OC- Living Past Apocalyse-

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Better Pyro. Thanks for the rewrite.

My single bit of advice- you are killing zombies a bit too easy. When you do the story is more Shaun of the Dead than Dawn of the Dead, know what I mean?

This is still a horror thread. The psychological aspects are important because horror often involves a question of individual change or metamorphisis into something alien. But horror is also external- the unexplainable or imporbable nature of fate, bad luck of chance, the notion of something that defies our natural expectations but which can do horrible things to you.

This is why I think Lovecraft can be so good. The notion of human beings stuck in an incomprehensible world in which terrible things are out to do awful things to you.

SO much better.

But your character should be careful as he's slamming the stumbling zombies about. Fast movers (as in 28 Days Later or the recent Dawn of the Dead) are also about.

Also, according to the Zombie Survival Guide- zombies are also a heck of a lot stronger than the average person because the lack the human restraint to utilize all our strength and are more impervious to pain of overexertion.
 
I agree with Welsh. Pyro, I am warming to the internal conflict you have going on with your character but the ease with which you have been laying waste to the zombie hordes just seems a bit to fantasy hero like for a horror thread.

I checked out your re-write and I think it is a definite improvement. I like the way you are going with this but if you can, try to tone down the Arnie element you have going on.

All of our characters are scared shitless, and I don't want to badger you by saying, look at us and copy. That would be rude and unfair of me. I just think you can get a better feel for the style we are going for - Horror, a bit of action sure, but horror is the main theme. I wasn't sure about writing about an average Joe - Welsh knows that I love playing badass characters but I am thoroughly enjoying writing about how a normal guy deals with a lethal catastrophe on this scale and I am looking forward to exploring how he develops and learns - as I have suggested in my last post, after a while Joe becomes a bit of a hard man who knows how to take care of himself but at day one he can only barely restrain himself from hiding in a hole.

Sorry, if I seem harsh, I don't mean to. I like your new post and your style is improving with practice. Keep it up, buddy.


Also, Welsh's comment about strong zombies makes sense. Remember the Bruce Willis Unbreakable, he doesn't have super strength but he lifts all those weights. It isn't because he is strong it is just because he can't injure himself by over-exerting himself or damaging his muscles = he is able to use every ounce of his natural strength without any detrimental effects. Well thought of Welsh, I like it.

Anyway, sorry I haven't posted IC but I have a massive piece of Contract Law coursework due in soon and I have needed to do research and after looking a computer screen all day, doing again on here to write is a bit too much for my eyes to handle.

This whole things is still looking good though and I am enjoying it thoroughly.

Catch you later.
 
Hmmm you both bring up really good points as to how I seem to be doing this.

So far the zombies that my guy has killed have been mostly singles or in very small groups.

Imagine that you are walking down a four lane street with little obstructions to your view, and are as alert as can be. Now you see a shambling idiot over there just kinda walking towards ya. Wait till he gets within say six feet and land a swing to the head. They wouldn't even try to block, they are undead.

But you are right. I have thought to myself a few times how to make a challenge for my character. Maybe a tunnel I have to pass through or a new type of fast zombie that hunts in packs similar to wolves. Or if given some freedom even a few monsters like in resident evil (NOT THE MOVIE) to spice up the combat and fear aspects.

I am a person in real life who accepts just about everything with stoic responsibility. If a terrorist was to hit my school I would rush him. If a nuke hit I would duck and cover, and assuming Id live Id try to organize a new township. To put it simply, My guy just goes "Huh look at that....Walking death....Well no use running like a bitch lets kill it and burn it's corpse."

But I understand what you guys are saying. Right now I have a good chapter in the works for my next post and I intend to make it kick ass. Did anyone else see my character get knocked unconscious by a priest? That will turn out pretty cool just watch.
 
Nice post Reaper. I like the problems with the pistol especially and the multiple car accidents. I had actually expected you to get to the police station to find it to be the site of a mass feeding frenzy.

I am just thinking that the knowledge that "bite leads to zombie" based on movies was a bit hokey. Also, in America, the engine is covered with "the hood" (also a nickname for gangsters." Last thought, while I agree that a person bitten will turn into a zombie, this usually takes awhile.

For example in Night of the Living Dead, the little girl in the basement takes a while to turn, and she's really damn small. Likewise in most zombie flicks the person usually goes into critical condition and dies eventually, but normally this process takes a few hours.

I think a rule of thumb- the bigger the bite the quicker the transformation. But always the person dies first then comes back.

If you wish to edit, you might want to give the zombie's bite of the big guy a bit more substance. For instance, a zombie that is able to dig into the man's abdomenal region would cause an injury that would be significant (imagine someone chewing your intestines) as well as allow the quick turn around that is important to your story.

Pyro- I think what Reaper is getting at is that while we might think of ourselves in one way, when the event actually happens, we might suprise ourselves.

It is that behavior- the way we might actually respond to something horrific, terrifying or just bizzarely abnormal, that is the heart of good horror. While the human mind is quite capable of handling things we normally incounter in our natural life, it is when we encounter the supernatural that things get weird.

The violence, blood- responds to the basic human fear of violence done to them. In a sense we live with the notion of individuals as people of moral character, not really thinking of them as the bundle of messy organs that exist under that skin. When one gets under that skin, revealing the bloody mess that is human existence, many of us are horrified at this revelation of truth.

That notion can be expanded to how we interact and our expectations of life. We have a notion that when the dead are dead, that story is over. Here you have a case where not only are people being horrible broken open and consumed, but those that have been horribly killed are return to avenge themselves as those of us that aren't quite there. The purpose of the universe has suddenly changed and you have gone from being the top of the food chain to most favored dish.

In that sense- the notion that something horrible has happened, that your life is existence is threatened, that your notions of what reality is no longer applies- that influences the psychology of supernatural horror.

Aa thriller is nothing more than being scared of your mortal demise, horror says that there are worse things than your mortality but your understanding of your place in the natural world no longer is valid.

Imagine a person of devote religious belief who suddently discovers that the Bible was really just the clever PR of a evil malicious and despotic God.

Imagine a person of science suddenly coming to understnad that the real nature of the universe is really supernatural magic done for dark purposes.

That which you know to be believe or even take for granted, your logical understanding of the nature of the world, has suddenly been displaced by something you cannot fathom and which seems capricious, arbitrary and insane. Worse, this something means to do dark and disturbing things to you.

Horror is not just fear or being scared, it is an experience that threatens your understanding of self and the world, thereby undermining your own sanity.

In that sense, I liked your last post quite a bit. The uncertainty of the moment, the notion of the priest as being a hold over to other ideals, the questioning of his own purposes and the horror of realizing that he's adapted- all good stuff.
 
Thankya Welsh I thought you'd notice the priest and his symbolism.

I guess you are right about the sheer difference of things from normal causing mental paralysis or terrific fear.

I myself have seen a ghost and I must say that I had a lot of trouble with motor coordination at that particular moment.

And I guess you are right as well about the zombie thing. Although I'm mildly freaked by corpses I'd say it would be more than a lil worse if they stood up and lunged for your neck.

But you forget the adaptability of humanity. Within the first or second time of exposure the mind would correct it's sense of logic and reality to adapt towards the new threat or anomaly. In that sense when my character saw his first zombie outside his door he closed it in a form of unnacceptance, and his mind changed drastically by introducing a second personality in order to compensate.

In one of your posts you speak of your character beginning to see those that enjoy the killing of zombies, and indeed some would break down as such. But any psychologist will tell you that winning is euphoric, and surely there aren't many bigger ways to win than surviving.

Thoughts, comments?
 
I agree with much of what you are saying.

What our characters are generally dealing with is an intense war-scenario in which they are locked in mortal combat with an undead and overwhelming adversary, in which even slight injury can lead to death. Furthermore, our characters are generally alone, without the notions of comrades or the cohesion of miitary units. Those that we fight are inexplicable- the dead walking, and their goals are unknown.

That's pretty freaking horrible.

As for how humans deal with this. I read a nice piece on post-traumatic stress disorder coming out of World War 1. Generally, every war that people have gone through have led to some types of post-traumatic stress disorder. I think Keegan wrote an article saying that the amount of time that soldiers could handle being on the front was measurable in days. After that came psychological breakdown.

From the Department of Veterans Affairs-

Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD, is a psychiatric disorder that can occur following the experience or witnessing of life-threatening events such as military combat, natural disasters, terrorist incidents, serious accidents, or violent personal assaults like rape. People who suffer from PTSD often relive the experience through nightmares and flashbacks, have difficulty sleeping, and feel detached or estranged, and these symptoms can be severe enough and last long enough to significantly impair the person's daily life.

PTSD is marked by clear biological changes as well as psychological symptoms. PTSD is complicated by the fact that it frequently occurs in conjunction with related disorders such as depression, substance abuse, problems of memory and cognition, and other problems of physical and mental health. The disorder is also associated with impairment of the person's ability to function in social or family life, including occupational instability, marital problems and divorces, family discord, and difficulties in parenting.
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Furthermore-
About 30 percent of the men and women who have spent time in war zones experience PTSD. An additional 20 to 25 percent have had partial PTSD at some point in their lives. More than half of all male Vietnam veterans and almost half of all female Vietnam veterans have experienced "clinically serious stress reaction symptoms." PTSD has also been detected among veterans of the Gulf War, with some estimates running as high as 8 percent.
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Consider that actually very few soldiers are actually in combative services, and that at least the soldiers have had some forms of training before hand, imagine the consequences on most people in a "Dawn of the Dead" type world.

Essentially, most of us would go bugshit looney. If not initially than over time.

A Call of Cthulhu scenario- No Man's Land, involves an encounter with the Cthulhu mythos during the battles of the Ardennes during World War 1 and discusses the types of mental neurosis that soldiers were likely to experience. If I get the chance I will post on that. Some of it is bizzare. All types of bizzare phobias and delusions.

And remember, soldiers often experiences PTSD very quickly. If you read oral history of soldiers at the front you see the slow breakdown of who they were into what they become. The human mind rarely just adjusts to the experiences of wartime, but is significantly changed.

Many studies have shown that the more prolonged, extensive, and horrifying a soldier's or sailor's exposure to war trauma, the more likely it is that she or he will become emotionally worn down and exhausted. This happens to even the strongest and healthiest of individuals, and often it is precisely these soldiers who are the most psychologically disturbed by war because they endure so much of the trauma. Most war heroes don't feel brave or heroic at the time, but they do their duty, despite often feeling overwhelmed and horrified, in order to protect others.

It is, therefore, no surprise that when military personnel have had severe difficulty recovering from the trauma of war, their psychological difficulties have been described as "soldier's heart" (in the Civil War), "shell shock" (in World War I), or "combat fatigue" (in World War II). After World War II, psychiatrists realized that these problems usually were not an inborn mental illness like schizophrenia or manic depressive illness but were a different form of psychological dis-ease that resulted from too much exposure to war trauma. This form of psychological dis-ease is known as "traumatic war neurosis" or Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Although most war veterans are troubled by war memories, many were fortunate enough either to have not experienced an overwhelming amount of trauma exposure or to have immediate and lasting help from family, friends, and spiritual and psychological counselors so that the memories have become manageable. A smaller number, probably about one in twenty World War II veterans, had so much war trauma and so many readjustment difficulties that they now suffer from PTSD.
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It is not surprising why the generation that fought World War 1 was considered the lost generation, why so many veterans after World War didn't speak about their experiences or those after Vietnam found sollace in drug addiction or psychiatric help. I remember reading an article during the D-Day rememberance in which one US veteran of the D-Day assault spent the rest of his life in the area of Normandy with his French bride. He spent most of his life in memory of that day and the trauma led him to abuse both his wife and his child. Some traumas we never get over and the ways we deal with them are violent and unseen.

Now imagine, for our characters, there is no retreat, so sanctuary, no going home, no family and friends, the loss of stable social connections, and the constant fear that your enemy never sleeps and is constantly out to get you. Under that kind of constant stress, most of us would either quickly or slowly slip into madness.
 
Let me also add another element about the psychological nature of horror. Horror succeeds best perhaps when it challenges our existential beliefs.

It raises the notion that our universe is fundamentally beyond human understanding and irrational- ideas that basically underscore both man's faith in science (and thus the ability to understand the world through logic) or his faith in religion (and his ability to understand the universe through either spiritual awakening or devotion to faith). Worse still this irrational and meaningnless universe clearly finds man either irrelevant or consumable.

Ok, according to NO Man's Land Cthulhu scenario (always a good source for nuttiness), among the types of insanity-

Temporary Insanity-
Catonia
Delusions (imagine for instance, friends eatingthe steaming dead, or the entrails of a friend writhering forward an attacking like snakes)
Frenzy,
Zombification- most common battlefield neurosis where the mind basically short circuits in the face of the overwhelming prospect of imminent death
Hysterics
Stypefication.

More long-term insanity-
Amenesia, Hysterical Affliction (in which a soldier is physically disabled but there is nothing wrong with the organs- hysterical blindness), Catanonia, Criminal Psychosis, Paranoia, Phobias, Shizophrenia, Obsessiveness, Addiction, Tremors, Multiple Personalities, Shell Shock.

Then think about the numbers of suicide and problems of guilt. An interesting note is also the high levels of suicide, alcoholism and other issues that accompany people who regularly witness trauma. Many war correspondents are die, either because they become too aggressive and reckless or due to suicide.
 
You say Weslsh that there is no retreat, sanctuary,going home, etc. with the jist of it being that the old reality is gone and this is the new one.

What says the human mind can't rapidly learn to accept it's new reality.

If I were to kill people all day long in videogames, what would say that if the need arose I couldn't easily emotionally unattach myself from killing a zombie.

Thats what it comes down to in surviving an unpleasent situation such as combat, or crime scenes or rape. Emotional detachment. The ability to pull the trigger without care of a person or his history, and just the knowledge that five dollars worth of chemical components is about to be recycled into the planet.

Animals are stalked in the wild constantly. Never knowing yet always sensing immediate danger.

If you were in the zombie world couldn't you just find a locked area to get to and then imagine the moans as blowing wind. similar to the way people who live by traffic block out the noise of passing cars. After this it wouldn't be hard to sleep if you had a sense of security.

Although we as humans are incredibly fragile sensitive beings you mustn't forget the unparralled adaptability of the mind.

Things only scare until they are understood. It doesn't take long to realize that the MG-42 up that ridge isn't so much a threat as it is a psychological tool. once this is realized it can be neutralized.

If you learn that you are being chased by walking retards with high thresholds for pain, it is easy to find a liquor store with a steel security gate and close it to go to sleep in the back room with the door locked and a gun on the table next to you.

Thoughts? Comments?
 
I, for one, am very intersted. I'll read this as soon as I can and possibly add my own. But if I do, take note that I'll probably write in 3rd limited instead of 1st like you guys are.
 
Pyro, I think you're right to say that humans adapt. But I'm not willing to trust how far and whether that adaptation leads to some forms of insanity, paranoia, whatever.

You might fall asleep in the drugstore, but what would you dream? If you are isolated from people for long enough, what kinds of delusions might you acquire? What kind of anti-social habits might you adapt because when you see people you think of zombies?

Even if a person gets used to the sound of traffic, what happens when you take them somewhere quiet? They often have trouble adjusting to the lack of sound.

Is a deer that lives in the wild paranoid, fearful?

Perhaps the person who pulls the trigger without emotion is already slipped over into psychosis?

And really, reality and video games are not the same. And if you are thinking you are in a video game and that makes killing easier to do, aren't you being delusional?

It's this part-
Many studies have shown that the more prolonged, extensive, and horrifying a soldier's or sailor's exposure to war trauma, the more likely it is that she or he will become emotionally worn down and exhausted. This happens to even the strongest and healthiest of individuals, and often it is precisely these soldiers who are the most psychologically disturbed by war because they endure so much of the trauma.
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It is not merely the unknown that we fear. It's not just a question of how to functionally get rid of a threat.

Rather, I think it comes down to the unsettling of our own existential notions. This is not just about the preservation of our lives, but our understanding of existence, our anticipation of the future.

It's sitting the foxhole every night wondering if the next artillery shell is going to fall into your foxhole. And it's how you adjust when the artillery shells stop falling.

Once, humans were prey. But we have no idea what kind of psychological state they were in. We are also thinking individuals who have grown accustomed to the world in which we live. That world is suddenly unsettled.

Most of the people I know who have lost someone close go through a period of adjustment and reconciliation. Individuals go through cycles of adaptation even when it is merely the lose of someone they love. We just don't hollow ourselves out and go on, day in or day out, or if we do it means a psychological cost.

Emotional detachment can be another way of saying denial. And denial is no answer to trauma. Many of the people who were advised as counsellors after 9-11 were told that the symptoms and psychological affect might not happen for years later. Psychological affects can be sudden, but they can also be a slow wearing down of the individual.

Again, take a normal individual and throw them into the wild for a few years without support, food, clothing, human relationships, weapons, and make them prey. Sure they might survive. But what kind of mental state would they be in? I would say that would be nothing compared to an individual who has to live in a world overrun by cannibal undead.
 
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