NPD-sucks

[Jebus]

That's a pretty long rant defending your German-ness towards another German, you know.

 

[Turnip]

Ashmo, somehow is right, one should not forbid patys just because they do not fit in the worldpicture one has got.
But i have to say I still think that the NPD should be forbidden, since
They talk about that Germans should get a home-benefit against people who are not born German when someone has to get a job, or i therms of social services. And (i do not know whether this was in the program of the NPD of the country, or the program of the Schleswig-Holstein NPD) that all people from other countrys eventually should be thrown out.
This is discriminating, and against German law, why should someone who has lived in a country for some years, be treated like a second class human?
Maybe I am a bit sensible at this point because many people I know are not Germans, but nonetheless.
And saying that they are to small to change anything, does not count, since people (more than now) someday (very unlikely, but it could happen) could be stupid enough actually to vote them, and then some people are going to regret they didn`t try to stop them.
And gaining a majority wouldn`t justify the things they plan, if Hitler had, had majority his actions wouldn`t be justified by this either, would they?

 

[Ashmo]

That's just typically German behavior. We always end up defending ourselves. Must have something to do with the overall fucked-upness of our society resulting from certain past events.

 

[Turnip]

Justify?
As far as I see you did not attack me, it was just another point of view you presented, wasn`t it?
Only thing I`m saying is that I do not like your opinion, not justifying.
Shit, I`ve done it again.
Let us at least agree on the fact that the NPD is stupid, believing that a isolationistic state would solve Germanys problem is plain stupidity.

 

[DJ Slamák]

Ashmo's rant is quite right. Unfortunately, I'd say. But then again, some things should never be too easy.



By the way, I'd just like to add that "Sudetenland" never actually belonged to Germany (with the obvious exception of 1938-45).

 

[Bradylama]

I love you Ashmo.

They talk about that Germans should get a home-benefit against people who are not born German when someone has to get a job, or i therms of social services. And (i do not know whether this was in the program of the NPD of the country, or the program of the Schleswig-Holstein NPD) that all people from other countrys eventually should be thrown out.

Its discriminatory, sure. But unless they're discriminating against citizens that weren't born in Germany and not just immigrants, I'm not sure how much of a case you have.

 

[Turnip]

Der ausländische Bevölkerungsanteil muß aus dem {no I've not, the NPD has} deutschen Sozialsystem ausgegliedert werden. In weiteren Schritten ist eine Abkehr von der Globalisierung herbeizuführen. Dies erfolgt durch Stärkung der heimischen Wirtschaft, Unabhängigmachung von ausländischen Finanzmärkten und Rückführung der hier lebenden Ausländer in ihre Heimat.

Its from the NPD page of Schleswig-holstein, the term used is ausländische Bevölkerungsanteil, which can be translated as "foreign part of population", I do not know if this includes the children of foreigners or not.

 

[Bradylama]

Foreigners could be just a foreign element that hasn't attained citizenship yet. Sure, people may associate the Turks as a foreign group, but they still have Citizenship, and are German.

Unless the NDP makes any specific examples, you're stuck in a semantics trap. =/

 

[Turnip]

This is from the NPD page for Germany

In zahlreichen Städten bilden sich Ausländerghettos, in denen die deutsche Restbevölkerung zur Minderheit im eigenen Land wird.

In many cities, foreignerghettos appear, in whose the german population still present, becomes a minority in its own country.

Since i changed from Schleswig-holstein to the whole of Germany i do not know how valid this is, but i do not think that the foreigners children count as part of the german population still present.

Edit: spelling

 

[Member of Khans]

Stop that "OMG the NPD is unconstitutional" bullshit.

Hmm... I never said NPD is unconstitutional, Ashmo, nobody here does.
I just wrote that Verfassungsschutz totally fucked it up and so the court had no other option but to declare it for unconstitutional. If it is or not, still the court has to decide.
Maybe I should have made it clearer.

So stop calling it a democracy and call it a republic because that's what it is

Who called it a democracy? I wasn't doing so, but I have to admit that I haven't known the difference until now.

but banning fascist ideology is a fascist thing to do...fascist movements

Er, there never was fascism in Germany.... German national-socialism was analogue to Italian fascism, but it wasn't the same.
To call it fascism too was a 1950s left-wing idea 'cause "national-socialism" contains "socialism" and socialism could only be a positive thing

The moment we discriminate any political ideology by changing the constitution we destroy the fundamental ideas the constitution is based on and that is freedom and society.

Seconded.

In fact I think, that Nationalism is a attitude I have to accept and deal with -even if I think it's completely moronic- just for the reason I think of myself as a tolerant human being -not to mention freedom of speech and political affections..
(and I still think the NPD is not just nationalistic but also stepping into neo-nazism... but I don't want to discuss this at all - or at least not in English)

Yes, anti-semitism is bad, but it's hardly worse than any other discrimination, otherwise you're discriminating non-semites too (besides, most anti-semites don't have anything against semites in particular, they just hate Jews for some reason or another).
If you're homosexual and get beaten up by a gang of neo-nazis it's as worse as if you're getting beaten up for being an Israeli or believing in Judaism.

Or beaten up by Arabs cause you're Jew, by Jews cause you're a Moslem, by racists cause you're black/white/red/yellow/(enter color here)...
Hmm... I've already written smth. about that *searches*

You cannot go to jail for being a Nazi. But you may get beaten up by me, just for being a Nazi

That isn't correct... it had to be: You can be beaten up by me, just for being a stupid, ignorant moron of damn racist - doesn't matter if you're a nazi at all, or just a stupid dumbass who thinks he's better than other people cos of any hereditary characteristic, may it be your race, your 20 points of IQ or your significant too small weiner.
Anyway... call me if you're doing so and need some help.

Do we have any legal basis to descriminate political parties supporting unconstitutional ideas?

Artikel 21
(1) Die Parteien wirken bei der politischen Willensbildung des Volkes mit. Ihre Gründung ist frei. Ihre innere
Ordnung muß demokratischen Grundsätzen entsprechen. Sie müssen über die Herkunft und Verwendung ihrer
Mittel sowie über ihr Vermögen öffentlich Rechenschaft geben.
(2) Parteien, die nach ihren Zielen oder nach dem Verhalten ihrer Anhänger darauf ausgehen, die freiheitliche
demokratische Grundordnung zu beeinträchtigen oder zu beseitigen oder den Bestand der Bundesrepublik
Deutschland zu gefährden, sind verfassungswidrig. Über die Frage der Verfassungswidrigkeit entscheidet das
Bundesverfassungsgericht.

Yes, we actually have.

That's just typically German behavior. We always end up defending ourselves. Must have something to do with the overall fucked-upness of our society resulting from certain past events.

Mhh… sad but true.
Damn it, I’m defending myself right now.

Sure, people may associate the Turks as a foreign group, but they still have Citizenship, and are German.

Nope.
Most are no Germans. Laws changed in the last years, so the second generation (=born in Germany) can get citizenship, but for first-generation immigrants it isn't very easy to get. (Germany in no immigrant-nation... not yet)

In zahlreichen Städten bilden sich Ausländerghettos, in denen die deutsche Restbevölkerung zur Minderheit im eigenen Land wird.

In many cities, foreignerghettos appear, in whose the german population still present, becomes a minority in its own country.

That is why NPD is imo full of shit

 

[Bradylama]

Er, there never was fascism in Germany.... German national-socialism was analogue to Italian fascism, but it wasn't the same.

Fascism is when all aspects of government are controlled and regulated by an individual, or small group of elite. While they don't necessarily have to operate all parts of government, they still retain a final say in all matters.

That is, practically, what Germany was in the early 1940's. People were afraid of Hitler because he HAD that power. The party rhetoric may have been socialist nationalism, but in all practicality, it was fascist.

 

[Sander]

Fascism is when all aspects of government are controlled and regulated by an individual, or small group of elite. While they don't necessarily have to operate all parts of government, they still retain a final say in all matters.

That is, practically, what Germany was in the early 1940's. People were afraid of Hitler because he HAD that power. The party rhetoric may have been socialist nationalism, but in all practicality, it was fascist.

No, that's a dictatorship or oligarchy.

Fascism is a lot more elaborate, mostly characterized by the elevation of body over mind, an emphasis on traditional roles in society, a strong belief in a hierarchical leadership structure, usually with a strong personality at the head. Also the elevation of one's own people over others tends to be a characteristic of fascist societies. There are some more characteristics, wikipedia has a nice article about this.

 

[Jebus]

Fascism is when all aspects of government are controlled and regulated by an individual, or small group of elite. While they don't necessarily have to operate all parts of government, they still retain a final say in all matters.

That is, practically, what Germany was in the early 1940's. People were afraid of Hitler because he HAD that power. The party rhetoric may have been socialist nationalism, but in all practicality, it was fascist.

No, that's a dictatorship or oligarchy.

If it truly is a system where all aspects of government are controlled and regulated by an individual, I'd call it totalitarianism over dictatorship, though.

[/nitpicking]

 

[Bradylama]

Governments can be totalitarian without having a single head.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarian
The concept of Totalitarianism is a typology or ideal-type used by some political scientists to encapsulate the characteristics of a number of twentieth century regimes that mobilized entire populations in support of the state or an ideology. According to these historical approximations, totalitarian regimes are more repressive of pluralism and political rights than authoritarian ones. Under a totalitarian regime, the state controls nearly every aspect of the individual's life. Totalitarian governments do not tolerate activities by individuals or groups such as labor unions that are not directed by the state's goals. Totalitarian regimes maintain themselves in power through secret police, propaganda disseminated through the media, the elimination of open criticism of the regime, and use of terror tactics. Internal and external threats are created to foster unity through fear.

In summary, Totalitarian governments control practically all aspects of a citizen's life. Fascist governments, however, are always authoritarian, but not necessarily totalitarian.

 

[Jebus]

From that same link:

Still, one can reasonably argue that all totalitarian systems do seem to necessarily require the presence of a living human absolute leader at all times and do expect a certain type of guidance for nearly every aspect of life from that leader. Regardless of whether or not a newly installed leader of a totalitarian regime may happen to possess a certain natural charisma or not, the totalitarian system seems to tend to attempt to systematically impose this charisma onto the leader.

 

[Ashmo]

It was a rant. I wasn't really replying to anyone in particular but rather to the general topic.

Sorry for that.

 

[Jebus]

It's allright Ashmo: I'll allow it.

 

[Turnip]

It was a rant. I wasn't really replying to anyone in particular but rather to the general topic.

Reading the post one more time, it is realy obvius,
please forgive me for being that stupid.

 

[Ashmo]

It was a rant. I wasn't really replying to anyone in particular but rather to the general topic.

Reading the post one more time, it is realy obvius,
please forgive me for being that stupid.

What did I say about appologies? See?

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Screw you, Jebus