Policeman shoots victim under dodgy circumstances

The fact that this thread still exists and merely had the title changed while the other was immediately vatted speaks for itself.
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Nope. A servant of the community (see how PO's are paid) doing a wrong =/= a criminal doing a wrong.

When whites are brutally murdered and race is clearly the motive, it isn't news and it's racist to discuss it.
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In the media most certainly, but that's another topic.

You can have a discussion about reverse racism (is that an appropriate term?), just don't race bait.
 
Tagaziel said:
You really don't see the problem of policemen opening fire without even checking what's happening?
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No, obviously the man had a moment of lunacy, if not he was plain and simply crazy all together for doing that. My point is that it really shouldn't matter that the cop was white and the man was black. An innocent kid died for Pete's sake.
 
There are good cops and there are bad cops, but unfortunately, there isn't always a good one there to watch the bad ones. (That was at Mobucks. Having to compose posts from a phone leaves me a few texts behind the conversation sometimes It does look for all the world like the facts in this case may be on the officer's side, but there's no call to judge either way just yet).

Phil: anyone who keeps an eye on news aggregators has heard those three names and about the heinous crimes perpetrated against them, and knows that the relative lack of outrage over their deaths is a big indicator of the frenzy-feeding ignominy of our national media (and as a matter of fact, if MadMax had chosen any of them as the basis for his thread, it migh not have been vatted). What I'm hearing from you, though, is that the underlying framework of insidious racism and social injustice that spurs violence against whites is an ubiquitous, major issue that we need to be talking about, and that the underlying framework of insidious racism and social injustice that spurs violence against minorities (specifically, blacks) is trumped up media bullshit and political pandering. There's no cognitive dissonance there?
 
Yamu said:
What I'm hearing from you, though, is that the underlying framework of insidious racism and social injustice that spurs violence against whites is an ubiquitous, major issue, and that the underlying framework of insidious racism and social injustice that spurs violence against minorities (specifically, blacks) is trumped up media bullshit and political pandering. There's no cognitive dissonance there?
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Lets be honest, the widespread violent crimes committed against blacks are committed by other blacks, and much like the black-on-white crimes, are largely ignored by the media. A Tyrone can murder a Tyreese and nobody gives a fuck, but if a George kills a Trayvon in self defense, it's a race baiting media shitstorm. Yeah it smells like trumped up bullshit to me.

If whites murdered blacks at the same rate blacks murder whites, the media wouldn't be able to drag out these incredibly rare cases for months on end. There would be several new George Zimmermans every day.
 
Tonight's top story: the poor and disenfranchised in a society are more often the perpetrators and the victims of violent crimes, and are far more likely to be marginalized when they turn to the system for help. Stick around after that for our hard-hitting expose on who the poor and disenfranchised in our society actually are, and how they got that way. Plus, we've got Ollie Williams with the weather.
 
There's been multiple famous cases where someone's been shot for knocking on a door. This case seems less crazy to me since it was 2am and the officer thought he was rushing to someone's defence.
 
mobucks said:
My friend just got an assault on police officer charge for putting his hand on the cop's shoulder, gingerly. They then drove him to jail and beat him up a little bit in the parking lot.
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What the fuck was he thinking?
 
Yamu said:
Tonight's top story: the poor and disenfranchised in a society are more often the perpetrators and the victims of violent crimes, and are far more likely to be marginalized when they turn to the system for help. Stick around after that for our hard-hitting expose on who the poor and disenfranchised in our society actually are, and how they got that way. Plus, we've got Ollie Williams with the weather.
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When do we (as a country) stop making excuses for violent, subhuman behavior and demand personal accountability? We aren't talking about crimes of desperation, stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving children. We have safety nets in place so that shit like that doesn't happen, and with a whopping 10% of the population on welfare, I'd say those programs are a rousing success.

It's time to stop treating blacks like children.
 
If you have a contact of two different races, most of the time there will be some form of stereotyping and the consiquences that proceed because of that, but there is a pretty good rule for any race encauntering a police officer: stand still, obey orders and do not do any sudden movements, you ARE dealing with another human being who has an official permit to use a GUN against you and the best scenario is to avoid the contact at all.

Now then, knocking on someones door in a way to make them call the police is not a good idea, especially 2am in the morning, so even if the officer made a race motivated decision, it doesn't exclude the other party (victim) from responsibility to act like a rational citizen. You can find plenty of police brutality in post-soviet block countries, even though they don't really have tangible race minorities (heck, not long ago i read an article where two ukranian officers kidnapped a women, raped her and beat her to a state, where they believed she was dead and so she barely escaped). Avoid actions that bring you face to face with the police, the real problem might just be with the police and not race per-se.

Of course, i do not diminish the problem of racism (which i find just irational), but the media is not helping to solve that problem, by "race charging" their headlines always in a nonpositive way, which only serves to widen the divide between different races and cultures, which leads to more brutality. So i invite anyone (including me) to not be baited by the media, step back and try to look at cases from different perspectives.
 
AtomBomb said:
No, obviously the man had a moment of lunacy, if not he was plain and simply crazy all together for doing that. My point is that it really shouldn't matter that the cop was white and the man was black. An innocent kid died for Pete's sake.
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actually we do not know how "innocent" the kid was.

look at how many people think trayvon martin still is a cherubic innocent.

we do not have enough facts yet. and i would say anyone that is trying to sensationalize this at this extremely early point is guilty of racism.

those are the ones you need to worry about. before we even know what happened people trying to sensationalize this and capitalize on this without knowing facts...

to me they are the racists.

i still think it is hilarious when people still say george zimmerman is white. george zimmerman is 50% white. barack obama is 50% white. do you call obama a white guy? thats a double standard.
 
TheWesDude said:
AtomBomb said:
No, obviously the man had a moment of lunacy, if not he was plain and simply crazy all together for doing that. My point is that it really shouldn't matter that the cop was white and the man was black. An innocent kid died for Pete's sake.
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actually we do not know how "innocent" the kid was.

look at how many people think trayvon martin still is a cherubic innocent.

we do not have enough facts yet. and i would say anyone that is trying to sensationalize this at this extremely early point is guilty of racism.

those are the ones you need to worry about. before we even know what happened people trying to sensationalize this and capitalize on this without knowing facts...

to me they are the racists.

i still think it is hilarious when people still say george zimmerman is white. george zimmerman is 50% white. barack obama is 50% white. do you call obama a white guy? thats a double standard.
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This is a good point, people jumped to conclusions very quickly on the Zimmerman case and now his life is ruined thanks to the media. But, like the Trayvon Martin case, I fail to see why it made big news. No disrespect to the deceased, but people die all the time. I believe it's understandable when there are mass shootings or acts of terror and make big news because they are more of a rarity...I mean that Navy Yard shooting killed 13 I believe and it's not getting that much attention believe it or not.
 
the important thing to keep in mind, that WNYD shooting, that is a "gun free zone" as well.

only military police, police, fbi, nsa, cia, and if you issued a weapon with permission to fire live rounds on a range or other circumstances are you allowed to carry a weapon let alone rounds.
 
How the hell is it reasonable to shoot a man twelve times because he is running at you, when there is no evidence he has a firearm? Stun him, sure, hit him with a stick, but shoot at him twelve times?
 
Mikey said:
How the hell is it reasonable to shoot a man twelve times because he is running at you, when there is no evidence he has a firearm? Stun him, sure, hit him with a stick, but shoot at him twelve times?
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They did taze him, and then he charged the officer. After that, all bets were off and they magdumped him. Cops no longer take any chances with situations like that, as shit happens fast and one or more parties are going to end up injured/dead, and if f you think they were obligated to try and take down a hulking, enraged (probably on PCP or Bath Salts) football player with a "stick", you're fucking nuts.

Here's a man who didn't want to go back to prison, so when a cop stopped him, he pulled a BB gun on the officer. Can you guess what happens next?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UaEBFJOlgY[/youtube]

Cops are constantly in danger, and are justifiably on edge. If you don't want several new holes, don't fucking threaten them.
 
Mikey said:
How the hell is it reasonable to shoot a man twelve times because he is running at you...
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Because, you keep firing until the threat is no longer a threat. Watch the video Phil linked to, the officer fired at least 10 times in about 3 maybe 4 seconds. It happens that fast folks. Single shots from a pistol generally don't drop targets. Multiple shots do. It's not unsual to need that many rounds, that's why those clips are a STANDARD size.
 
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/glob...ed-only-85-bullets-against-people-2011/52162/

I like the extent to which people will go to defend gun-happy cops in the United States. Unless the U.S. is Somalia, where you do have guys with military-grade guns around every corner (though since the AU pacified Mogadishu, it's noticeably safer), the trigger-happiness is just going overboard.

Tazer work if they hit. "OH MY TAZER DON'T WORK" is a cop-out. If it didn't work, that means you're a lousy shot and probes didn't connect properly. That's why there's two of you with tazers.

Another problem is that the policemen shot a guy without confirming who he was or what his intentions were. A policeman is not a soldier, his job description doesn't involve urban combat and shooting at suspicious characters the moment he feels threatened. His job is protecting the community and that requires making sure that you have a reason to shoot someone dead.
 
mobucks said:
Anyway, fuckin cops are crazy. They spend their entire careers just waiting, hoping to be able to use their weapon in the line of duty. Theyre like the USMC but their tour lasts up to 50 years. Give them just a hint of an excuse, I dare you; black or white you will regret it.
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Do you make ass-umptions like this about everything in life? Most cops I know are more worried about making enough to support the wife and kids and return home safely after every shift to see them. No law enforcement officer wants to get in trouble for shooting someone and then risk loosing their careers and even going to jail over it, unless they're psychos in wich case it has less to do with the profession and more to do with an individual's mental health.
 
Gonzalez said:
@tagaz You cannot seriously take the statistics of one context and then try to apply them in a completely different one and call that "making a point". What policemen in germany are exposed to is completely different to what happens in the US, even the population is different, not only in demographics but in raw numbers, the article talks about a specific amount of bullets and not even ratios compared to population (US population is by far bigger than german population las time I checked, correct me if I'm wrong). Regulations and procedures vary from country to country (the Argentine Federal Police is forbidden from making warning shots). But I guess it's ok, you want to take a specific case where things went to hell and someone got killed under unclear circumstances and outrage about it, then outrage about it all you want, truth is that none of us was there, none of us is going to determine if the officer in question is guilty of doing something illegal or not, and a particular case should be used to generalize on an entire police force (or forces), much less a society in general (and god knows I'm not interested in defending US society for it has many faults).
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United States is bigger than Germany in terms of territory, however, in terms of population, it only has about four times as much population. The U.S. has some 320 million citizens, Germany has 82 million.

Please enlighten me as to what makes the United States different. Germany has a sizable immigrant population, parts of which are first generation immigrants that have yet to assimilate or second generation that outright refuses to assimilate. It's a mixed society, just like the United States. Germany is a federal state, just like the United States. Hell, the largest ethnic group in the United States are German Americans. I'd understood your point if I tried to compare Germany to, say, Afghanistan, Russia, or Kenya, which can have radical differences. But I'm comparing two fundamentally democratic, capitalist countries that are part of the first world. It's an entirely warranted comparison.

The problem is there. The Firearms Discharge Report for the NYPD in 2011 alone mentions 96 intentional firearm discharges. That's more than the amount of bullets fired in the entire Germany, in a city that's 10% the country's size.

The United States has a gun problem and the trigger-happy cops are a part of it. We can skirt around the issue, but it's there.
 
tagz, really?

you are going go with that?

you have to know thats a flawed reasoning. you are missing so much information in that comparison it is not even funny.

straight comparisons based on 1-2 stats is flawed and not befitting an admin on this board to make.
 
What information am I missing? It's a proper reasoning for starting an analysis. Germany and the United States are both first world countries with similar underlying principles, a mixed population, and enough similar factors to warrant a direct comparison.

Again, this would not be a valid comparison to make if the United States was like Somalia or Afghanistan. But it is not.
 
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