...on China and India...

Tempistfury

It Wandered In From the Wastes
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationw...7637055.story?coll=ny-leadworldnews-headlines

and incase the link is broken...

Newsday.com said:
India, China Agree to Form Partnership


NEW DELHI -- India and China, the world's two most populous countries, agreed Monday to form a strategic partnership to end a border dispute and boost trade in a deal marking a major shift in relations between the Asian giants.

The agreement, signed by both premiers, eases decades of mutual distrust between the nations, which share a mountainous, 2,500-mile border and fought a war in 1962. Parts of the border still are not demarcated.

"India and China can together reshape the world order," Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said at a ceremony for his Chinese counterpart, Premier Wen Jiabao, at India's presidential palace.

Together, the two nations account for one-third of the world's population.

The agreement outlined steps to demarcate the disputed boundary through a "fair, reasonable and mutually acceptable solution, through equal and friendly consultations," a statement announcing the partnership said.

The agreement does not involve defense arrangements, so it will not give Chinese ships the use of Indian ports.

An 11-point plan to settle the border dispute was finalized Sunday at a meeting between India's National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan and China's Vice Foreign Minister Dai Bingguo, the leader of the Chinese delegation to the talks.

The plan states that the countries would consider historical factors, geographical features, people living in the area, security and whether the area was currently under Indian or Chinese control when marking the border.

India says China still holds 16,000 square miles of its territory in the Kashmir region, while Beijing lays claim to a wide swath of territory in India's northeastern state of Arunachal Pradesh, which shares a 650-mile border with China's Tibet region.

China also recognized the Himalayan territory of Sikkim, located between Nepal and the kingdom of Bhutan, as a part of India, an Indian foreign ministry official said.

"A new map which the Chinese have published shows Sikkim as part of India. This is no longer an issue between us," Shyam Saran, a top official in the External Affairs Ministry, told reporters.

Sikkim was an independent principality before it was annexed by India in 1975. China never recognized Sikkim as an Indian possession and has claimed part of the territory as its own.

Pakistani Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed said the government had no immediate comment on the agreement between its two neighbors. The Foreign Ministry also declined to comment.

Saran said "the partnership is not a military alliance nor is it directed against a third country."

China is Pakistan's main trading partner and a big backer of its military, while it has tense but improving relations with India, with whom Pakistan has fought three wars.

Chinese engineers are helping fund and engineer a $248 million port in the remote southwestern Pakistani town of Gawadar. The project will decrease Pakistan's reliance on its main port in Karachi.

China also is helping fund a new nuclear reactor in Pakistan to be used to generate electricity.

India and China agreed to boost bilateral trade to $20 billion by 2008. Last year, trade totaled $13.6 billion, with India recording a $1.75 billion trade surplus, according to India's trade ministry.

The statement, while giving few details, said the agreement would promote diplomatic relations, economic ties and contribute to the nations "jointly addressing global challenges and threats."

"The leaders of the two countries have therefore agreed to establish an India-China strategic and cooperative partnership for peace and prosperity," the statement said.

The two countries also signed cooperation agreement in areas such as civil aviation, finance, education, science and technology, tourism and cultural exchanges.

"This is an important visit. We are working to promote friendly ties of cooperation between our two countries," Wen said.

Wen was expected to bring up the issue of Tibet and the role of the Tibetan spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, who lives in exile in India, but it was not immediately clear if it was discussed.

India allowed the Dalai Lama to set up a government in exile in the northern Himalayan town of Dharmsala after he fled Tibet in 1959 following an aborted uprising against Chinese rule in the territory.

Both sides have in recent years forged closer economic ties, hoping improved trade relations will also help expedite the resolution of political differences.

China is keen to develop a free trade area between the two countries. Their combined population is 2 billion, which would make it the largest free trade area in the world. During their talks, Wen and Singh agreed to set up a panel of experts to study the concept.

Now... am I the only one who is made just a little bit nervous by this? China has rather large economic and military aspirations, and they are quickly gaining on the US in terms of becoming a super power. Now Imagine India and China, together.

Now Imagine them in a war against well Europe and the United States. 2 billion people > NATO

In gamers terms, GG no RE USA.

Thoughts?
 
Well, it takes alot more than a document and redrawing some borders on a map to end centuries of mutual mistrust. But its a good first step. :)

The real test will be if they actually accede jurisdiction of the disputed regions in terms of taxation, policing and generalized governing. It'll be interesting to see what the US and NATO's take is on all this, or whether the pundits will see it as a rebuff to a recent deal where the US is selling F-16s to Pakistan. And anytime anyone sells nuclear anything to anyone I get nervous. Especially to those two undeclared nuclear powers. And how will this affect the EU's desire to lift the arms-embargo against China?

The plot thickens...
 
Our enemy is East Asia, out enemy has always been East Asia. Eurasia is out ally, Eurasia has always been our ally. :P

But seriously, is it just me, or is the world developing into a tri-polar system, with the USA, Europe, and Asia as the three powers?
 
calculon00 said:
But seriously, is it just me, or is the world developing into a tri-polar system, with the USA, Europe, and Asia as the three powers?

Perfect plot for a crappy RTS game!

:lol: ,
The Vault Dweller

P.S.

Though the idea of the two most populous countrys joining together while attempting to fulfill economic and military aspirations is very scary indeed...time to fortify East Asia is my guess...
 
It starts. Better get working on those bomb shelters, people.

Personally, I'm looking to buy up an abandoned missile silo home, where I can happily wait out the apocalypse. :D
 
Yeah, there's a lot of things that we might want to be worried about. My Chinese history professor is telling us every day about how people are saying this is going to be the "decade/century" of Asia.

China has a lot of experience in trade with the US. India has a lot of experience with stealing talent from the US. Now, combining those ideas into the 2 most populous countries means the US will have no market and no one will have jobs. whee!!!

Also, my prof mentioned that China is developing a nuclear missle that splits into 10-12 warheads. The power this has can decimate half the US in one shot. They are also creating SILENT nuclear subs. They are putting submarine sounders on ships in their harbor. If that little island near China tries to secceed, the US has a pact to go protect it, and once they enter that harbor, we screwed.
 
I still say we honor it. China has to know that invading Taiwain is not an option.

India and China? Unlikely. India has little reason to invest in China, China has little reason to invest in India, and they both compete over the Asian market. China is an authoritarian regiem that still has massive issues with the fact that it's still technically Maoist, India's democracy still is among the least efficent in the world.
 
John Uskglass said:
I still say we honor it. China has to know that invading Taiwain is not an option.

India and China? Unlikely. India has little reason to invest in China, China has little reason to invest in India, and they both compete over the Asian market. China is an authoritarian regiem that still has massive issues with the fact that it's still technically Maoist, India's democracy still is among the least efficent in the world.

Im glad CCR is right this time...

The truth is no matter how huge the population or potential both country's are quaqmired politically and socially and cant really develop until they solve those problems which will be decades at least.

As scary as defending Taiwan is considering it could easily be the starting point of a WW3 scenario (see Jebus' comment) the defense of Taiwan does keep China in check since its very existence is a front towards mainland China's ideals.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
well, all I got to say is, START SUCKING UP WHITES AND BLACKS, cause it's gonna get hot in here! (god I hope they dont hate us like we did to them at one time) :help: :look:
 
Yup. Looks like you are going to have problems. Good luck to all of you up there! :)
 
MadDog said:
Yeah, there's a lot of things that we might want to be worried about. My Chinese history professor is telling us every day about how people are saying this is going to be the "decade/century" of Asia.

China has a lot of experience in trade with the US. India has a lot of experience with stealing talent from the US. Now, combining those ideas into the 2 most populous countries means the US will have no market and no one will have jobs. whee!!!

Also, my prof mentioned that China is developing a nuclear missle that splits into 10-12 warheads. The power this has can decimate half the US in one shot. They are also creating SILENT nuclear subs. They are putting submarine sounders on ships in their harbor. If that little island near China tries to secceed, the US has a pact to go protect it, and once they enter that harbor, we screwed.

That cracks me up.

Where does your prof get this stuff?

Online speculation? Chinese media? "Leaked" classified files? The inside track? Or is he just making stuff up as he go along? Maybe he is a spy spreading disinformation? Is there a CIA pretending to be a student in his class taking notes? And isn't he suppose to be a history prof?

:D

What are they going to fuel the missile with? Coal? Oh, wait, they have a shortage on that right now.

LOL

I am not disputing the fact that China might be able to develop AND manufacture some interesting weaponry in the next 20 years.

But Chinese leaders have more pressing problems to solve other than Taiwan or US. There are how many people in China now? 1.2 or 1.3 billion? Can you imagine the system that must manage all the resources that must take care of all of these people? Food, petro, energy, solid & liquid waste, transportation, housing, education, medicine, policing, etc, etc, and the list goes on.

Confucius style bureaucracy + old soviet style management = a Nightmare of hellfire proportions.

These are just Basic problems that they must face everyday. Energy is such a huge problem in China that they estimate by year 2020, they will probably need more than 30 Three Gorges Dam to fuel it all.

Now, I am sure China has the Capabilities to develop these things. It just doesn't mean that they will actually be able to do it. The infrastructure required and the energy, talent needed to maintain it is atrocious.

And most of the time, most of these leaders are just simply more interested in lining their own pockets rather caring about other things.
:wink:
 
Starseeker said:
MadDog said:
Yeah, there's a lot of things that we might want to be worried about. My Chinese history professor is telling us every day about how people are saying this is going to be the "decade/century" of Asia.

China has a lot of experience in trade with the US. India has a lot of experience with stealing talent from the US. Now, combining those ideas into the 2 most populous countries means the US will have no market and no one will have jobs. whee!!!

Also, my prof mentioned that China is developing a nuclear missle that splits into 10-12 warheads. The power this has can decimate half the US in one shot. They are also creating SILENT nuclear subs. They are putting submarine sounders on ships in their harbor. If that little island near China tries to secceed, the US has a pact to go protect it, and once they enter that harbor, we screwed.

That cracks me up.

Where does your prof get this stuff?

Online speculation? Chinese media? "Leaked" classified files? The inside track? Or is he just making stuff up as he go along? Maybe he is a spy spreading disinformation? Is there a CIA pretending to be a student in his class taking notes? And isn't he suppose to be a history prof?

:D

What are they going to fuel the missile with? Coal? Oh, wait, they have a shortage on that right now.

LOL

I am not disputing the fact that China might be able to develop AND manufacture some interesting weaponry in the next 20 years.

But Chinese leaders have more pressing problems to solve other than Taiwan or US. There are how many people in China now? 1.2 or 1.3 billion? Can you imagine the system that must manage all the resources that must take care of all of these people? Food, petro, energy, solid & liquid waste, transportation, housing, education, medicine, policing, etc, etc, and the list goes on.

Confucius style bureaucracy + old soviet style management = a Nightmare of hellfire proportions.

These are just Basic problems that they must face everyday. Energy is such a huge problem in China that they estimate by year 2020, they will probably need more than 30 Three Gorges Dam to fuel it all.

Now, I am sure China has the Capabilities to develop these things. It just doesn't mean that they will actually be able to do it. The infrastructure required and the energy, talent needed to maintain it is atrocious.

And most of the time, most of these leaders are just simply more interested in lining their own pockets rather caring about other things.
:wink:
still, they can really minipulate us bad.
I agree with you, but I think the asians will try to rule and dictate world trade. After all, they see them selves as the greater race. (forgetting that we the whites gave them all the modern stuff.) :)
I am just worried that they may treat us like trash. Hey, we turned the cheek, I am just afraid they wont do the same.
 
Reply to Starseeker:

Well, he reads a lot of stuff, and I'm guessing Chinese newspapers and magazines. He Mentioned that China is developing a car that they will sell in the US for MUCH cheaper than any other car - like, $5,000. He told us this in the beginning of the year. And it uses all the technologies from every car company, since they are all manufactured in China (so the chinese know what's good in a car)

Well, this month in Hot Rod mag, they mention that GM wants to sue Chery, because their QQ looks and works just like the Chevy Spark. In fact, most of the working parts are interchangeable. So it IS true that they are using other car companies to develope their own car.

I'm sure some time soon, the US will mention how China is building this kind of weapon. Remember, America's debt is growing, and the gap b/w the rich and poor growing, but we are blowing shit up in other countries. Sometimes, domestic affairs are just not important to leaders of the nation.
 
Or external affairs are a means to keep social classes within your state distracted while you either get out of the hole you dug for yourself, or figure a way to take the money and run.

Thanks Starseeker for bring this discussion back to earth. Could this pact be something different. Both the US and Europe have reason to be worried about the growth of India and China. It might be that both regions begin to cooperate least they see their trade and economic power slip away to Asia. Perhaps this pact is a preventative mechanism.
 
Sovz said:
too bad they cant stand each other on a personal level.

Yet. and Yet is the keyword. If two governments don't want violence, there be no violence. (with exceptions of militant interference, {see Isreal/Palestine and India/Pakistan}) Last time I checked China and India were not trading terrorist blows. If over the next few years they keep up the good will overtures, and help each other, the people will quickly jump on board. (Think how quickly Americans jump on a bandwagon any day)

Given a few years of mutual good will, I would be willing to bet that China and India will be become very close, and ultimately a big threat.
 
Add that china is investing money in infrastructure in my country and other countries around here to exploit and trade resources like the previously mentioned coal.
 
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