Playstation 2...

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Stop tearing apart my paragraphs and taking them out of context, my ideas are based in the real world.

An N64 cartridge holds up to 64 megabytes (512 megabits). The Playstation version of Resident Evil allowed you to control two different story lines whilst maintaining almost exact copies of information on each of the two discs since the Playstation does not have enough random access memory (RAM-yes I know what it means).
Sony are not dumb enough to overlook ease of programming, in fact Sony have always had their third parties in mind which is why they have so many more third party developers than Nintendo. Their policies regarding third parties and licensing are and have always been much more lenient.
I do consider RAM very important but I consider CPU speed much more important. The PS2 has two CPUs, a Graphics Synthesizer™ and a 128-bit Emotion Engine™ with a combined clock speed of over 440 MHz compared to the Gamecubes with 405 MHz. The Memory Bus Bandwidth is comparetively the same with PS2 having slightly less Cache Memory. It seems to me that Nintendo are actually trying to hide the specs on their Direct RAMbus and RAM itself. The PS2 has Polygon capabilities of 66 million per second while Gamecube can only sustain a pitiful 12 million. The PS2 has 2MB of sound memory compared to 24 KB on the Gamecube while the GC has 64 channels and PS2 has 48 the PS2 will clearly have much more flexibility with Dolby 5.1 support. Nintendo state that their system can turn 13 Gflops that is ridiculous compared to the home computer industry zenith of 8 and is useless.

Interplay would have to be stupid not to release on the PS2. The PS2 is a much more well balanced machine designed by the VAIO team and is the progeny of a system with more owners than people subscribing to the top FORTY-TWO U.S. newspapers – COMBINED. In 1999, more people bought PlayStation game consoles than subscribed to AOL by an almost 3 to 1 margin. In the same year, nearly four times as many people bought PlayStation games than visited Disneyland, one of the most popular vacation destinations in the U.S. A PlayStation game console can be found in one out of every four U.S. households. Seventy (70) million PlayStations have been sold worldwide 16.77 million units in Japan, 25.94 million units North America, 27.33 million units in Europe/PAL. Stuff that in your pipe and smoke it, Sony know what they are doing and I know my grammar.

PS- It is called “combined nouns,” look it up. Oh and Sony are going to release their system over a full year before the Gamecube, history repeats itself.:P

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[font size=1" color="#FF0000]LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-00 AT 11:36PM (GMT)[p]"Stop tearing apart my paragraphs and taking them out of context"

Can you list a single instance where I have taken your arguments out of context?

"my ideas are based in the real world"

Ok. What's your point?

"An N64 cartridge holds up to 64 megabytes (512 megabits). The Playstation version of Resident Evil allowed you to control two different story lines whilst maintaining almost exact copies of information on each of the two discs"

Again, I can't help but wonder what your point is; this doesn't say anything.

"since the Playstation does not have enough random access memory (RAM-yes I know what it means)."

You still don't seem to understand what RAM is. The amount of disk-space required has NOTHING to do with system RAM.

"Sony are not dumb enough to overlook ease of programming in fact Sony have always had their third parties in mind which is why they have so many more third party developers than Nintendo."

I'm not saying Sony is dumb, I'm saying that Sony made a mistake similar to the make Nintendo made with the N64.

"in fact Sony have always had their third parties in mind"
"Their policies regarding third parties and licensing are and have always been much more lenient."

<sarcasm>Are you referring to Sony's long history in the console market, dating all the way back to the Playstation?</sarcasm> Compared to companies like Nintendo and Sega, Sony are still very young and it is not wholly outside the realm of possibility that they made a mistake while developing their console. After all, Nintendo made some very large mistakes with the N64 after years of dominating with previous consoles and the Gameboy system.

"I do consider RAM very important but I consider CPU speed much more important"

Not only does this contrast with what you said earlier, ("B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T!!!!!!!! Memory is EVERYTHING! In two years the average computer will have over 2GB of RAM!") it is also inaccurate. RAM is essentially responsible for controlling how much data can be handled by the CPU at a given moment. A 1THz (TerraHertz) processor would be nearly worthless if it had only 8Mb of RAM to use.

"The PS2 has two CPUs, a Graphics Synthesizer™ and a 128-bit Emotion Engine™ with a combined clock speed of over 440 MHz"

<sarcasm>Wait! You can combine clock speeds!?! Sweet!!! My K6-2 500MHz machine is looking a lot better with that GeForce2 processing power added on!!</sarcasm> Seriously though, PS2's main clock speed is only 300MHz compared to Gamecube's 405MHz. If you "added" the processing power of NGC's graphics chip, which has more on-board functions than PS2's chip, it can easily overcome the measly 35MHz difference.

"It seems to me that Nintendo are actually trying to hide the specs on their Direct RAMbus and RAM itself."

Nintendo have been much more secretive about the NGC because they felt that revealing too much too soon was one of the mistakes made with the N64. However, Nintendo have announced that the NGC will have a total of 40Mb of system RAM (not including RAM allocated to sound and graphic functions) made up of 24Mb of 1T-SRAM and 16Mb of A-Memory (100MHz DRAM)

"MoSys 1T-SRAM technology (which is available in densities up to 128Mbits) uses a single transistor cell to achieve high density while maintaining the refresh-free interface and low latency random access memory access cycle time associated with traditional six-transistor SRAM cells. Embedded 1T-SRAM, as used in the Dolphin console, enables designers to get beyond the density limits of six-transistor SRAMs. It also reduces much of the circuit complexity and extra cost associated with using embedded DRAM. 1T-SRAM memories can be fabricated in either pure logic or embedded memory processes using as little as one ninth of the area of traditional six-transistor SRAM cores. In addition to the high performance and density, this technology offers dramatic power consumption savings by using under a quarter of the power of traditional SRAM memories.
"1T" refers to the single transistor feature while the "S" means that the RAM is static as opposed to dynamic (DRAM). The static nature of the SRAM is intended to give the Gekko chip immediate access to all the info it needs which should give the Dolphin its incredible speed."-IGNCube Lexicon Guide(http://cube.ign.com/lexicon/a.html)

"The PS2 has Polygon capabilities of 66 million per second while Gamecube can only sustain a pitiful 12 million"

That PS2 number (I thought it was supposed to be 75 Million, though) is very inaccurate. If someone wanted to see how many polygons the machine could put on-screen with no graphical effects, no textures, no lighting and no AI (in simpler terms, no game) then the PS2 could theoretically produce this number. However, you will never see any number even remotely close to this in any PS2 game. On the contrary, the number released by Nintendo is what could easily be achieved in a game. For your information, most 1st generation PS2 games will only put out about 3-5 million polygons.

While we're on the subject of graphics, I'd like to point out the S3 texture compression used in the NGC:

"S3 will be a major force in accelerating the performance we'll achieve on [Gamecube]. With their unique graphics compression technology, developers will be able to provide players with more complex and colorful graphics. Coupled with our previously announced strategic agreements with companies like IBM, Matsushita, ArtX and MoSys, incorporation of S3 technology will make Gamecube a console without equal."-Howard Lincoln

Developed by S3, S3TC (S3 Texture Compression) is a technology used to compress textures in 3D games. Textures are compressed at a 6:1 ratio. S3TC technology is built into Gamecube's graphics chip."-IGNCube Lexicon Guide

"The PS2 has 2MB of sound memory compared to 24 KB on the Gamecube while the GC has 64 channels and PS2 has 48 the PS2 will clearly have much more flexibility with Dolby 5.1 support"

The amount of dedicated memory is unimportant because the MusyX sound system (http://ign64.ign.com/news/9186.html) used in the Dolphin allows sound to use both the main processor and any sound co-processors available. This also means that the sound can be use the main RAM as well as the dedicated RAM. The NGC will also support Dolby 5.1.

"Nintendo state that their system can turn 13 Gflops that is ridiculous compared to the home computer industry zenith of 8 and is useless."

When you are looking at a dedicated architecture like the NGC, you are going to see major performance boosts when compared to PCs, which have a more general architecture. How is that useless; you haven't explained that properly?

"The PS2 is a much more well balanced machine"

Not according to what I've shown. But then again, that statement is entirely a matter of opinion.

"The PS2 is a much more well balanced machine designed by the VAIO team and is the progeny of a system with more owners than people subscribing to the top FORTY-TWO U.S. newspapers – COMBINED. In 1999, more people bought PlayStation game consoles than subscribed to AOL by an almost 3 to 1 margin. In the same year, nearly four times as many people bought PlayStation games than visited Disneyland, one of the most popular vacation destinations in the U.S. A PlayStation game console can be found in one out of every four U.S. households. Seventy (70) million PlayStations have been sold worldwide 16.77 million units in Japan, 25.94 million units North America, 27.33 million units in Europe/PAL."

All of this means nothing. Like I said earlier, Nintendo dominated the competition for years before losing the N64/PSX war. As proved with the N64, previous system sales are not an accurate indication of future trends.

"Sony know what they are doing"

Again, this is entirely a matter of opinion that you are unable to support. System stats may look nice, but I've given you quotes from developers proving that they've had problems with development on the PS2. All you've had is speculation and meaningless stats.

"I know my grammar."

Considering that over half of the information in your post is smashed together in a nearly incoherent paragraph with no form or transition, I highly doubt that.

While you did do some research for this post, you failed to provide anything truly meaningful and you most definitely failed to arrange it in a meaningful manner, which only served to hurt your arguments. I don't want to seem too condescending, but it would really help your cause if you outlined your arguments before posting them. Finally, you should never totally drop a topic even if you are not the clear victor. Conceding defeat over a topic makes you look better than ignoring failed arguments. As it stands, you've certainly done nothing to convince of PS2's dominance and have probably only hurt the cause for others following our debate.
 
well, i already played in a japanese ps2 a couple of times and it`s not so exciting as i thought it would be...
 
RE: If there's one thing all consoles miss...

Shenmue for the Dreamcast is supposed to be hellified non-linear. And looks freakin awesome to boot. Go DC! :)
 
Now it is time for my Antithesis on the Kickassanology of the Playstation 2 Computer Entertainment System.

"If you "added" the processing power of NGC's graphics chip, which has more on-board functions than PS2's chip, it can easily overcome the measly 35MHz difference. "-Doyle

You can not say that and it is not true, Nintendo haven't released how many sets of instruction that are on board their GameCube CPU and neither have Sony.

"'S3 will be a major force in accelerating the performance we'll achieve on . With their unique graphics compression technology, developers will be able to provide players with more complex and colorful graphics. Coupled with our previously announced strategic agreements with companies like IBM, Matsushita, ArtX and MoSys, incorporation of S3 technology will make Gamecube a console without equal.'-Howard Lincoln "-Doyle
"That PS2 number (I thought it was supposed to be 75 Million, though) is very inaccurate. If someone wanted to see how many polygons the machine could put on-screen with no graphical effects, no textures, no lighting and no AI (in simpler terms, no game) then the PS2 could theoretically produce this number. However, you will never see any number even remotely close to this in any PS2 game. On the contrary, the number released by Nintendo is what could easily be achieved in a game. For your information, most 1st generation PS2 games will only put out about 3-5 million polygons. "-Doyle
"'Nintendo state that their system can turn 13 Gflops that is ridiculous compared to the home computer industry zenith of 8 and is useless.'
When you are looking at a dedicated architecture like the NGC, you are going to see major performance boosts when compared to PCs, which have a more general architecture. How is that useless; you haven't explained that properly?"-Doyle

Since you have decided to use quotes from former employees of Nintendo so shall I let Sony answer your rebuttals (goodie goodie goodie):

"(PlayStation2 Development Tool DTL-T10000) can be used as a Linux-based workstation enabling developers to create graphics in the PlayStation2 development environment that were only previously possible on a separate workstation."-Sony.com
"(The Emotion Engine) incorporates two 64 bit integer units (IU) with a 128 bit SIMD multimedia command unit, two independent floating point vector calculation units (VU0, VU1), an MPEG 2 decoder circuit (Image Processing Unit/IPU) and high performance DMA controllers onto one silicon chip. The massive combined performance of this CPU permits complicated physical calculation, NURBS curved surface generation and 3D geometric transformations, which are difficult to perform in real time with PC CPUs performed at high speeds…The main memory supporting the high speed CPU uses the Direct Rambus DRAM in two channels to achieve a 3.2 GB/second bus bandwidth. This equates to four times the performance of the latest PCs that are built on the PC-100 architecture.
"-Sony.com

If you are wondering the main memory is 32 MB Direct Rambus DRAM in two channels at 800MHz achieving a 3.2 GB/second bandwidth the same speed as the supposedly superior 1T-SRAM except it is going to be out a year and a half earlier.

Oh and "That PS2 number" IS real time with all textures and graphical(? Is that a word?) effects and WILL be implemented at least half way by the time the GameCube is released.

Period.


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"You can not say that and it is not true, Nintendo haven't released how many sets of instruction that are on board their GameCube CPU and neither have Sony."

First of all, we're talking about the separate graphics processor, not the CPU. As for your claim that neither company has released a list of on-board functions, that's just plain wrong. Nintendo have revealed the following on-board functions: Fog, subpixel anti-aliasing, HW light x8, alpha blending, virtual texture design, multi-texture mapping/bump/environment mapping, MIPMAP, bilinear filtering, real-time texture decompression (S3TC), Real-time decompression of display list, HW motion compensation capability, as well as on-board transform and lighting. What all of this means (especially on-board T&L which the PS2 definitely does not have) is that the faster NGC processor will have less graphical information to deal with than the PS2 processor. If you need more proof, chew on these quotes from developers:

"Quite simply, T&L is the best feature that you can add to a graphics accelerator. Developers are setting new standards for physics and procedural animation, for this you need CPU bandwidth and a lot of polys. Offloading geometry to the accelerator allows you to draw smoother, more detailed meshes in addition to leaving more CPU bandwidth to spend on physics and game play." -- David Wu, 3D programmer, Pseudo Interactive

"With hardware T&L we are able to make applications that are up to eight times more complex." -- Ferry Marcellis, 3D programmer, ACT 3D

Not only have Nintendo released a list of on-board funtions, they've included some pretty nice ones, too. As for Sony, I haven't seen any lists, (although I haven't looked much) however I think that there probably are some available, considering that the PS2 is out in Japan and will be out in a little over a week in America.

"Since you have decided to use quotes from former employees of Nintendo so shall I let Sony answer your rebuttals (goodie goodie goodie):"

Be my guest, but those quotes you gave don't say anything regarding PS2 vs other consoles and certainly don't counter my rebuttals. If you take the time to do research, at least do useful research.

"If you are wondering the main memory is 32 MB Direct Rambus DRAM in two channels at 800MHz achieving a 3.2 GB/second bandwidth the same speed as the supposedly superior 1T-SRAM except it is going to be out a year and a half earlier."

What's your point?

"Oh and "That PS2 number" IS real time with all textures and graphical(? Is that a word?) effects and WILL be implemented at least half way by the time the GameCube is released."

That is, quite frankly, the most ludicrous thing you've said throughout this entire debate (and that's saying quite a bit). I'd honestly be surprised if you could come up with any reliable support for that statement as I've only heard the contrary.

I've also taken the liberty of looking up a couple of words that seem to have given you trouble during our debate:

"graphic \'gra-fik\ also GRAPHICAL..."

"moot .... 2: deprived of practical significance : made abstract"

Both references are courtesy of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: Tenth Edition.

Finally, Joe's_Cafe, I'm going to make a recommendation that you really should consider: give up. Throughout this entire debate, you've posted nothing of significance that I haven't been able to counter. You've retreated on all of your original arguments and many that you've started since then. Most of your statements seem based off of speculation and opinion rather than any sort of proof. On the occasions that you have provided quotes or references, they are generally insignificant to the topic at hand. In short, you are fighting a losing battle and I'm getting bored with it. Conceding defeat and getting on with your life is the best option for both of us: you save a sliver of your ego from being humbled and I can stop waisting valuable Pharoah time on these arguments.
 
First of all those are not CPU instructions those are graphic processor tricks. The Sony machine will be capable of mip-mapping, bi-linear filtering, anti-aliasing, texture-correction, Z-buffering, and Bezier surfacing, a technique that decides the maximum or minimum number of polygons that are needed to make an object look its smoothest. Bezier surfacing also assists in telling the object to use as many or as few polygons as the system can handle at that processing moment. Developers can easily insert Bezier-surfaced CG models into the PlayStation 2 and the system will be able to render the object in real-time. The PS2 has other processes to create sparks in a fire or flowing hair. Oh and Fog, subpixel anti-aliasing, alpha blending, virtual texture design, multi-texture mapping/bump/environment mapping are industry standard, even the Dreamcast have them.

Second of all I'm sorry for that remark that that number on Sony's specifications are real time I didn't know that it is an industry standard to give out the maximum polygon output which Nintendo blatantly choose to ignore saying their "polygon capabilities" were 5-12 million. Since then I have found that the PS2 with all tricks on has the ability to push 20 million, I'll leave it to you to figure out why Nintendo would "choose" not to release the maximum output stats.

Lastly fuck off I scored an IQ of 172 at the age of 12, I speak two languages, I've had an academic level of 4th year level college and above since freshmen High School, and I scored a 98 on my ASVABs. I am 20 and currently enrolled in a college I would rather not disclose. If you cannot understand my rants you are obviously a dolt and anything you might say on it is irrelevant and not something I can easily stoop to counter therefore I don't respond to your lesser "rebuttals." It seems to me that you in your inconsequentiality are trying to spur me to leave the debate. Third of all don't tell me about my GOD DAMNED EGO or to get on with my life, I visit this site once a week. My recommendation to you is to just sit back and watch capitalism in action. The simple fact remains that Sony are the second largest electronics company in the world and are a manufacturing company first and foremost. For every expert that Nintendo have in one field Sony have three and they are not overlooking anything given they have been in the business for over fifty years and aren't looking to go belly up anytime soon. I'm done with this.


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I'm glad you decided to follow my last piece of advice. You could have done it more graciously, though, considering that I've been trying to help you the entire time. Regardless, I'll leave whatever remains of your ego in tact and not counter your final arguments.

I'll leave you with this final piece of advice: if you want someone to believe that you're a genius, act like one.
 
All i have to say about consoles is FUCK THEM. so to play all these new games that are supossedly so great i have to buy a $300 thing that will be obsolete in 3 years.

plus id have to buy a computer for music? fuck that. youll never be able to produce a gaming console that also has 32 inputs/outputs and software plus a midi channel. for my purposes it makes more sense to buy a computer.
 
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