Opinions on World Affairs: Mid-East Crisis

Discussion in 'General Discussion Forum' started by Guest, Nov 18, 2000.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't know about you, but I've been watching the progression of the so-called "Mid-East Crisis," a feud between Palestine and Israel over the West Bank and other areas of national dispute.

    What I see as the problem is that both sides are too obsessed with who is to blame for starting or continuing the problem, and not concerned with ending the problem. This was evident when Ted Copple (sp?) had representatives from both sides speaking on behalf of their nation and people. I tell you it was completely mad as both sides yelled at each other and never sought to answer the questions of why don't they just take the initiative and end the problem.

    So here's some of my opinions of the subject:
    ----------

    Israeli soldiers vs Palestinian Civilians:

    Yes, while it may sound horrible at first, pitting soldiers against civilians, you have to look at what is *really* going on. The Palestinian civilians are not innocent bystandards like the Jews in the Holocaust, no, they're chucking rocks, breaking windows, and overall causing problems. Personally, I think that the Palestinian civilians, at least the rioters, are at *fault* for the violence. If Israeli soldiers were meaning to kill them just to be cruel, there'd be a lot more dead than the six or so daily that die.

    Palestinian officials call for the UN to help protect that civilians. Personally, these civilians are causing their own demise by throwing rocks at some of the best trained military personel in the world. I mean, what are these rioters thinking they're accomplishing? Nothing. They just have nothing better to do because they DON'T HAVE JOBS.

    Which brings up another matter. Israel has blocked passage to Jerusalem for all incoming Palestinian people. So let me get this straight, they're blocking entrance of the few people who are actually being PRODUCTIVE individuals instead of rioting in the streets. They're precisely the people Israel should be *respecting,* not punishing. Sheesh.

    I'll voice more opinions as you guys voice yours.

    -Xotor-

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  2. Briosafreak

    Briosafreak Lived Through the Heat Death

    Dec 18, 2003
    >Israeli soldiers vs Palestinian Civilians:
    >
    >Yes, while it may sound horrible
    >at first, pitting soldiers against
    >civilians, you have to look
    >at what is *really* going
    >on. The Palestinian civilians
    >are not innocent bystandards like
    >the Jews in the Holocaust,
    >no, they're chucking rocks, breaking
    >windows, and overall causing problems.
    > Personally, I think that
    >the Palestinian civilians, at least
    >the rioters, are at *fault*
    >for the violence. If
    >Israeli soldiers were meaning to
    >kill them just to be
    >cruel, there'd be a lot
    >more dead than the six
    >or so daily that die.
    >
    >
    Israel went very far in their proposals in the camp david summit, but arafat couldn`t keep up, mainly because after Israel left Lebanon the radical palestinians saw it as their victory and gained power inside the PLO. So arafat hesitated, but the states and egypt were in the verge of getting results.
    Then the president of likhud thought it was the time to act to prevent a deal and gain votes in the coming elections, so he did that walk in the sacred muslims places and all hell broke loose.
    He`s the main cause for the bloodshed, by putting his political ambitions before peace.


    >Palestinian officials call for the UN
    >to help protect that civilians.
    > Personally, these civilians are
    >causing their own demise by
    >throwing rocks at some of
    >the best trained military personel
    >in the world. I
    >mean, what are these rioters
    >thinking they're accomplishing? Nothing.
    > They just have nothing
    >better to do because they
    >DON'T HAVE JOBS.
    >
    70% of the palestinians have less than 25 years old,many of the rioters are students. They`re using an old tactic in propaganda and urban warfare, called ironically the david vs. golias tactic, to bring the attention of the world and to try to appear as the victims against a much more powerfull enemy. Intifadah is all about psychology of the masses and the role of media in a glogalized world.


    >I'll voice more opinions as you
    >guys voice yours.

    Shooting children that are trying to attack you with rocks is wrong, sending children to attack fierce and well equiped soldiers is also wrong.

    But as you know morality and war just don`t mix...

    "shichisho hokoku"
     
  3. Guest

    Guest Guest

    >70% of the palestinians have less
    >than 25 years old,many of
    >the rioters are students. They`re
    >using an old tactic in
    >propaganda and urban warfare, called
    >ironically the david vs. golias
    >tactic, to bring the attention
    >of the world and to
    >try to appear as the
    >victims against a much more
    >powerfull enemy. Intifadah is all
    >about psychology of the masses
    >and the role of media
    >in a glogalized world.

    However they're forgetting that the media has cameras down there. Sure there are numbers, but I, as well as anyone who have seen a news segment have watched the Palestinians throwing rocks and overall causing trouble. I have no pity for those who continue to cause trouble and think they will be pitied for getting shot.

    >Shooting children that are trying to
    >attack you with rocks is
    >wrong, sending children to attack
    >fierce and well equiped soldiers
    >is also wrong.

    Throwing rocks at armed soldiers is stupid. Stupid people warrant no pity.

    -Xotor-

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  4. Briosafreak

    Briosafreak Lived Through the Heat Death

    Dec 18, 2003
    >
    >>Shooting children that are trying to
    >>attack you with rocks is
    >>wrong, sending children to attack
    >>fierce and well equiped soldiers
    >>is also wrong.
    >
    >Throwing rocks at armed soldiers is
    >stupid. Stupid people warrant
    >no pity.
    >

    Actually it isn`t, their old terrorist tactics were stupid and ineffective, blowing people up just wasn`t working, so this way they get support or at least neutrality from many outside the usa, some good coverage by american media and greater support from the moderate arab nations, those who hate israel but don`t want to piss the americans, at least too much;not doing so many terrorist attacks they`ve won more than everything they got with the old stupidity from the seventies and the eighties, when they did some spectacular stunts but got they`re ass kicked everywhere in the world.

    "shichisho hokoku"
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I think you should be a little careful with what you throw out your mouth, Xotor. I know relatively little about the deep-rooted biblical and mentalital (read: has with mentality to do. Couldn't find a fitting word) reasons to the war myself, but I don't think you should go around saying they are doing that and that wrong and poof if they did that and that there would be peace.

    What do you think Arafat and the rest are using their time for?
    Rock-throwing etc. is just one of the things they negotiate over all the time.

    The mentality (a lot of mentalities in here no?) of the people in the Mid-East countries is simply DIFFERENT than that of an American or Norwegian or other "rich western" country. Sorry to sound cynical or ignorant, guess it's just unavoidable sometimes. Oopsie! I just undermined my own argument!

    Back to the point, the mentality difference lies in that the ME people place alot of their dignity in... well, dignity. "Honor" is a common concept, but a wholy different one from a RW country.
    That's why it's so hard for most of them to level themselves above and try to make peace.

    There, finished, I think. I also think I want to set up my defenses. There's gonna be a storm tonight :)
     
  6. Guest

    Guest Guest

    that crisis wont be solluted in this nor the next 2-3 generations.... the hate is so deep have u ever seen some one from there talk about the other side.... i heard a women (israeli) she did say that they didnt wan to kill them or so just to dissapear and that they would bring another
    "final sollution" al'a Hitler.....
    the only sollution i can think of is UN sending in Loads of "Peacefull" solidiers and observers and then by long frigging engotiations maybee................. and then getting the economic working in the area.... but throwing stones one of the top armies in the world just dont work.....
     
  7. APTYP

    APTYP Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 2, 2003
    [font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Nov-20-00 AT 08:36PM (GMT)[p]He's right, Xotor. If grown men throw bombs at soldiers, they're terrorists, and if they're killed, soldiers are held defending themselves. If kids throw stones and they get killed, because this is, well, terrorism (international hooliganism), soldiers are called beasts and cruel barbarians ("Will someone please think of the children?!?!?!?!" - Reverend Lovejoy's wife). Even I, recognising this tactic for what it is, still sometimes find it inhumane to kill these juvenile terrorists ( even though there's no other option for soldiers).

    On jobless students: hell, look at American students! Rioters in Seattle! 'Protests' in Philadelphia (though nobody probably knows about it, because only local media, bent on isolationism and localism, bothered to mention it) during Republican convention! Look in American high schools and colleges! And one more thing...

    No, I must stop. Fight with stupidity is ethernal, never-ending (thank god!) and its complete victory is even dangerous. So I usually stay away from it. Therefore, I will not go on with this "stupidity witch-hunt", because it could lead into flamewar (involving me, PAS, and possibly some other people).

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  8. APTYP

    APTYP Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 2, 2003
    Let's start from the end. The only REAL solution is when Palestinians and Israelis are happy. That is, when Palestinians get their land, and Israelis keep theirs. This is only possible with the formation of joined country of Palestinians and Israelis.

    But Israil is a land given by God to Jewish people. So as long as religious movement in Israil stays in power, there's a danger that Palestinians will be treated as second-class citizens. And if Muslims will be ruling Israil, it'll be equally bad for Israelis. Israil must become religion-tolerant, religion-neutral, and accepting country. That is, there must be NO OFFICIAL RELIGION (here-Judaism). And that would be difficult to achieve and uphold.

    Another, "evil", solutions include total henocide of Israelis or Palestinians, Israil's destruction (physical or invasion from neighboring country), development of mass mind control by Israelis or Palestinians, death of humanity or the end of the world.

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  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    >Actually it isn`t, their old terrorist
    >tactics were stupid and ineffective,
    >blowing people up just wasn`t
    >working, so this way they
    >get support or at least
    >neutrality from many outside the
    >usa, some good coverage by
    >american media and greater support

    Well they sure as hell aren't getting my support. I figure most Arab nations hate Israel anyway, so why bother trying to garner support from them..

    -Xotor-

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  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    >He's right, Xotor. If grown men
    >throw bombs at soldiers, they're
    >terrorists, and if they're killed,
    >soldiers are held defending themselves.
    >If kids throw stones and
    >they get killed, because this
    >is, well, terrorism (international hooliganism),
    >soldiers are called beasts and
    >cruel barbarians ("Will someone please
    >think of the children?!?!?!?!" -
    >Reverend Lovejoy's wife). Even I,
    >recognising this tactic for what
    >it is, still sometimes find
    >it inhumane to kill these
    >juvenile terrorists ( even though
    >there's no other option for
    >soldiers).

    It's true, but people have to look past all this action-propaganda and see that these little freaks are just trying to earn pity for their stupid acts. It's like the death penalty for children, I believe that if a child murders another person in cold blood, they should receive the death penalty. Age is no excuse for actions.

    >On jobless students: hell, look at
    >American students! Rioters in Seattle!
    >'Protests' in Philadelphia (though nobody
    >probably knows about it, because
    >only local media, bent on
    >isolationism and localism, bothered to
    >mention it) during Republican convention!
    >Look in American high schools
    >and colleges! And one more
    >thing...

    That's why I want to make a line of T-Shirts saying "Protesters: Get a life, get a job, and quit wasting humanity's time," or "Protesters are people with too much free time," or "Protesters are people who know they can't make a difference, but waste their time trying."

    Then I want a whole rally to wear the T-shirts during one of those conventions where the lunatics of society come out and protest issues their have no clue about.

    A society with protesters is a society with too high unemployment and/or luxury.

    -Xotor-

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  11. Guest

    Guest Guest

    >the only sollution i can think
    >of is UN sending in
    >Loads of "Peacefull" solidiers and
    >observers and then by long
    >frigging engotiations maybee................. and then

    But what would that do? Arab nations resent UN (western) soldiers as much as Israeli soldiers. They'd probably still throw rocks at them, or worse, they'd throw rocks at Israeli soldiers thinking that the UN soldiers will protect them from their childish mistakes.

    And what enforcement would the UN soliders have over those jobless rock throwers? Will they say, "throw a rock and I'll shoot you" or say "please don't throw rocks?"

    It is pride that ruins humanity. From that Russian submarine, to the Mid-East crisis, it all results in death.

    -Xotor-

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  12. APTYP

    APTYP Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!

    Apr 2, 2003
    [font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-00 AT 01:04AM (GMT)[p]>It's true, but people have to
    >look past all this action-propaganda
    >and see that these little
    >freaks are just trying to
    >earn pity for their stupid
    >acts. It's like the
    >death penalty for children, I
    >believe that if a child
    >murders another person in cold
    >blood, they should receive the
    >death penalty. Age is
    >no excuse for actions.

    That's what PAS says. But again, what will say John Q. Public, manipulated by humanitarian extremists?

    >That's why I want to make
    >a line of T-Shirts saying
    >"Protesters: Get a life, get
    >a job, and quit wasting
    >humanity's time," or "Protesters are
    >people with too much free
    >time," or "Protesters are people
    >who know they can't make
    >a difference, but waste their
    >time trying."
    >
    >Then I want a whole rally
    >to wear the T-shirts during
    >one of those conventions where
    >the lunatics of society come
    >out and protest issues their
    >have no clue about.
    >
    >A society with protesters is a
    >society with too high unemployment
    >and/or luxury.
    >
    >-Xotor-

    Ah, "Protesting against the protesters"? Don't you have anything IMPORTANT to do, like watching talk shows and trading Pokemon cards? :-) :D

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  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    don't forget it's eternal, too. If this crisis is solved, something else will surface. the only question is where and when. And I can't help wondering why the Iraeli soldiers don't use rubber bullets at those rock-throwing hooligans.

    "Don't worry men, they can't hit us here"
     
  14. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Of course, without a good portion of society living lives of leisure and luxury, there would be very few people around to excercise their creative impulses. There'd be little in the way of art, philosophy, science, or craft achieved without people having too much free time on their hands.

    This is just as true today as it was when Aristotle first posited the argument. And Nietzsche knew what he was talking about when he said that the most important goal of society was to guide the development of the best individuals.

    That's awfully difficult when everyone has a 9-to-5 job. Those who do aren't really being tremednosly productive themselves. Don't get me wrong, wage laborers are integral and indispensable to any healthy economy. They're just more accurately said to be aiding someone else in being productive.

    The people who drive society are those with the entreprenurial spirit. And the protestors, silly as they may seem, are exercising that entreprenurial spirit.* What they're producing are protests. Sure, they may seem like overreactions to you and I; but was there ever ANYTHING that was completely above any sort of protest? I'd be very suspicious of any activity in which none could find any fault.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    *| Note that I'm referring to only the protestors. Those who use protests as an excuse to loot, vandalise, or engage in other like behaviors are clearly possess neither vision nor initiative. They are the ones who ought to get jobs.
     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    >That's what PAS says. But again,
    >what will say John Q.
    >Public, manipulated by humanitarian extremists?

    John Q. Public can watch the downplayed versions of the violence. :)

    >Ah, "Protesting against the protesters"? Don't
    >you have anything IMPORTANT to
    >do, like watching talk shows
    >and trading Pokemon cards? :-)

    Or possibly going to school? Maybe working? The only people who should be protesting are retired people, even then, they should be going to college again or teaching.

    -Xotor-

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  16. Guest

    Guest Guest

    >Of course, without a good portion
    >of society living lives of
    >leisure and luxury, there would
    >be very few people around
    >to excercise their creative impulses.
    >There'd be little in the
    >way of art, philosophy, science,
    >or craft achieved without people
    >having too much free time
    >on their hands.

    Then they should be practicing art or philosophizing or vacationing, not barracading buildings. I can understand protesting for better benefits or wages, but when it comes to these people who are trying to save the whales or other such futile acts...

    >The people who drive society are
    >those with the entreprenurial spirit.
    >And the protestors, silly as
    >they may seem, are exercising
    >that entreprenurial spirit.* What they're
    >producing are protests. Sure, they
    >may seem like overreactions to
    >you and I; but was
    >there ever ANYTHING that was
    >completely above any sort of
    >protest? I'd be very suspicious
    >of any activity in which
    >none could find any fault.

    How about those PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) people who hold up signs and bitch in front of slaughterhouses and meat groceres. In my city, some of those lunatics were protesting a fur store by lying semi-naked (underwear) inside a coffin in front of the store. Of course they wised up after an hour or two of 40 degrees Fahrenheit temperatures, but still, the stupidity of it all. People who want furs will get furs, and there isn't anything that semi-naked freezing fanatics lying in coffins can do about it.

    Then at our county fair, some girls were holding signs with a picture of a severed bloody horse head to protest people eating meat. It sure didn't effect me! I went right in and stopped by my favorite Philipino Shiskabob place for some marinated pork.. mmmmm.... Those PETA people are really missing out!

    Of course come the parodies: The T-Shirts with "People Eating The Animals," or "People Eating Tasty Animals," etc. Really, I find it encourages more meat eating just to spite these people.

    -Xotor-

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  17. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Don't forget the people who are protesting against that global warming shite. It hasn't been proven that humans have more than 0,0001 % effect on that. I think it's all a natural process.

    And, to stay on topic : the Palestinans have a point. Don't forget that most of the land they are fighting about was taken from them by the Isreali's in the ..day war.
    If they are using the rock-throwing as a tool to get noticed, they succeeded pretty well in it.

    The most lame thing about it all is that Barak is/was negotiating about peace. Like that will work. If they come to an agreement, some idiot will spoil it by stirring up a mob shrieking "FUCK THE TREATY ! WE WANT MORE". Just look at Northern Ireland with the "Real IRA".

    "Don't worry men, they can't hit us here"
     
  18. Briosafreak

    Briosafreak Lived Through the Heat Death

    Dec 18, 2003
    [font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Nov-21-00 AT 12:41PM (GMT)[p]The only way to a peace corps from UN to work is if they have orders to shoot in sight, like in east-timor, and it took a soldier from New Zealand to loose his ears, tongue, nose, and his head beeing sent to the animals as food to the orders beeing sent...
    The UN record is quite awfull in blue helmet missions.


    p.s.: i saw the Philadelphia incidents live in cnn international.
    I was a student leader in large demonstrations for better universities and overall conditions (we wanted the norwegian or danish upper level educational system, not the mess that we have here), but gave up, the weirdos would always appear and start a riot, i wanted computers not to smash macdonalds with vegetarian anachists, some people just don`t grow up...if it was a constitucional crisis or someone in power tried to change the basis of the political system in wich i live, or UE turns into a super state of burocrats more than it is now i`ll probably go off to the steets again, hell, real life fo:bos, couldn`t miss it... ;-)




    "shichisho hokoku"