New Vegas/Van Buren continuity - Which do you prefer? How would we merge them?

[Jogre]

I definitely think ghouls should be a rare, one-in-a-million chance thing, and should only be possible in the circumstances of a global thermonuclear war (which would help explain why ghouls aren’t a thing before the war despite the bombings of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and, according to lore, Tel Aviv). The only issue with that is that everyone at Vault 12 (or at least a critical mass of them) was struck by what should be this rare condition.

I kinda think Necropolis justifies itself. If we're going through the pulp sci-fi lens, having part of the game where the protagonist finds themselves in a city filled with a new type of mutant feels exactly like the direction it should be going: It's like the adventure of the week.

IDK, I think we should view it less through the lens of mathematical probability, and more through the lens of "What works best for the setting" - And having a few cities of Ghouls spread across the US works well for that.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

I kinda think Necropolis justifies itself. If we're going through the pulp sci-fi lens, having part of the game where the protagonist finds themselves in a city filled with a new type of mutant feels exactly like the direction it should be going: It's like the adventure of the week.

IDK, I think we should view it less through the lens of mathematical probability, and more through the lens of "What works best for the setting" - And having a few cities of Ghouls spread across the US works well for that.

I suppose that works if we just don’t think about it too hard, which is fine. But it’s nice to have some vague rules in place to restrain future game designers from doing shit like “everyone became a radiation zombie after the bombs dropped so the player has plenty of zombies to shoot”. But “lore” hasn’t stopped these designers before so I guess this is a meaningless exercise anyway.

 

[Jogre]

I suppose that works if we just don’t think about it too hard, which is fine. But it’s nice to have some vague rules in place to restrain future game designers from doing shit like “everyone became a radiation zombie after the bombs dropped so the player has plenty of zombies to shoot”. But “lore” hasn’t stopped these designers before so I guess this is a meaningless exercise anyway.

I guess my response is, treating it as though it's a mathematical thing: A certain number of Ghouls appears in every location and it's purely random, kinda defeats what the games establish about Ghouls.

In Fallout 1 you find Necropolis - A City of the Dead - Where there are mutants that look like walking corpses. It's implied that maybe there are a few similar mutants in the shadier district of The Hub that Harold is assumed to be part of - But these things aren't just a universal type of mutation - The Vault Dweller goes on an adventure into this cursed city and finds these strange mutated inhabitants - They're another location and group like the Brotherhood, the Followers, etc.

In Fallout 2 - Every single Ghoul you meet who tells you their past is from Necropolis - The city was destroyed in Fallout 1, and now Ghouls are a diaspora all across California. Ghouls have a real concrete history: They have a place they were once from, a reason they are no longer there, and now they're eeking out their own existence across the wasteland - forming new societies.

If we treat Ghouls as just a matter of a dice roll - A certain number will just show up when people are exposed to radiation - We rob Fallout 1 by making Necropolis less special, and we rob Fallout 2 by making the Ghouls there have less of a real history.


As for restraints on future game designers - My view is that the restraint should be "Ghouls should have a culture and a history, and not just be a generic type of mutant" - Like I'm not necessarily opposed to new sources of Ghouls, since they're an accidental mutation - But I don't like them as just generic "This is what humans mutate into if exposed to Radiation" - I like them being a specific culture and a specific history - So new sources of Ghouls should IMO have a site of origin, and have their own culture and history like that of the Necropolis Ghouls.

 

[Golbolco]

Ghouls only coming from Necropolis is dumb and always has been.

FEV playing a part in the creation of Ghouls is dumb, but is infinitely dumber if Ghouls only come from Necropolis.

Ghouls only coming from Necropolis would be fine if Ghouls could reproduce. Never understood that particular hang-up/detail from Fallout 2, it seems to only subtract from future stories.

 

[Jogre]

Ghouls only coming from Necropolis is dumb and always has been.

FEV playing a part in the creation of Ghouls is dumb, but is infinitely dumber if Ghouls only come from Necropolis.

Ghouls only coming from Necropolis would be fine if Ghouls could reproduce. Never understood that particular hang-up/detail from Fallout 2, it seems to only subtract from future stories.

You could say the same about Super Mutants: They only come from Mariposa, and can't reproduce.

IDK, I think different groups of people having a specific context and history, and not simply being universal, is kinda good.

 

[Golbolco]

You could say the same about Super Mutants: They only come from Mariposa, and can't reproduce.

IDK, I think different groups of people having a specific context and history, and not simply being universal, is kinda good.

I think that having both groups share the traits of a singular origin and no ability to reproduce is exactly what annoys me.

It's also not apparent that within Fallout 1, Ghouls only come from Necropolis. The mutant skags from the Hub seem like they might be a type of Ghoul, to say nothing of Harold and Talius (and frankly the less said of them the better).

Even internally with Fallout 1, nothing unique happened to the Vault 12 dwellers to warrant their mutation being a one-and-done scenario. They were exposed to radiation, but not directly via a nuclear blast, which the later games seem to think is necessary to create a Ghoul (i.e. a Ghoul is born when a human survives a short but intense dose of radiation). Why exactly can't people elsewhere in the world be exposed to radiation in a similar way to Vault 12 and not become Ghouls?

The most charitable interpretation of Fallout 1 is that Ghouls (including Harold and Talius now) are born when humans with radiation damage are dipped in FEV. Vault 12 was therefore populated by humans when the Super Mutants discovered them, but they were not Prime Normal and when dipped produced suboptimal results. This is at least consistent with the weird edge cases, but is not consistent with any game or design doc published after the first.

 

[Jogre]

I think that having both groups share the traits of a singular origin and no ability to reproduce is exactly what annoys me.

It is kinda weird that we have two groups of long-lived beings that can't reproduce - yeah.

But also, I think the reason I don't have a problem with it - Is because if Ghouls are very old, like to the extent that there are people who lived long before the bombs dropped who are still living 200 years after they dropped - Having them be able to reproduce just like normal humans would kinda make them an obvious replacement to humans in the way Supermutants were meant to be - Long-lived, radiation resistant and capable of reproduction.

The "All Ghouls are old Ghouls, we're the first and last generation of our kind" stance Tycho has I feel resonates more - They are very old people, and in a sense, the ghosts of the old world still around and haunting.


Plus, I know this is paratext, but Tim Cain's explanation as to why both Ghouls and Supermutants are infertile makes sense: Ghoul's DNA is mutated in the more conventional sense - Being broken - And therefore cannot be passed on, whereas Supermutants DNA has an extra strand and is more resilient, but as a result cannot be passed on in the same way normal DNA can.

It's also not apparent that within Fallout 1, Ghouls only come from Necropolis.

It's not - But the fact that Necropolis is the city of Ghouls is what makes it meaningful.

Like - It would be kinda meaningless to say "This is Necropolis - The City of the Dead" if every city had some level of walking corpses wandering the streets.

to say nothing of Harold and Talius (and frankly the less said of them the better).

Why? Harold and Talius are just kinda unique mutants that were created in a way separate to other mutants.

I don't see the issue with that - Like having a few mutants who are similar to other types of mutants - but biologically unique, and with unique origin stories is kinda cool. It makes Mutation more chaotic.

Even internally with Fallout 1, nothing unique happened to the Vault 12 dwellers to warrant their mutation being a one-and-done scenario. They were exposed to radiation, but not directly via a nuclear blast, which the later games seem to think is necessary to create a Ghoul (i.e. a Ghoul is born when a human survives a short but intense dose of radiation). Why exactly can't people elsewhere in the world be exposed to radiation in a similar way to Vault 12 and not become Ghouls?

I agree with it not being a one and done scenario.

But also - I like the idea that the types of Mutants you encounter aren't just uniform across the entire Wasteland.

Like - Why should every group of people that's exposed to radiation turn out the exact same way and with the exact same traits? If you had it so it was like - This city was nuked so it's inhabitants were turned to Ghouls, and this city was nuked so it's inhabitants were turned to Ghouls, and this city was nuked so it's inhabitants were turned to Ghouls - Like "Ghoul" was just the generic type of mutation that occured with radiation

1. That would make Ghouls seem less special - Meeting the Ghouls in Fallout 1 is less memorable if Ghouls are literally the most generic type of Mutant around
2. It also makes Mutation - Something that's inherently chaotic - More uniform and less innovative.

Like, for the second point - Think of it like this: When Ghouls were introduced in Fallout 1, they were this totally new type of Mutant made for this game - They were something totally unique that the player had never seen before. Now in every subsequent game they've become something generic - The default type of mutation that humans go through.

I would rather it if it was like - This city was nuked so it's inhabitants are now Ghouls, this city was nuked so it's inhabitants are now underground dwelling mutants who barely look human - This city was nuked so it's inhabitants now have big arms, and crag like pincers - This city was nuked so it's inhabitants are these strange tentacled creatures, this city was nuked so it's inhabitants are now slime-like creatures, etc., etc.

Like if we're populating the world with fantasy races, why does it have to be the same exact three ones everywhere you go? There are Humans, Supermutants and Ghouls in California, and Humans, Supermutants and Ghouls in Washington DC. The world would feel more unique if Radiation resulted in lots of different types of localised mutants - So the result of what happened to the people exposed to it was different depending on where you were.

This is at least consistent with the weird edge cases

Again - Why do Harold and Talius need to follow concrete rules?

There being weird edge cases where it's unclear what specifically they are is good - Mutation shouldn't be a consistent thing.

The Master is a weird edge case - He was dipped in FEV and became this lovecraftian horror - A mass of flesh made out of multiple bodies. Same with Centaurs - What are Centaurs? They're these masses of walking flesh that are the result of just dipping a bunch of unrelated shit into the Vats and seeing what happened

Supermutants are the result of perfected FEV - Before the Master I imagine FEV just produced a bunch of weird incoherent monsters, and Talius and Harold are just the last of those.

Harold and Talius not fitting any specific mould, but being their own unique edge cases is a strength not a weakness.

 

[Golbolco]

Again - Why do Harold and Talius need to follow concrete rules?

The fact that they both exist and Harold was--until the tree--physically typical for a Ghoul already implies they're not an edge case. If only Harold or Talius existed and not the other that would be one thing, but they both exist, and they're identical in Fallout 1 to Ghouls. I think it's a pattern.

The Master is a weird edge case - He was dipped in FEV and became this lovecraftian horror - A mass of flesh made out of multiple bodies. Same with Centaurs - What are Centaurs? They're these masses of walking flesh that are the result of just dipping a bunch of unrelated shit into the Vats and seeing what happened

The Master is a unique exposure case, but so far there's no reason to believe that the circumstances that mutated him couldn't be replicated. On the contrary: because the Master and Centaurs are both composite mutants, I think it can be argued that Centaurs are closer to the Master than Super Mutants are. The Master might be classed as a super-centaur.

 

[RoosterCole]

I do know that Tim Cain recently said something about ferality being caused by losing the ability to renew brain cells or something. Not sure if I entirely agree, but hey, he’s the boss.

The death of nerve endings in the brain is mainly what causes dementia.
I think of it like this: some feral ghouls don’t interact with anything. Others are more aggressive and attack you because of the pain. Then some have some sanity if you walk close to them, they might talk to you.
People with dementia, what they say has meaning, even if it seems random at first. I remember a story where a care worker said that a patient kept talking about wanting to go to a particular school. Then he found out the school was a real place. So he said to the patient that he was too old to go back to school now. After that, the patient stopped talking about it and actually became more social.
So I think we should have crazier ghouls who might talk about a school they used to attend, or mention old friends or family members and you can reply.

I once theorized that perhaps ghoulism is not exactly this get-out-of-death-free card it’s portrayed as, but that ghouls require serious medical attention in order survive the early stages of transformation, after which presumably the condition “stabilizes”. Meaning that a place like a Vault would be able to support a ghoul population in the early aftermath of the Great War. Or perhaps that a ghoul is at an even greater disadvantage than a normie when it comes to gathering food, water, and shelter. Either way, this would mean that ghoulism is in fact very common, but the vast majority of them would perish after the war anyway without the resources a place like Vault 12 can offer.

This reminds me of Hisashi Ouchi the most irradiated man, exposed to 1,700 rads. He was able to live for 83 days only because of intensive medical attention.

I think ghouls should be rare.
A number of chaotic factors and pure luck are what create them. Things like the amount of radiation, how their body mutated, and if they received medical attention would increase the chances.
Even then, not every ghoul ends up with immortality, a healing factor, or radiation resistance. The transformation isn’t instant, it’s a painful process that can take days, weeks, or even months.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

the death of nerve endings in the brain is mainly what causes dementia
i think of it like this: some feral ghouls don’t interact with anything others are more aggressive and attack you because of the pain then some have moments of sanity if you walk close to them they might talk to you
the people with dementia what they say often has meaning even if it seems random at first i remember a story where a care worker said that a patient kept talking about wanting to go to a particular school then he found out the school was a real place so he said to the patient that he is too old to go back to school now after that the patient stopped talking about it and actually became more social
so i think we should have crazier ghoul might talk about a school they used to attend or mention old friends or family members and you can reply

reminds me of hisashi ouchi the most radiated man with 1700 rads was able to live 83 days only because of the medical attention

View attachment 36391
i think ghouls should be rare
number of chaotic factors and luck only created them like the amount of radiation and how they mutated the medical attention will increase the chance and after that how the ghoul is mutated not every ghoul will have immortality or the healing factor or the radiation resistance and the process isn't instant but a painful days weeks or months

All I have to say to this is please start using periods because these run-on sentences are difficult for me to make sense of.