Name reasons you thought Fallout 3 was better than New Vegas

[Gizmojunk]

It annoys me that in Fallout and Fallout 2 radiactive goo glows green. Not realistic and immersion breaking.

It's a color that means, "Don't Touch"; and I seem to recall the choice being quite intentional...but I've forgotten the exact reason.

*It's a typical enough B-movie style appearance for a dangerous atomic sludge; and I think, partly humorous.

 

[Norzan]

It annoys me that Caesar himself in New Vegas is set up within sniping and artillery distance from NCR territory yet they don't attempt either of these things despite being both desperate and capable of doing so.

There are constant Legion scout parties in the surrounding areas of the Legion fort and NCR is running low on resources. Another reason for that not happening is because the NCR and Legion at that point are in a stalemate, just waiting for what the other will do. That's why they are not constantly attacking each other's major locations because they are saving soldiers for the inevitable Hoover Damn battle.

Even killing Caesar wouldn't change anything (they say this ingame) because Lanius would just replace him and the Legion would continue.

And no one will come to Fallout 3's rescue because there's absolutely no way to explain most of the stuff in Fallout 3. If they just bothered, just a little, even to give some vague explanation to how the world even works, i wouldn't be so critical of the game. But they didn't bothered.

That quote is actually from here, re-posted on the other forum. I wrote it .

Yeah, you also posted that in the thread that mfkjackass posted in the RPGCodex asking if people still rank F2 over F3. That's where i took that quote.

 

[Risewild]

I was never trying to imply that contradicting your own story isn't a problem. It is, and Fallout 3 does it a lot. I just think the significance of the issue gets exaggerated. People are often far less impartial and forgiving to a game's wrtiting when they dislike it for other reasons. The reverse is also true.

It annoys me that in Fallout and Fallout 2 radiactive goo glows green. Not realistic and immersion breaking.

It annoys me that the Gun Runners in Fallout are set up literally right next door a Deathclaw nest. Unrealistic and stupid behavior.

It annoys me that Caesar himself in New Vegas is set up within sniping and artillery distance from NCR territory yet they don't attempt either of these things despite being both desperate and capable of doing so.

Yet if you try to point any of those things out, people will be quick to provide an explanation because they actually like the underlying games. Nobody ever comes to Fallout 3's rescue however, since it largely dropped the ball on being a role-playing game.

Again, I'm not trying to say small immersion breaking details aren't problems. Just that when comparing them to games that have similar flaws, it's a little unfair. Anybody could go over Fallout, Fallout 2, and New Vegas with a fine enough comb or a small enough microscope and pick out things that annoy them. People just love to do it with Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 because those games infamously hated (with good reason).

I don't see your complaints as nitpicking though.
If people are quick to provide an explanation for those things, it means that the games offer some kind of way to offer an explanation. But Fallout 3 does not really offer an explanation for most of those "small" things people complain about.

For example I know why some things you complain about are like that in the classic Fallout games and FNV, I could be quick to explain why they are like that. But that wouldn't make them less bad for you. What I can't do is explain why Fallout 3 has most or all of those things I complained about in my previous post. And I play Fallout 3 regularly, and I did had fun playing it (but would have had more fun if the game didn't had all the small problems that really annoy me).

Also about "games with similar flaws" and "go through the other Fallout games with a fine comb". The problem here is that you would have to go through the other games with a fine comb (Fallout 2 is an exception), but in Fallout 3 you don't need that. It is all there straight in the players face mostly for no reason except "because".
Also everyone knows that Fallout 2 is full of stupidity, and I don't know many people who would try to excuse that stupidity (many even hate Fallout 2 because of that). But the Fallout 2 we got is not the Fallout 2 that Black Isle wanted to make, it is the Fallout 2 that they were forced to make in six months (actually 9 month IIRC, but Interplay counted the 3 months Black Isle was just trading ideas for a Fallout sequel before Interplay told them to actually make a sequel, as past of the development) while many people were leaving the company during the production of the game. Which is important to note, because Fallout 3 is the game Bethesda wanted and had all the time to make.
I am making this distinction because while Fallout 2 is full of stupid stuff, it was forced to have that stupid stuff, but Fallout 3 is full of stupid stuff but that was what they intended from the start. And I point out again that I don't know many people who wold try to explain Fallout 2 stupidity either.

Now, does this means that people who enjoy Fallout 2 and/or Fallout 3 are bad people? Of course not. Tastes are different. I like Fallout 2 and I enjoy Fallout 3 (specially with the improved engine and stability of FNV), I also like Fallout and Fallout New Vegas, the one I didn't enjoy at all was Fallout 4 because I can't get into FPS games.
I have nothing against people who have fun playing Fallout 4 either, or that don't like Fallout 1, 2, 3, NV.


Now, this is not relevant to the discussion. But I will post it here because I think it is interesting.

They picked green for the radioactive goo because that was the color of pretty much every dangerous radioactive material in all the entertainment in the past (books, comics, movies, TV series, etc) and because they had to come up with a color that would stand out and be immediately associated with danger. All using a 8bit 256 color palette:

 

[TerminallyChill]

Yet if you try to point any of those things out, people will be quick to provide an explanation because they actually like the underlying games.

Exhibit A:

It's a color that means, "Don't Touch"; and I seem to recall the choice being quite intentional...but I've forgotten the exact reason.

*It's a typical enough B-movie style appearance for a dangerous atomic sludge; and I think, partly humorous.

Exhibit B:

There are constant Legion scout parties in the surrounding areas of the Legion fort and NCR is running low on resources. Another reason for that not happening is because the NCR and Legion at that point are in a stalemate, just waiting for what the other will do. That's why they are not constantly attacking each other's major locations because they are saving soldiers for the inevitable Hoover Damn battle.

Even killing Caesar wouldn't change anything (they say this ingame) because Lanius would just replace him and the Legion would continue.

Exhibit C:

They picked green for the radioactive good because that was the color of pretty much every dangerous radioactive material in all the entertainment in the past (books, comics, movies, TV series, etc) and because they had to come up with a color that would stand out and be immediately associated with danger. All using a 8bit 256 color palette:

I was being hypothetical. I actually like the green goo, and none of that other stuff really bothers me. Thanks for proving my point, though.

I truly get what everyone is saying about Fallout 3's stupidity being a result of the developers lack of respect for the source material. It's logic and inconsistency problems are worse than just about any game in the series outside of Fallout 4. But they aren't that much worse if you really want to split hairs. People just want to believe they are because the game mechanics are that much worse. The development philosophies were that insulting. That's literally all I'm trying to get at. I don't really like Fallout 3 either, guys. I think it's an abomination to the series just as much as anyone here. I was just trying to take off the hate blinders and look at things objectively for a second.

 

[Norzan]

And we are trying to prove that we defend F1, NV and even F2 not because we like these games, but because the devs went out of their way to give explanations to most things (less in F2 but that was already explained by Risewild).

The very first thing i did in NV was look around to see how Goodsprings even survived, after being flabbergasted with Megaton in Fallout 3 (i played both back to back). Then i saw how they get their water, they grow food like maze and they herd bighorners for fresh meat. It instantly increased my immersion to know that people in this world can actually survive. Walking around Megaton and trying to see how these people are even alive and not finding any reason to why just broke my immersion instantly.

This might not seem a issue to some, but to me immersion breaking is one of the worst things a RPG can do. It takes me out of the game.

 

[TerminallyChill]

And we are trying to prove that we defend F1, NV and even F2 not because we like these games, but because the devs went out of their way to give explanations to most things (less in F2 but that was already explained by Risewild).

The very first thing i did in NV was look around to see how Goodsprings even survived, after being flabbergasted with Megaton in Fallout 3 (i played both back to back). Then i saw how they get their water, they grow food like maze and they herd bighorners for fresh meat. It instantly increased my immersion to know that people in this world can actually survive. Walking around Megaton and trying to see how these people are even alive and not finding any reason to why just broke my immersion instantly.

This might not seem a issue to some, but to me immersion breaking is one of the worst things a RPG can do. It takes me out of the game.

Ok so let's say I want to defend Fallout 3 in a similar way. God knows why. Let's pretend they actually included traits or provided skill checks more often in this scenario.

Megaton is clearly a service economy. Moira Brown and that water guy provide help with repair and engineering. Moriarty makes money off prostitution, hotel rooms, and marking up food and booze. Moira does a similar thing with her store. They use that money to buy food from the caravans that show up in front of the city. They built Megaton around the bomb because they are religious.

You can play both sides of this coin. There is a double standard when it comes to Fallout 3's inconsistencies because people don't want to be immersed.

 

[Norzan]

Megaton is clearly a service economy. Moira Brown and that water guy provide help with repair and engineering. Moriarty makes money off prostitution, hotel rooms, and marking up food and booze. Moira does a similar thing with her store. They use that money to buy food from the caravans that show up in front of the city. They built Megaton around the bomb because they are religious.

Except none of that works. Caravans can't exist when there's Super Mutants, Deathclaws and Enclave soldiers everywhere, just casually murdering everything that is not part of their group. Caravan soldiers can't defend themselves against such odds because they have crap equipment. They made the wasteland far too hostile for people to want to go to Megaton, so prostitution and hotel rooms can't work either and if they do, they make a measly income.

In NV the wasteland is much less hostile. At worst people run into radscorpions and other minor things and people like the Vipers and Jackals have shit equipment and get easily killed. Deathclaws are confined to their own areas and there's no group of dudes with power armors murdering everything that is not part of their group. NCR is also known to protect caravans.

There's also no RENEWABLE source of food and brahmin are rare and they don't herd them. See the problems here? Bethesda didn't account to a lot of factors to make Megaton work.

The bomb is actually one of the minor stupid things, but i still criticize it for being stupid. They are actually lucky that nuclear bombs are actually quite hard to blow up.

 

[TerminallyChill]

Except none of that works. Caravans can't exist when there's Super Mutants, Deathclaws and Enclave soldiers everywhere, just casually murdering everything that is not part of their group. Caravan soldiers can't defend themselves against such odds because they have crap equipment. They made the wasteland far too hostile for people to want to go to Megaton, so prostitution and hotel rooms can't work either and if they do, they make a measly income.

In NV the wasteland is much less hostile. At worst people run into radscorpions and other minor things and people like the Vipers and Jackals have shit equipment and get easily killed. Deathclaws are confined to their own areas and there's no group of dudes with power armors murdering everything that is not part of their group. NCR is also known to protect caravans.

There's also no RENEWABLE source of food and brahmin are rare and they don't herd them. See the problems here? Bethesda didn't account to a lot of factors to make Megaton work.

The bomb is actually one of the minor stupid things, but i still criticize it for being stupid. They are actually lucky that nuclear bombs are actually quite hard to blow up.

I see all those problems. That doesn't stop people who want to be immersed from coming up with all sorts of convoluted explanations as to why that works or why the developers did it like that. Exactly how Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout New Vegas fans make shit up to cover for their own precious games' flaws. This is just human behavior, Norzan. It happens with everything. I do it with Deus Ex and New Vegas all the time.

 

[Norzan]

I see all those problems. That doesn't stop people who want to be immersed from coming up with all sorts of convoluted explanations as to why that works or why the developers did it like that. Exactly how Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout New Vegas fans make shit up to cover for their own precious games' flaws. This is just human behavior, Norzan. It happens with everything. I do it with Deus Ex and New Vegas all the time.

Except we don't make up "shit" to cover own precious game's flaws. When we can, we use in-game explanations, told by in-universe characters and when they are not explained, we just use logic from the context of the world, because most likely a character spouting the obvious wasn't necessary. Sure, i'm not gonna pretend that F1, F2 and NV don't have their share of stupid stuff, F2 is often criticized for it and NV to a lesser extent and some of that stupid stuff is not explained very well. But the devs are allowed to have some fun and adds some rather crazy quest premises to add humor to the world because being constantly super serious and dark is not fun. That's fine. As long they don't fuck up established lore. *cough*kidinafridge*cough*

But here's the thing, they are sporadic and spread out (less in F2 though) and basic things like how people even survive are explained either through dialogue, just showing or both. Fallout 3 just did too much, there's too many stupid things concentrated in a single game. It just makes me question this world that is part of a franchise that is trying to, for the most part, mimic the real world. If they just reduced this and make it more sporadic, i wouldn't be so critical.

Like, if it doesn't bother you, that's fine. But to me and many others, it does.

I think i said my piece on this subject. Kind of tired of repeating myself.

 

[Risewild]

Moira Brown and that water guy provide help with repair and engineering.

But that explanation is blown away by the game. Walter specifically says he can't leave the Water Processing plant at all, not even to fix the leaks that are endangering the entire settlement. And by hiring the player to fix those, it shows that Moira does not do it herself. The game is telling us that there is no one in the entire settlement that will fix the leaks that can ruin the entire water source. So there is no engineering. No one new ever appears in the settlement, so they don't get people from outside to come and use these services (even the caravans have to wait outside of the town).

They use that money to buy food from the caravans that show up in front of the city.

There are no caravans that sell food or water in the game though. There is a junk caravan, a weapons caravan, an armors caravan and a chems caravan. Not even one of those have any food or water in their lists.

Where do the vendors in Megaton get their products? From the caravans? But caravans do not sell food or water, so where does Megaton restaurant gets their food from? Where does Moriarty get his drinks to sell? Where does Moira get all the stuff she sells? Some could come from caravans, but she sells the things at the same price as the caravans do, so she wouldn't have any profit.

Megaton has settlers that have no job and have no house, they have to sleep in the communal house and have no caps in their inventory, so where do those get caps? The church income is by donations, but who donates and where do those who donate get their caps? Where does Walter get so much caps to buy scrap metal 10x more than in a store? Why doesn't he have an agreement with Moira to supply him with all the scrap metal she can get? I usually go to Moira, buy all the scrap metal she has at the time for 1 cap each and then walk ten steps and sell it to Walter for 10 caps each.

The game is actually showing things that prevent us from logically explain what is happening and why it happens. This is a big problem.

 

[Gizmojunk]

Nice, terrible, atrocious mentality to have. It's not like the job of these developers is to develop games. If a chef doesn't make good food, do it yourself.

Are you fucking serious?

Uhhhm... Yeah. That's progress in action. That is precisely how the Bard's Tale games came about. Michael Cranford was playing Wizardry and wanted something better. There are a lot of people that don't like to eat out, because the food is better at home.

 

[Norzan]

Uhhhm... Yeah. That's progress in action. That is precisely how the Bard's Tale games came about. Michael Cranford was playing Wizardry and wanted something better. There are a lot of people that don't like to eat out, because the food is better at home.

But the people who can't develop games on their own, most likely due to not having skill to do so, get screwed. Those people have to rely on devs to develop games and these people are the ones who basically pay their salaries, so demanding better games is not a wrong thing to do. Sure, don't be an entitled baby crying for better games, but we still have the right to ask for better games, at least in a civil manner.

So saying we should makes game ourselves if we want better ones and not ask the devs to do them is a weird to thing to say.

And when it comes from Bethesda, a company that has shown they can make good rpgs, having a string from poor to terrible RPGs games just starts to piss off people who want them to do more good RPGs like they used to.

 

[Gizmojunk]

I truly get what everyone is saying about Fallout 3's stupidity being a result of the developers lack of respect for the source material.

I think that the lack of respect was merely incidental, in that they knew what they wanted, and they changed it all to suit—regardless of the source material, or the intents behind it. They never considered making a proper sequel; they considered tailoring the skinned pelt to fit a TES template, and did whatever changes they needed to make it fit. This included a wildly skewed, and simplified re-interpretation of the setting, that bears little relation to the original... a repackaged imitation—suitable enough for the neophyte palate. Like a "food court" safe version of a reputedly spicy dish.

But the people who can't develop games on their own, most likely due to not having skill to do so, get screwed.

This is true... it's the same for those who can't build or repair their own car—or even their own bicycle.

So saying we should makes game ourselves if we want better ones and not ask the devs to do them is a weird to thing to say.

It's probably better to search for games that appeal, than to beg for appealing games. There are a lot of developers out there. Bethesda, and the like, will not (and cannot) cater to the niche audience... it won't pay them enough to run the AC. What is niche becomes relative to the cost of the work force involved, and smaller studios can afford to take chances on smaller markets.

And when it comes from Bethesda, a company that has shown they can make good rpgs, having a string from poor to terrible RPGs games just starts to piss off people who want them to do more good RPGs like they used to.

It's not the same Bethesda, and they are not selling to the same market/audience anymore. The mass-majority of players do not want an RPG—sure, they want it to be called an RPG, but what they want is virtual cosplay sims... and that's all that Bethesda makes.

 

[Norzan]

An artist/designer makes what they want, and the public buys it or they don't... they do not have a say in what the artist creates... not unless the artist asks them; or unless they actually do pay the artist for a commissioned work. In the case of a studio/developer, the artist designer is usually doing work for hire; effectively commissioned work in exchange for a salary or direct payment.

True, but straying away from what attracted their costumers in the first place can wield bad results. The devs don't have to adhere to every whim of the fanbase, but they are well advised to take it into consideration.

It's probably better to search for games that appeal, than to beg for appealing games. There are a lot of developers out there. Bethesda, and the like, will not (and cannot) cater to the niche audience... it won't pay them enough to run the AC. What is niche becomes relative to the cost of the work force involved, and smaller studios can afford to take chances on smaller markets.

Also true, but it becomes very hard to let go, specially if you have such a tight emotional bond. Specially when the other franchises similar to the one you love just don't have the same exact appeal.

The problem with Bethesda is that Morrowind was a hit and they had no reason to do with what they did with Oblivion. They could have just made a sequel that improved of all things wrong with Morrowind. But instead they just decided to dumb down nearly everything to reach a mass audience. It unfortunately paid off, but what if Oblivion was just a better Morrowind? They could have made even more money and still made a good RPG.

 

[Gizmojunk]

The problem with Bethesda is that Morrowind was a hit and they had no reason to do with what they did with Oblivion. They could have just made a sequel that improved of all things wrong with Morrowind. But instead they just decided to dumb down nearly everything to reach a mass audience. It unfortunately paid off, but what if Oblivion was just a better Morrowind? They could have made even more money and still made a good RPG.

They appear to have been refining a formula for a cash-funnel product template. Oblivion was next, and FO3, Skyrim, FO4. They are shaving away what they consider the chaff.... They don't want to make RPGs, they make empowerment fantasy cosplay sims—with vestigial RPG elements... ones that they eventually eliminate in their later games.

It would not surprise me (at all) if Elder-Scrolls 6 or 7 was a VR game with Yes/No conversations, gestural spell casting, and no skills. Trimmed down to a pure stream-of-consciousness experience; with no role to speak of... just the sandbox world to wander around, and pick stuff up in.

 

[TerminallyChill]

But that explanation is blown away by the game. Walter specifically says he can't leave the Water Processing plant at all, not even to fix the leaks that are endangering the entire settlement. And by hiring the player to fix those, it shows that Moira does not do it herself. The game is telling us that there is no one in the entire settlement that will fix the leaks that can ruin the entire water source. So there is no engineering. No one new ever appears in the settlement, so they don't get people from outside to come and use these services (even the caravans have to wait outside of the town).

There are no caravans that sell food or water in the game though. There is a junk caravan, a weapons caravan, an armors caravan and a chems caravan. Not even one of those have any food or water in their lists.

Where do the vendors in Megaton get their products? From the caravans? But caravans do not sell food or water, so where does Megaton restaurant gets their food from? Where does Moriarty get his drinks to sell? Where does Moira get all the stuff she sells? Some could come from caravans, but she sells the things at the same price as the caravans do, so she wouldn't have any profit.

Megaton has settlers that have no job and have no house, they have to sleep in the communal house and have no caps in their inventory, so where do those get caps? The church income is by donations, but who donates and where do those who donate get their caps? Where does Walter get so much caps to buy scrap metal 10x more than in a store? Why doesn't he have an agreement with Moira to supply him with all the scrap metal she can get? I usually go to Moira, buy all the scrap metal she has at the time for 1 cap each and then walk ten steps and sell it to Walter for 10 caps each.

The game is actually showing things that prevent us from logically explain what is happening and why it happens. This is a big problem.

Risewild, I appreciate you taking the time to write all this but it's really not necessary. You're preaching to the choir here. I get that these things are all stupid. I'm just trying to demonstrate how anything can be explained away by people who want to believe their particular game world makes sense.

Everyone keeps making these point-by-point deconstructions in what I guess is an attempt to prove that one game is more 'immersive' than the other. Immersion is subjective. Gameplay is not.

Fallout 3's implementation of skill checks is lacking. Fact. Fallout 3 is not immersive. Opinion.

You can dissect whatever little detail you want about Fallout 3, but you can't change the fact that average player wouldn't notice and wouldn't care.

 

[Norzan]

I'm just trying to demonstrate how anything can be explained away by people who want to believe their particular game world makes sense.

Except that's not how it works. If it doesn't make sense, it doesn't. There's no hand waving to try to explain that the game world make sense. Established rules need to exist and Fallout 3 breaks several of the ones it establishes. And several more established in the previous games.

Also, we are talking about how the world building makes no sense, not immersion. Immersion breaking is indeed subjective. I just mentioned it because it's what happens to me when any world fails to show basic things to how it even works.

I know i said i was done with this, i just wanted to address this particular thing.

 

[TerminallyChill]

Also, we are talking about how the world building makes no sense, not immersion.

Alright well in that case I agree with you.

 

[Norzan]

It would not surprise me (at all) if Elder-Scrolls 6 or 7 was a VR game with Yes/No conversations, gestural spell casting, and no skills. Trimmed down to a pure stream-of-consciousness experience; with no role to speak of... just the sandbox world to wander around, and pick stuff up in.

Given the recent Fallout 4 VR and Skyrim VR, i wouldn't be surprised. It seems they are really trying to push it as a big thing.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

Pretty relevant. It also swaps into the games' general design philosophies.

Given the recent Fallout 4 VR and Skyrim VR, i wouldn't be surprised. It seems they are really trying to push it as a big thing.

Why's that a bad thing, though? Good VR integration, I mean. It's a good step, only RE7 out of the AAA scene has really dabbled into it.