More Melee Weapons

[Bosk]

What the game really needs is a full-sized, petrol driven Chainsaw.

 

[TorontoReign]

Most petrol has ran out. Unless you have a methane powered one. Don't know how probable that is.

 

[Tagaziel]

Out of curiosity, just how much blacksmithing do you do?

I do a decent bit of metal working.

There are a couple of ways to make a long, straight, edged weapon, which for convenience we're going to call a sword.

The one most people are familiar with is buy blacksmithy or forge work. In this method a blacksmith heats a piece of steel until it is at workable temperature then uses a hammer, anvil, and various other tools to shape it into a shape that you would recognize as a 'sword'. The weapon is then finished by having a handle and guard affixed. The surface of the weapon is polished with various stones and files, and the edge is sharpened.

The second method of making a sword is by a process called Stock Removal. In stock removal the bladesmith begins with a piece of iron or steel that is roughly the right size. A common source of high quality steel is the leaf springs used in vehicles. A single car may have as many as a dozen leaf springs, each of which is a bar of very, very high quality steel.

The bladesmith shapes the blade without heating it at all using a variety of hand files. Power tools may be used if they are available. And, in desperate situations, it is possible to grind a blade using a piece of concrete or rock. I have personally witnessed someone grind a razor edge into an old garden tool with a piece of concrete and proceed to shave hairs with it.

Having shaped the blade, the bladesmith is now ready to finish the blade. Since the steel used was manufactured to the very highest standards it is already of very high quality and requires no further finishing. The bladesmith can affix a handle and sharpen the edge, and the sword is complete and ready to use. A skilled bladesmith can produce beautiful and well balanced swords by this method. At the same time, simple, brutal, effective swords can be produced in a matter of hours with appropriate tools.

Notably, stock removal can be used for any kind of blade one wishes to make, within reason. This includes longswords, knives, daggers, axes, spears, pole arm blades, arrow heads, javelin heads, and eating or working knives. It is open to debate whether a blade made by stock removal can match the properties of a forged blade, but for day to day military or defense use a stock removal blade is a perfectly good alternative to a forged blade.

So, there is your entirely too long, probably unwanted explanation of stock removal.

In the wasteland there is an abundance of steel to be had. Also there are widely available small, portable power sources. Small Energy Cells and micro-fusion cells are not rare. Moreover, if those are not available then more mundane technologies like solar, nuclear, steam, or coal power are available. Any of these technologies could be used to power a complete machine shop. Moreover, with plenty of pre-war tech and gear to scavenge you wouldn't even have to fabricate things from scratch!

But why should they manufacture swords if axes and spears are much more useful?

 

[FrankManic]

But why should they manufacture swords if axes and spears are much more useful?

Short answer? You can't really defend yourself with an axe. most fighting axes are too top heavy to use effectively on the defense. Spears can be awkward to carry, especially if it's a back up weapon. It's also awkward to maneuver in tight areas. If your main weapon is a rifle you'll have to find somewhere to put that 8, 9, or 10 foot long spear. And if you're fighting in a sewer or a vault or the ruins of a building and something comes up behind you, you'll have to figure out how to turn that big, long spear around so you can stab whatever it is.

Swords are also useful for clearing brush. You can parry and defend yourself effectively, and with a shorter sword or a sword that can stab as well as cut you can use it pretty handily in a close area. Swords also have some prestige value.

I'm not saying people wouldn't use spears or axes. I'm saying people would use spears AND axes AND swords AND knives AND Machetes AND clubs AND maces AND picks AND tomahawks AND whatever else they felt like.

 

[chipk]

Machetes, sabers, dirks and large knives would be more common place. Hell, up here in DC we got MS-13 and their weapon of choice is the machete.

Personally, I would immagine a nuclear apocalypse would send us back to the wild wild west era. I would find a nice sharp Katana to be very useful, and Hell. I got enough to pass out to my neighbors. I'm pretty sure swords and bows would make a nice arsenal if ammo is scarce.

 

[madcaddie]

Nah Katanas can't handle armour at all.

 

[P R Deltoid]

Snip!

Not going to temper it?

 

[TheRatKing]

I doubt that the population of the wastes would really have the skills to make swords, I hear it is incredibly hard. Axes on the other hand can be used for clearing brush, chopping wood, swinging at radscorpions, and other situations.

 

[Psyckosama]

I doubt that the population of the wastes would really have the skills to make swords, I hear it is incredibly hard.

Actually, its not. A sword is in essence just a really big knife. It just takes some practice to get right, which these guys would be getting plenty of. Most 'swords' would probably be short, poorly balanced Machete/Cutlass/Falchion like blades designed to be easily mass-produced hacking weapons/tools.

 

[TheRatKing]

Yeah I see where you're going with this. Short swords are the way to go. My earlier posts I was talking more about katanas and such, which would be much more difficult.

 

[Psyckosama]

Yeah I see where you're going with this. Short swords are the way to go. My earlier posts I was talking more about katanas and such, which would be much more difficult.

Yeah. Most sword will be the guy and his giant 2ft choppin' knife he uses to cut the head off molerats.

 

[madcaddie]

Most petrol has ran out. Unless you have a methane powered one. Don't know how probable that is.

Does petrol even exist in Fallout 3?? Seriously this is what a fission battery is for.

 

[madcaddie]

I doubt that the population of the wastes would really have the skills to make swords, I hear it is incredibly hard.

Actually, its not. A sword is in essence just a really big knife. It just takes some practice to get right, which these guys would be getting plenty of. Most 'swords' would probably be short, poorly balanced Machete/Cutlass/Falchion like blades designed to be easily mass-produced hacking weapons/tools.

A sword is more then a knife, I admit its easy to make a really big knife but to make a sword in the classical sense with the properties one associates with a sword is not easy (Hard edge with a soft core that will bend) is far from easy and is an art.

Google sword making techniques and you will see what I mean and before anyone claims kantanas are superior to western swords due to the folding of the metal hundreds of times this was only done due to the low quality of steel Japan historically had access to and are well know for not being able to handle armour historically (Chinese Bamboo Armour was able to stop a Kantana).

Now saying this anyone with a forge can make a sword provided they have the knowledge the question is would it be viable for someoe to have this knowledge in the Wasteland?? I personally think the anwser is yes, particularly factions such as the BOS.

 

[Misanthrope]

Someone out there is making ammunition and almost everyone has the ability to repair things as complex as tactical nuclear payload launchers.

Forging is like many other technologies something we have lost because of technology, not lack thereof. In the middle ages many people knew how to cast and mold metals and in many poor places throughout the world it is still practices with varying forms of efficiency to create everything from pots to weapons to jewelery etc. All of the technology is there -- hell, all you need really is a fire and some durable containers and you can fashion yourself a sword or other object.

Problem is in FO3 there are many inexplicably advanced weapons and objects and few low-tech varieties. Modern assault rifles are commonplace while things like home-made rifles or grenades, scrap swords or clubs etc are almost non-existent.

 

[Dubby]

Natural Gas still exists, and considering the abundance of military soldiers on the fields when the bombs fell, and the importance of soldiers carrying an all-purpose military axe, such axes would be nearly as common as the combat knife. There is a variety of designs, but they all utilize a very simple principle that makes them -very- easy to mass produce. The entire weapon is a single piece of molded steel, and the cutting portion is simply ground out of the base form with a carbide machining drill. It's simple and very effective. The United States military does not require soldiers to carry a combat axe, but there are no regulations (that I am aware of) against carrying one. They're much more useful in situations than a regulation combat knife, and are designed to be effective as both picks and throwing weapons. This is a basic combat axe.

 

[MirariNefas]

Someone out there is making ammunition and almost everyone has the ability to repair things as complex as tactical nuclear payload launchers.

...

Problem is in FO3 there are many inexplicably advanced weapons and objects and few low-tech varieties. Modern assault rifles are commonplace while things like home-made rifles or grenades, scrap swords or clubs etc are almost non-existent.

This I think is the real reason why forging wouldn't fit in the game as it is. Why go through a great amount of effort to craft a chopping weapon when the world is littered with assualt rifles? Adding more melee weapons needs to be done in tune with a reducation in advanced weapons. We need a sense that technology really is degrading.

As a tangent, someone needs to mod in some kind of ammo production facility. Some old factory being run by raiders or some blacksmith/scientist putting black powder in shells. Because I see the damn mutants sure burn through a lot of minigun ammo and I'm at a loss on where they're being supplied from.

 

[FrankManic]

There is nothing mystical, magical, or special about a sword. There is no deep and mysterious way of the sword. There is nothing special about swords. Any long, thin piece of metal that is intended to be used to kill people and that you don't feel comfortable calling a knife is a sword. It doesn't matter if it's made out of the cheapest pot metal in the world. It doesn't matter how ugly it is. It doesn't matter if it breaks the first time you hit something with it or lasts until the end of days. It's a sword. And if you're alive at the end of the fight and the other guy is dead then it's a good sword. And that's the end of it. No classical styles, no folded steel, no crap about the amazing tank killing katana. Just sharp metal and blood.

 

[Bosk]

This I think is the real reason why forging wouldn't fit in the game as it is. Why go through a great amount of effort to craft a chopping weapon when the world is littered with assualt rifles? Adding more melee weapons needs to be done in tune with a reducation in advanced weapons. We need a sense that technology really is degrading.

As a tangent, someone needs to mod in some kind of ammo production facility. Some old factory being run by raiders or some blacksmith/scientist putting black powder in shells. Because I see the damn mutants sure burn through a lot of minigun ammo and I'm at a loss on where they're being supplied from.

The manufacture of primitive weapons would make sense if firearms were much harder to come by in the wasteland, which if you think about it would probably be realistic.

Take the brotherhood - I always felt that one of the reasons they were so keen on hoarding advanced technology was that it meant fewer people outside their own ranks wielding the same level of tech as themselves, hence increasing their technological advantage (and thus safety) over the rest of the wasteland.
This was (IMO) the primary reason why they felt the Enclave was such a threat.

It makes sense that in a post-apoc environment any group intent on establishing power would hoard resources and prevent their enemies/rivals from doing the same.
In the modern world one could argue that money is power, but in the wasteland I think it's fair to say that guns & ammo would be far more valuable than bottlecaps.

Therefore, I believe any decent sized faction be they Brotherhood, Enclave, Raider/Gang or whatever would be doing their utmost to hoard weapons and old tech, thus forcing up barter "prices" on assault rifles and whatnot and thereby making the producing of both melee weapons and jury-rigged firearms (eg. pipe rifles) a worthwhile endeavor for faction unaligned wastelanders.

 

[Slaughter Manslaught]

I don't like Swords in Fallout, I prefer seeing machetes. Much better.
Spears would be very good, too. But it seems Bethesda thinks that Spears are for nazis or something. I would like to be able to thrown a spear, too.

Most petrol has ran out. Unless you have a methane powered one. Don't know how probable that is.

PFFFF!! Petrol? Methane? Pah! Meet the Fusion-Powered Chainsaw! Just add a micro energy cell and hack away to your heart's content! When the ripper is too small for you, get the Fusion Saw and be happy!

 

[Rhenalt]

The real thing that I'd like to see is a bayonet.

You have a solid, long bladed knife good for slicing and stabbing. Get an assault rifle or a hunting rifle and you have simple spear as well as a convenient way to take care of rats, wild dogs, and raiders without wasting ammo. I can see this being more effective than a sword in many respects (weight being just one), and many modern assault rifles come complete with bayonet lugs.

As for swords, machetes, and the like, I used to be a blacksmith at an 1890s "living history" museum. I've made several forges and the like, though since I've moved to the suburbs that particular hobby has moved to the wayside. If anybody has any questions involving that, feel free to PM me or ask in the thread. I don't want to get too into swords, but I'll tell you this as a person who has spent years worth of time immersed in pre-electricity technology; blacksmithing is easier than you'd think. The most important bits, especially with lots of scrap iron to work with, are temperature control and tempering. Both of these can be learned with a lot of patience and time to practice.

I would be fully expect there to be a thriving blacksmith/machinist business booming in the Wasteland, but I would expect most of the time being spent making things like nails, custom pieces to fix weapons (it takes years of experience to do delicate work, but when it comes down to it a blacksmith will be a gunsmith in a pinch), and that sort of thing. I doubt close range weapons would be a priority.

That said, a good axe, particularly one with a hammer head on the rear, would make a brilliant general purpose tool for someone spending a night out in the wilderness. Being able to chop fuel and rig up temporary shelter is key, and I think that would take priority over a long bladed slicing weapon.

Well, looks like I'm going to talk about swords a little anyway, just to say that I'd rather carry a hammer, spike, or axe with a composite handle (even a steel handle in a pinch). More useful and, close range fights usually come to who hits first over a complicated dance.

Rhen