Moral Ambiguity

K

Karimi

First time out of the vault
I guess its time to add my two rat pellets to the bonfire that is FO3 criticisms.

- Spoiler alert -
Let me start by saying I hated Oblivion. I wanted to enjoy FO3, and in all honesty, I did...until about 1/2 way through the main storyline. Once you found your father you could pretty much waltz through the game in two hours, four if you spilled something on your keyboard.

The enclave bits were short , the storyline was pretty much a quick FO2 redux. Then the end, and here is where my 85 % becomes a 55 % percent. I played this game because I wanted to experience a world, and up to that point they had done so relatively well. It wasn't Fallout, but it was never going to be.

-====-

What made Fallout for me was that it was a setting in which everything was relative . You weren't good, you weren't bad, you decided what you were. The Karma system was the first sign that this wasn't going to happen but I figured it simplified it rather than completely undercut it. I was still hoping that in the end you could see the results of your actions.

Lets look at Megaton, I had genuinely deliberated over the consequences of defusing the bomb. If I did, would the cult leave ? Would Megaton die as a result ? If I didn't , what would happen ? I unfortunately measured my actions based on what I THOUGHT would happen. In the end I didn't get so much as a "By the way, megaton didn't blow up, thanks".

I don't want to be told I'm good, I don't want to be told I'm bad. I want to be told what happens and decide for myself. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, I wanted a Fallout where you defuse the bomb in Megaton and the town dies off because the cult leave. I wanted a Fallout where helping a town makes them more vulnerable to future attack because they can't defend themselves.

I wanted a Fallout where I was a force for change, not the deciding factor. So, tell me Bethesda, what happens after I decided not to kill Harold ?
 
Karimi said:
I wanted a Fallout where you defuse the bomb in Megaton and the town dies off because the cult leave. I wanted a Fallout where helping a town makes them more vulnerable to future attack because they can't defend themselves.
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Speaking of the cult in Megaton, there were numerous hints given by various NPCs (such as Moira when asking why she hasn't considered defusing the bomb herself) that suggest it might anger the cult or destroy the object of their belief (and its purpose).
But nothing happens, the annoying ingrate festering away in the radiated water surrounding the bomb still stands all hours of the day babbling away and nothing much else happens.

An incredibly lackluster aftermath to the disarmament of the weapon, at least everyone is reduced to ash when you blow the damn thing up providing some semblance of a consequence.
 
There are some quests where you make a choice and have different outcome. Some are even interesting and worth replaying to see both ways. They are better than the shallow and rushed mainquest.
But overall - yeah this game is not providing you much in a way of choice/consequence.
And the karma distribution makes no sense in many cases
The ending IS a joke. But unfortunately, Beth`s humor is http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5641/aboutbethde7.jpg
 
The quickest way I can think of to make a game morally ambiguous is to make quests that end in negative repercussions no matter how you solve them. Each player would simply think they choose the wrong answer/path until replay, when they realize that a game can actually be designed that makes you think.

Below is the story of my Tenpenny Tower experience as a case against the game.

[spoiler:545bf10ce3]

1. Arrive at tenpenny, see mutant outside that wants in. Hello mutant. Hello Tenpenny... what's that you say... oh yes, I am good, as my meter indicates. Oh, you hate ghouls... that's... erm.... ok. What can we do? Kill them? Oh yes, let's see what I can do. Kill Tenpenny w/ VATS. Sherrif takes over with no other changes. Hello Sherrif... what's that you say... oh yes, I am good, as my meter indicates. Oh, you hate ghouls... that's... erm.... ok. What can we do? Kill them? Oh yes, let's see what I can do. (Can't kill sherrif w/ witnesses).

2. Go to sewers. Kill bad (sick?) ghouls. Talk to good ghouls... what's that you say... oh yes, I am good, as my meter indicates. Oh, you hate Tenpenny. Me too, that's why he dead. Oh, that's irrelevant to anything? Well, what can we do? Kill them all? Oh yes, let's see what I can do. (With no intention of killing them.)

3. Go to Tenpenny. Talk to sheriff, find out about sewer, go to sewer. Locked... wait for sherrif to sleep. Sneak up and steal keys. Detected. Mesmatron sherrif w/ VATS. Guards kill sherrif. I take sherrif's stuff. Go to basement. Now ghouls think I am letting them in to kill everyone for some reason... erm... ok. Run inside, kill bad ghouls/rescue tenpenny people.

4. Quest borked/unresolved.

Seriously, Mesmatron is awesome. I could make a career out of finding mesmatron bugs in this game. GODDAMNIT BETH.

[/spoiler:545bf10ce3][/spoiler]
 
The bomb worshiping nut annoyed me to no end. I decided to follow him to his bed and punch him with some spiked knuckles. End of problem and only a little karma lost. Nobody was mad because I did it quietly and they weren't looking. =]

[spoiler:41ad123f3e]You might want to read the mesmetron instructions more clearly. That is the intention.. it can do one of three things:

A. Head explodes.
B. Hostile to everyone.
C. Dazed.

Most NPC's with names will always have either A or B happen. There is very little chance you can daze an important NPC. I think this is so that you can't get rid of important people. At any rate, if you want to get rid of someone then shoot them with the mezzer and if they're not dazed, then go run and hide...

Every time I try to mez a stronger character (like a city guard or one of those assassins) their head usually blows up or they go crazy and shoot their own people. If nobody seen you shoot them then the scenario you described seems all too likely. =P

As for you killing the ghouls.. well you pretty much killed off both parties and you expect a reaction? From who? [/spoiler:41ad123f3e]
 
[spoiler:d4f8675ebe]Uh yeah the mesmatron is great stuff, indeed. In one game I happened to get to Paradise Falls, before I did the Big Town Quests. I decided to do the slavery quests. So upon meeting Red, I mesmatroned her and send her off to Paradise Falls. Directly from being prisoned by Super Mutants into slavery.
Shorty I rescued normally. So back in Big Town I get greeted like a hero and everyone is looking at me in awe and hope. But the Quest doesn't progress. So I look at my Quest Log. Still says 'rescue red'. Okay... so I look at the World Map. The waypoint of the Big Town Quest is directly in Paradise Falls, the new home of Red.
Beth should have spend more time on scripts for the quests, then on that stupid waypoint-system.
Then I clubbed everyone in Big Town to death with my sledgehammer.
Oh and you can talk Flash in Big Town into attacking you, and when you kill him you don't get negative Karma. Haven't noticed a loss of Karma for talking him into attacking you, either. Oh and nobody in Big Town cared. Did it in broad daylight in front of the whole town *cough* *cough*.[/spoiler:d4f8675ebe]

[spoiler:d4f8675ebe]Oh... and is there any satisfying way to end the 'Blood Ties' Quest in a bad way? Haven't tried that yet. But I mean... I like 'intelligent evil' ways to do things... not 'just kill everyone without a specific reason'.[/quote][/spoiler:d4f8675ebe]
 
The lack of moral ambiguity is part of a bigger problem that has a lot to do with the absence of script deepness and irony in F3.

I think Beth purposedly minimized these features because they don't sell.
 
Sebastiano said:
The lack of moral ambiguity is part of a bigger problem that has a lot to do with the absence of script deepness and irony in F3.

I think Beth purposedly minimized these features because they don't sell.
Click to expand...

or because they cant do them well? tennpeny-ghouls and 'blood ties' quests have rather crappy or nonsese resolutions (ie kill Ian - Arefu folks becom hostile. See discussion in 'Karma' thread)
 
Best thing that could be in Fallout 3 is Miria and her Father...

1.Conversation...No sex...
2.Wedding...still no sex...
3.Miria dies...
4.Telling bad news to dad...
5.Dad gets heart atacke...
6.Destanation Reno Cat's Paw :)

Too bad there arent many thing like this in F3 or Bishop daughter if you sleeped with her at end game credits it was mentioned she was pregnant if i remember right... :)

I know it was only text no actual action but still funny as hell...
 
The best moral thing FO3 should have, is an ability to have sex with everyone, by a dialogue.

Of course, without stupid Mass Effect like scenes. The "screen goes black" would work just fine.

But Beth haven't thought about it, that's why IMO it's the biggest "Moral Ambiguity" in the game.

PS: Imagine getting Miria drunk to have sex with you :P Or persuade her to, in a different way.

PS2: Imagine convincing Moira Brown to have sex with you, so you can get lower prices from her. Everyone probably would never consider doing this, but hey! this is Wasteland! A tough, and hard place to survive :P
 
Public said:
PS: Imagine getting Miria drunk to have sex with you :P Or persuade her to, in a different way.

PS2: Imagine convincing Moira Brown to have sex with you, so you can get lower prices from her. Everyone probably would never consider doing this, but hey! this is Wasteland! A tough, and hard place to survive :P
Click to expand...

Funny thing i remember you cant sleep with Miria but you could sell her for 5 caps so she plays in Golden Gloobs in new Reno but she wont sleep with you...kinda wired...

About Moira Brown well this would be funny...or this Buttercup in Big Town hehe i had some laughts 4 guys in town and she sleeped with 2 and raped 1 Timebomb when you talk with him ofcourse first you have to heal him he says he had wired dreams :)
 
The very first time that Bittercup opened her mouth and started speaking, I immediately closed the dialogue window and shot her in the face.
 
so that bittercup emo girl... there seems to be a dialogue tree, righ? I tried all possible lines - it ends the same fucking way, no matter if you insult her or compliment her: she asks if you`r in relationship and then no matter your answer says "I gotta be going, come visit me sometimes"
And I play as a GIRL. If thats not lame/lazy design I dont know what is... And its not the only example of a usless dialogue/npc in this game.
 
Was it in MGS where someone said "there is no choice, only the illusion of choice"? It might have been. Or maybe it was the Matrix.

Anyway, it's very applicable to FO3. Your choices at char creation seem to have very little impact on the way the game plays. Your choices in dialogue always seem to lead you to the same outcome. Your actions throughout the game have no bearing whatsoever on the ending.

Where are the meaningful choices? :/
 
Erny said:
so that bittercup emo girl... there seems to be a dialogue tree, righ? I tried all possible lines - it ends the same fucking way, no matter if you insult her or compliment her: she asks if you`r in relationship and then no matter your answer says "I gotta be going, come visit me sometimes"
And I play as a GIRL. If thats not lame/lazy design I dont know what is... And its not the only example of the usless dialogue/npc in this game.
Click to expand...

I had the same thoughts when I tried every fucking way, to get something more from her. But NO!

I finally was thinking "Oh yeah, maybe I can hit on her, or flirt with her?" But NO! The girl is asking you "Are you with someone?" and that's it. What should I do Todd? Imagine that I had sex with her or what? Ignore that my character is still a virgin :P
 
k9wazere said:
Was it in MGS where someone said "there is no choice, only the illusion of choice"? It might have been. Or maybe it was the Matrix.
Click to expand...

I like the other Matrix quote better: "You are not here to make the choice, but to understand WHY you made the choice."

Could lead to reflection on why Beth is lazy, or what is wrong with the gaming market, but who cares =)
 
Public said:
PS2: Imagine convincing Moira Brown to have sex with you, so you can get lower prices from her. Everyone probably would never consider doing this, but hey! this is Wasteland! A tough, and hard place to survive :P
Click to expand...

This would work with a pre-requisite of having drunk at least a dozen vodkas beforehand. And your char commits suicide after the morning-after dialog.

:barf:
 
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