of beauty and aesthetics of the presentation. In 2001 I remember NNights, Elder Scrolls, Dungeon Seige, were a LOT better made.

Of course we all like different parts of games for personal reasons or reactions and I expect people to say I am wrong because I like "action rpgs." Look I love fallout, but lets face it Turn Based combat is way too time consuming when you can just bind some keys to your stimpaks and ammo, and suffer the vulnerability of having to use them during the combat. KOTOR did one thinig right, the ability to pause gameplay. I guess that made it less an Action RPG for people like you. So, just because you have to hack some monsters in Fable during one of their scripted attacks, I don't think it degrades the Role Playing part of the game. I know you will play it once it comes out, so you can all have a solid base of arguement about Fable VS the past couple of RPGs to come out for PC.

 

[Tannhauser]

Idiot (what else can be said? You didn't get a single date right).

Neverwinter Nights: 2002

The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind: 2002

Dungeon Siege: 2002

Now, in comparison (because it came out the same year).

Gothic II: 2002

Let us not forget the original Gothic, with it's complete lack of beauty and aesthetics. I think the armor design is a perfect example, so generic and flavorless:

Unfortunately, that's only the start to addressing your stupidity (really... you didn't get the year right for a single game!). I'm not really inclined to go any further right now.