Peak Oil... again

Sina

It Wandered In From the Wastes
I have been recently hearing more and more about this, and i chanced upon a good documentary by BBC which really explained it all thoroughly. Amongst many different examples and explanations that mostly concern USA, but not in some paranoid anti-american way, more in a here-look way, there were many scientist who are in that business, working for many of the companies and Institutes who monitor and research oil on planet earth.
There were big conventions, some international symposium on oil and literally everyone of them spoke about Hubbard and how its not some distant future anymore.
The thing is that there will still be oil somewhere, however much we leave by now and the next few years, but the costs of taking it out will rise and continue rising until the cost becomes greater than the gain. Than the drilling stops.

(which they do because when you have to pump oil from the deepest parts of deposits is much more xpensive than just punching a hole in the ground where there is a full underground lake. The deeper you dig the more expensive is every gallon.)

It seems Hubbart took some serious calculations and measured it and found out that we are over that peak when we were drawing highest amounts for mninimum investments. Now we are going downhill where the costs are rising and there is less and less oil everyday.

On those kind of slopes with whole of our not only economy but civilization suspended on extraction and spending of fossil fuels like mad, there can be no certain numbers.
But that number of five years is indeed the most pessimistic, so they've said too. 10 years seems like a shore shot tho.

Just look how much influence oil has on a world market or single countries. It is one of the cornerstones of economy.
Deeply conected with everything, it rises the costs of everything and then economy becomes a chaotic system even more than it already is... and crisis cause crisis and who knows when exactly it will break, and then the major shit starts when everything stops and whole system goes shebang.
No circulation of goods across the planet, no travel, no food or water because every pound of cargo suddenly costs a fortune.
No electronics from taiwan, no cheap stuff from china, no this , no that.... even transporting food inside a small state like mine would cost ludicrous amounts of money.
Oh yes money...that stops too i think, with such crashes.
And then shortly afterward the nukes start flying.


Every scientist on that convention agreed with those numbers Hubbert got long ago, and were amazed how nobody wants to listen even to them now. It was kind of funny seing them in his role now...they kind of expected to more people to listen to them.

Since 2003 in my dear country the gasoline went up in price 300%.
It didn't become cheaper not even once for five seconds.
And when i just look around further i start to see their point.

Even if we went behind Hubbard peak who would tell you?
Some official type of people?
Not those waging wars in Middle east because of oil right now.
And past few years.

I think ill start to get ready these next few years. Luckily i have a good idea. Sailing will become even more popular soon.


Sorry i cannot tell you any names now, forgot them all, but ill try to find that documentary again.
It had a strange name....something about American suburbans...or just suburban ...something...

Besides if you google M. King Hubbert you'll get enough info for a start.


As for making it more part of the story...i dont now, but i think it would maybe be good if intro showed our times too, you know Fallout way, ironic ...sad.... because it is happening now and we are going to play it and ...you know that it all comes together somehow. Still thinking about that.
 
Hubert was completely wrong about oil reserves Sina, talk to anyone that works in the field, or even anyone that works on geopolitical issues and the efect of resources in conflicts and you'll find out he completely missed his predictions. Really, when he started making those precictions he couldn't know about the size of the Brazilian, Venezuelan, Angola and Nigerian reserves, neither the incredible size of the Caspian sea reserves.
 
How come the prices are only going up?

Reserves? I don't think they will help much, but i must confess i have no raw data.

However seeing how much we as a human race are spending each day and the pollution and war and everything i would not be surprised if it did happen.

What i have seen so far of this whole deal Hubbert recognized first seems true, believable, and logical.

Do you have any examples or hard facts to support your claim or are you just saying it.
I at least provided some arguments, you did not.

-edit- here it is http://www.endofsuburbia.com/

It does not sound like some "doom doom the end" theory.

There are links on the site, contacts, references so i will check it out more.
 
Briosafreak said:
Hubert was completely wrong about oil reserves Sina, talk to anyone that works in the field, or even anyone that works on geopolitical issues and the efect of resources in conflicts and you'll find out he completely missed his predictions. Really, when he started making those precictions he couldn't know about the size of the Brazilian, Venezuelan, Angola and Nigerian reserves, neither the incredible size of the Caspian sea reserves.
Sina is right. And so was Hubbert. USA oil production peaked in 1971. World oil production has peaked quite recently (2004-2005) or will do so this year. Theoretically this means that there is enough oil left for roughly 40 years. Very roughly, that is, because most of the oil that is still left, is very expensive to extract and some of it will never be extracted because the amount of oil needed to extract it will be higher than he amount of oil that would be extracted. That said, recent predictions vary between 5-15 years. Than it's back to the Stone Age for everyone.
The Olduvai theory predicts worldwide permanent blackouts starting in 2012. That's in less than 6 years. I advise everyone to get prepared by that time, because when the shit hits the fan, you won't have any time left to get prepared.

Oh yeah, and Fallout rocks... :roll:
 
No Alec, i've seen this happening before, in the seventies and the eighties, and i was as pessimistic as Hubert in the early 90's.


But here lies the problem with those analyses. They failed time and time and yet every ten years or so someone in the academia gets back to them. Again try to study the potential drilling in the Caspian sea, only that makes the general Hubert premisses wrong.

Now if you tell me that the refineries needed aren't being built as they should and that could cause serious problems in five years, well that i might agree.

How come the prices are only going up?

Market analysts will bring as major forces in the incredible growth of prices the brutal increase in demand in China. China has growth levels of two digits for way over a decade now, and has a very small internal production capability and reserves, although if they get lucky then the deep sea explorations on the Southern Sea might help that.
They tend to bring China and India as the main factors, with some help from the iraq war, but i sense that the iraq war and the Iranian crisis are much more important in the big picture. The first raise in prices just after 9/11 was put under control, just to be toppled by the 5/6 dollars premium that came from the iraq war. Add that to the unrest and lack of secure predictions about the future in Venezuela, together with the attacks on oil fields in Nigeria and the attempts from Al-Qaeida to cause trouble in Saudi Arabia and the mess with Iran and we have a recipe for an oil crisis with Krugman's forecast of 100 dollars crude barrel showing to be increasingly likely.

But this has much more to do with Geopolitics and geoeconomy than Geology, at least for a few more decades.
 
Briosafreak said:
Market analysts will bring as major forces in the incredible growth of prices the brutal increase in demand in China. China has growth levels of two digits for way over a decade now, and has a very small internal production capability and reserves, although if they get lucky then the deep sea explorations on the Southern Sea might help that.
They tend to bring China and India as the main factors, with some help from the iraq war, but i sense that the iraq war and the Iranian crisis are much more important in the big picture. The first raise in prices just after 9/11 was put under control, just to be toppled by the 5/6 dollars premium that came from the iraq war. Add that to the unrest and lack of secure predictions about the future in Venezuela, together with the attacks on oil fields in Nigeria and the attempts from Al-Qaeida to cause trouble in Saudi Arabia and the mess with Iran and we have a recipe for an oil crisis with Krugman's forecast of 100 dollars crude barrel showing to be increasingly likely.

But this has much more to do with Geopolitics and geoeconomy than Geology, at least for a few more decades.

You realize that this is something i could have written, that it sounds like an argument for my side? Where in that jumble can you find a reasonable hope everything will be alright, or stabilize?
Are you an "optimist"?
Could you please give like, arguments, some facts that do not support my side of the story?
Anyway if there is someway to prolong it some more i would like to know it. Realy.
I have read that article you linked but its based on US goverment and OPEC predictions and influence so forgive me if i don't jump to buy it just like that. Besides now we should double check all the data this guy says is acurate. After he goes on how anybody can interpret data to fit his own needs and how its so relative field that it is hard to make acurate predictions. :roll:


And wasn't it here something about China being one of the players in Fallout apocalypse? In that final war started because of lack of oil and resources? :P
 
The last thing in my mind was to imply eveything will be fine in the oil arena, i thought that was clear. What i'm saying is Hubert predictions on shortage of oil because of oil becoming more scarce simply aren't right. There is oil for decades of production, and production isn't at a peak, since it's not true that large oil rserves haven't been found in the last twenty years. So again Hubert was wrong, as the ones that keep picking those ideas since the seventies are. By the way on that list you'll find the US Army, that defends the idea that oil is getting more scarce since 2000 for some years now.

As i told before that isn't true, the problem isn't of potencial suply, regardless of what hubert said, it is of cuts in that suply because of political obstacles and the rise of demand.

The problem is political, not geological, and in the refinement capability, not in potencial fossil fuel avaibility, wich isn't what Hubert was saying, was it?

Still here i pointed a few reasons why someone from IR like me loves the Fallout timeline and world, on that we can agree i guess :)

But not on Hubert
 
Sina said:
This is taken completly out of context. I protest.
I evaluated the thread. Half of the posts in the topic dealt nearly exclusively with peak oil (with barely a mention of Fallout 3, if any mention at all was made). Since so much of the thread dealt with the issue of peak oil, I split the appropriate posts into a new topic on a more relevant board.

If you really feel this is unfair, I suppose we can take the issue up. The threads can be merged again, with no more trouble than splitting them. Is context the only reason you protest? And is the issue important?
 
To me from what i have seen in my few years starting to pay attention to things beyond my computer screen i have noticed that gas prices are raging out of control. Now i will not agree with either side because from what i see cars will not be used it about 20-25 years. Political, geological, economical, whatever the reason cars are going to go extinct.

When the new hydrogen cars are mass produced will it be cheaper than gas or will it always be just under it to make a tidy profit? Will it be so expensive to proccess that nobody will want to buy the fuel?

Just a few questions and a bias opinion.
 
Hokian said:
To me from what i have seen in my few years starting to pay attention to things beyond my computer screen i have noticed that gas prices are raging out of control.
how deeply have the rising prices affected us? we're still consuming like mad...

i do believe oil will run out eventually, but it wont be from one day to the next. i do not believe the economy will crash any time soon due to high oil prices.
Hokian said:
When the new hydrogen cars are mass produced will it be cheaper than gas or will it always be just under it to make a tidy profit? Will it be so expensive to proccess that nobody will want to buy the fuel?
isnt the irony in 'clean' hydrogen cars that you have to input a good amount of energy to form the required hydrogen? energy coming from coal, gas, oil and nuclear powerplants. clean energy indeed...
 
Fuck that stupid article of yours, Briosafreak, it’s written by a bunch of biased nitwits. Peak Oil (of global oil production) has happened or is about to happen: some say it happened in 2004, some say it’s happening right now, others say it’s going to happen anytime soon (2008 usually being the last date given). A team from Sweden's University of Uppsala studied the global oil reserves and came to the conclusion that the world's oil reserves are up to 80 percent less than predicted. You can read about that in this article, although the article dates back from 2003 and the scientists involved have already had to alter their estimated date of Peak Oil from 2010 to 2008. You can read about that here. Kjell Aleklett, professor of the University of Uppsala, added: ‘The thing we are surprised of is that people in general are not aware of the decline in supplies and the extent to which it will affect production. The decline of oil and gas will affect the world population more than climate change.’
‘George Bush and Dick Cheney may have meant it when they said that the American way of life is not negotiable. But it most certainly is on life-support and being sustained by cruelty, brute force and lies,’ writes Mike Ruppert.
Mike Ruppert is a journalist who has been studying Peak Oil for quite some time now. In his report about the annual conference about Peak Oil by the ASPO, he writes: ‘In his presentation, Matthew Simmons, CEO of Simmons and Company International, the world’s largest investment bank reeled off a litany of “mistakes” made by the energy industry over decades. He described some of these mistakes as: Demand was never understood properly; Supply was merely aspiration (not actual reality); Decline curves became waterfalls [...]. Simmons described these mistakes as cascading and compounding over time and suggested that the underlying cause of all of them was the inherent assumption pushed by the financial markets that growth could possibly be infinite when nothing else in the physical universe is; when no organism or species has ever avoided the cycle of growth, maturity and decline that governs the natural world.’
And: ‘Economic growth is not possible without increased energy production.’ Meaning: we need to find some big friggin’ oil fields and soon. And we are looking hard, very hard, but we can’t find anything near the two-or three Ghawar fields we need to find immediately to avert a crisis. Ghawar is the biggest oilfield in the world, by the way, but it’s getting old and empty, just like all the other oil fields in Saudi Arabia.
Ruppert: ‘As William Kennedy, a UK observer at the conference noted afterwards, Ghawar’s ultimate recoverable reserves in 1975 were estimated at 60 billion barrels – by Exxon, Mobil, Texaco and Chevron. It had produced 55 billion barrels up to the end of 2003 and is still producing at 1.8 billion per annum. That shows you how close it might be to the end. When Ghawar dies, the world is officially in decline.’
Dr. Ali Morteza Samsam Bakhtiari is vice president of the National Iranian Oil Company (NIOC). Ruppert: ‘In his presentation, Bakhtiari told the conference that ‘the crisis is very, very near. World War III has in fact started. It has already affected every single citizen of the Middle East. Soon it will spill over to affect every single citizen of the world. Syria’s oil production is in terminal decline. Yemen is following. Major Middle East producers, including Saudi Arabia, will peak soon or have already peaked.’ Off the stage he was even more direct: ‘The present war cannot be confined to the Middle East,’ he said. ‘It will soon spill over to the rest of the world. The final implications will upset the global applecart.’’
The thing is that Exxon and BP and Shell are magnificent magicians when it comes to mathematics: they don’t want to cause mass hysteria by telling the world what’s really going on. Why, just this morning I read in my newspaper that BP has made less profit last year than the year before that – even though, the newspaper added, oil prices are sky rocketing and demand is higher than ever. You want me to tell you why they made less profit or can you figure that out for yourself? Yes: they need to invest more money in the extraction of the oil. Meaning: they are extracting the oil reserves that are harder to get at. Meaning: they have no alternative oil fields. Meaning: the shit is about to hit the fan.
It’s really a shame that the press is helping these bastards out by simply repeating what they say: ‘So yeah, oil prices are getting so high because there was this terrorist attack on this pipeline in some far away country’ or ‘Yeah, it’s 75 dollars now, because hurricane Bullshit destroyed a gas station in Palookaville’ or some other stupidity. Instead of simply mimicking these half-truths, they should be saying: ‘The oil is almost gone. Fact. The reserves that are left are the last ones, because we’ve searched this little finite planet of ours for years now and we haven’t been able to find anymore large oil fields, just small ones, terribly small ones sometimes, often not worth the trouble of extraction. Fact. So, you see boys and girls, whenever something bad happens in the world, like some bad guy blows up a pipeline or some hurricane destroys a small oil rich country, we can’t look anywhere else for oil anymore. We used to be able to do that, but those good ol’ days are over. Sorry. So yeah, this means you’re going to have to pay much, much more for oil from now on, (1) because it’s getting pretty fucking rare and (2) because the regions where there’s still some oil left are like really fucked up regions with madly religious people who basically can’t behave and who hate our guts.’ That would be closer to the truth.
I advise everyone who’s interested in this, to google ‘peak oil’ and/or ‘the olduvai theory’ and read up on the subject. The internet offers a lot of articles on this subject. Just don’t get fooled into thinking that it’s just a hoax, just some club of pessimists and doom sayers who want to ruin your perfect materialistic life. The articles are there to warn you that the worst-case scenario is about to happen and they will even help you to get prepared for when it does.

Best 2900th post ever!
 
i'm simply going to state that i do not know exactly whats going on. it's a fact that many scientists have freaked over peak oil in the past & that it has yet to happen. that doesnt change the fact that it might happen soon of course.

however, what i really wanted to say is that i found your example of BP rather amusing. you do realise that BP is also one of the biggest researchers in the world concerning alternative power sources? a decline in profit doesnt mean business is going bad or that there are problems. it could mean they are putting more money into research and whatnot.
but they are making PROFIT... (and still big ones at that)

a decline in profit does not warrant an "omigawd we're all going to die!". that's simplistic.

almost all other oil producers have more profit than ever...

yes, i am aware that things will probably have to change 'soon'. but even if this is the peak, we wont be thrown into anarchy from one day into the next...
 
SuAside said:
however, what i really wanted to say is that i found your example of BP rather amusing. you do realise that BP is also one of the biggest researchers in the world concerning alternative power sources? a decline in profit doesnt mean business is going bad or that there are problems. it could mean they are putting more money into research and whatnot.
but they are making PROFIT... (and still big ones at that)

Oh yes, we were still missing that one: alternative energy sources.
Well, boys and girls, let me tell you something about these 'alternative' energy sources:

Oil is a unique energy source that has no complete replacement in all its varied end uses. The British scientist Sir Crispin Tickell once said that 'we have done remarkably little to reduce our dependence on a fuel [oil] which is a limited resource, and for which there is no comprehensive substitute in prospect,' and by saying that he hit the nail on the head.

Coming to realize that oil is finite, any and all suggestions of means to replace oil are welcomed. Cheerful myths are enthusiastically embraced. These include: that there are two trillion barrels of economically recoverable oil in the Colorado Plateau oil shales; that dams and their reservoirs are a source of indefinitely renewable energy and that they are environmentally benign; that solar, wind, geothermal, and hydro-electric power can supply the electrical needs, from the Arctic to the tropics, of the Earth's nearly six billion people (likely to become at least 10 billion in the next fifty years); that coal, oil from oil sands, and biofuels can replace the 72 million barrels of oil the world now uses daily; and that somehow electricity produced from various alternative energy sources can readily provide the great mobility which oil now gives to the more than 600 million vehicles worldwide. Regrettably, none of these cheerful myths appear to be valid and regrettably, they never will be.

The mega-myth is the popular public placebo that 'the scientists will think of something.' Hell, BP (as we all know) invests quite a lot of money into this kind of research. Well, they really shouldn't. Why? Because the energy spectrum from burning wood to fusion that fuels the Sun is now well known. If there is some major exotic energy source beyond what has been listed, we have no evidence of it. What we know now is apparently what we have. Learn to live with that sad, sad reality and leave your sci-fi dreams where they should be: in the movie studios in Hollywood.

The reality appears to be that the world is rapidly running out of a resource that in many ways is irreplaceable. The result will be a great change in economies, social structures, and lifestyles. We have been living on a great fossil fuel inheritance accumulated during more than 500 million years. We will soon exhaust this capital, and we will have to go to work to try to live on current energy income. It will not be a simple easy transition. Quite the contrary actually. It'll be hell for all of us or at least for those that will be 'lucky enough' to survive it.

In a remarkably perceptive book written in 1952 called The Next Million Years, Charles Galton Darwin described various historic changes in the human condition, calling them 'revolutions.' He wrote that there is one more revolution clearly in sight:

'The fifth revolution will come when we have spent the stores of coal and oil that have been accumulating in the earth during hundreds of millions of years... it is obvious that there will be a very great difference in ways of life...'

Life will go on, but in a different paradigm, and oil will be sorely missed. But hey: that's the way the cookie will crumble, whether you like it or not.
 
Meaning: we need to find some big friggin’ oil fields and soon.

We have. The problem is of political conditions to start mass drilling and of refinement capability. I already said that. that swedish study is interesting, although it again makes the same (biased :) ) mistake of undervaluating potential exploration and overvaluating scarticity figures on today's exploration. this happens a lot, normally beeing the result of:

a) market analysts with special interests in keeping the price high no matter the political conditions (like in some oil companies...);
b) ecologists that try the doomsday figures because, unfortunately no one listens to them about changing energy policies;
c) academic fashions, as i told you before every 10/14 years there are studies that use models that in a few years get dediscredited
d) nuclear energy lobbyists that love to use those figures to sell. These days they are using more the political uncertainty card, winning lots of attention that way, all over the world.

Again i've seen this before, and the problem isn't (for the moment) geological but geopolitical, at this point you will not going to convince me otherwise. But keep the arguments flowing, i'm interested in what the others have to say.

Good idea Kotario, about the splitting
 
Kotario said:
Sina said:
This is taken completly out of context. I protest.
I evaluated the thread. Half of the posts in the topic dealt nearly exclusively with peak oil (with barely a mention of Fallout 3, if any mention at all was made). Since so much of the thread dealt with the issue of peak oil, I split the appropriate posts into a new topic on a more relevant board.

If you really feel this is unfair, I suppose we can take the issue up. The threads can be merged again, with no more trouble than splitting them. Is context the only reason you protest? And is the issue important?


Yes and i demand that you think of me in a costume of a french nobleman from 18th century with a big nose and a white small wig while i protest! :lol:


Briosafreak said:
Good idea Kotario, about the splitting

And now you got it. If you wanted one so bad you could have made some instead of butchering my Fallout3 thread.
This was an integral part of it.
Since it was Briosafreak that refused to believe me at once and forced this into debate you should have just cut of his comments. :twisted:

-takes a wig out-

I demand that if it turns that Hubert was right generally, and if the world ends as was prophesized in Great Fallout that these two threads shall be merged again onto one so that unfortunate may learn of it!

-takes the wig off-

Sure this went a little into a discussion about oil and was Hubert right or wrong which is hard to prove 100% right now, infact impossible if we want the flat truth. But at what percent would those opposing predictions be if there are any. 20? 50 at best?
And that is crucial if i would like to see some homage to Hubert in Fallout. One is of course linked with the other.
So that is the reason for for objecting but that does not mean i cant have a little fun doing it.
Anyway i suppose it was logical to separate them but
-takes wig out-
I demand that you pay heed to my demands constituted above!


Alec, you know i could have written all that if i wasn't so lazy to find it...and then i could have been a cool one. Excellent posts man 8)

thumbs up


SuAside said:
i'm simply going to state that i do not know exactly whats going on. it's a fact that many scientists have freaked over peak oil in the past & that it has yet to happen. that doesnt change the fact that it might happen soon of course.


a decline in profit does not warrant an "omigawd we're all going to die!". that's simplistic.

almost all other oil producers have more profit than ever...

yes, i am aware that things will probably have to change 'soon'. but even if this is the peak, we wont be thrown into anarchy from one day into the next...

doesn't the fact that so many scientist and people from oil business itself are freaking over something so vital ring any bells?

And there are no substitutes for it in sufficient quantities to feed all of the planet. And already its normal to read about suicide bombers, wars, Bush in US, war here, war there, and all the rest...
i could number them all day.
All that hidrogen and substitute fuel and artificial oil from whatever is maybe possible now while relatively cheap oil keeps the prices of production and distribution of those products relatively cheap.

The logic is simple and effective.

And when you count in that nothing can replace oil in Chemical industry for example, just to name one general area, and that in the first place you cannot produce mass quantities of those alternative sourcess of energy and fuel to satisfy the whole planet.....you come to the conclusion of a world where a number of powers who have Nuclear energy closing in on themselves trying to stretch last reserves of oil and industry in production, closing borders, rejecting refugees and all that time waring and threatening with the others for the last sourcess and deposits on the planet...


Briosafreak said:
We have. The problem is of political conditions to start mass drilling and of refinement capability. I already said that. that swedish study is interesting, although it again makes the same (biased :) ) mistake of undervaluating potential exploration and overvaluating scarticity figures on today's exploration. this happens a lot, normally beeing the result of:

a) market analysts with special interests in keeping the price high no matter the political conditions (like in some oil companies...);
b) ecologists that try the doomsday figures because, unfortunately no one listens to them about changing energy policies;
c) academic fashions, as i told you before every 10/14 years there are studies that use models that in a few years get dediscredited
d) nuclear energy lobbyists that love to use those figures to sell. These days they are using more the political uncertainty card, winning lots of attention that way, all over the world.

Again i've seen this before, and the problem isn't (for the moment) geological but geopolitical, at this point you will not going to convince me otherwise. But keep the arguments flowing, i'm interested in what the others have to say.

The logic says that if we find any magical new huge deposits of oil
the increasing numbers of people on the planet and increasing spending and turning away from the problem we will eat through,
like the mad little termites we are, those new deposits in a year or two...and then....what?

-takes a wig off-

:?
 
Remarkable discussion. For those not so interested in wading through all of this and want a synopsis of the argument-

hubert's peak oil theory

Personally, I think oil will peak but don't know when. Oil, at least in its natural state, is a finite resource. The question is whether there will be success in achieveing alternatives- such as bio-fuels, alternatives, etc.

It seems pretty clear that, regardless of whether the Peak predictors can figure the exact time, those interested are already taking steps.

Germany, for instance, has developed alternative fuel technology to well that it can export that technology. The US is exploring with fuel made from corn, Brazil does it with sugar cane. Internationally there has been a lot of effort made to restore reserves that have been relatively low producing for a long time- Sudan and Libya. So regardless of the geological debate, the importance of this seems to be enough that people are taking concerted action.
 
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