Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
In retrospective, it feels like Agility was far, far too important. Yet, I can't seem to think of a way of rebalancing it.
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
Rebalancing SPECIAL
- Thread starter Atomic Postman
- Start date
Iprovidelittlepianos
Vault Senior Citizen
Perhaps you could make it so your action point count is affected by multiple stats, like Wasteland 2 did?
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
I feel like Endurance could make sense, as it's meant to represent physicality / physical ability. Perception might be a better choice as Endurance governing Health as well might then make End more important.
I like it the way it is.
This way we can have a near sighted pacifist that can still run away from combat. And we can have a tough fighter that can hold his own in a fight. We can have a wimpy doctor that can still be useful in combat, etc.
If we start changing what attributes affect AP, we will force people to always have tough nimble characters, or nimble eagle eyed characters... Paradoxically, with more attributes affecting AP, the game and characters get too restrictive.
If you have a slow moving character (low Agility) then the wasteland should eat you up, just like a wounded baby deer against a tiger.
Let's be honest, the problem here is not the attributes, the problem here is how every character needs as much AP as they can get. If you change how characters get AP, Agility stops being a problem. If you make it so the character gains AP when it gains a certain amount of levels, this problem would be gone, lets say a character starts with 5 AP and gains 1 max AP each 4 levels (while gaining a perk each 3 levels as normal) by level 20 the character will have the 10 Max AP.
No matter what type of character you have. You will never be forced to boost your AGL anymore.
Another way of "fixing" this issue would be with special Perks. Perks that reduce how much AP is consumed by doing actions in battle or add extra AP in battle. These perks could be rewards for doing steps of the main quest or gotten from exploring certain dungeons or something like that.
Yet another way of dealing with this, is by adding weapon and armor modifications and/or miscellaneous items and chems that would boost a character AP. Or reduce the AP needed for actions.
Another way is making the character having two different AP values, that are used in different things. For example having an AP value for offensive actions (shooting weapon, throwing explosive, punching, etc) and an AP value for moving and neutral/defensive actions (reload a weapons, using an item from inventory, running away, etc).
After using these "fixes", all the developer has to do is make it so there's a maximum AP limit.
This way we can have a near sighted pacifist that can still run away from combat. And we can have a tough fighter that can hold his own in a fight. We can have a wimpy doctor that can still be useful in combat, etc.
If we start changing what attributes affect AP, we will force people to always have tough nimble characters, or nimble eagle eyed characters... Paradoxically, with more attributes affecting AP, the game and characters get too restrictive.
If you have a slow moving character (low Agility) then the wasteland should eat you up, just like a wounded baby deer against a tiger.
Let's be honest, the problem here is not the attributes, the problem here is how every character needs as much AP as they can get. If you change how characters get AP, Agility stops being a problem. If you make it so the character gains AP when it gains a certain amount of levels, this problem would be gone, lets say a character starts with 5 AP and gains 1 max AP each 4 levels (while gaining a perk each 3 levels as normal) by level 20 the character will have the 10 Max AP.
No matter what type of character you have. You will never be forced to boost your AGL anymore.
Another way of "fixing" this issue would be with special Perks. Perks that reduce how much AP is consumed by doing actions in battle or add extra AP in battle. These perks could be rewards for doing steps of the main quest or gotten from exploring certain dungeons or something like that.
Yet another way of dealing with this, is by adding weapon and armor modifications and/or miscellaneous items and chems that would boost a character AP. Or reduce the AP needed for actions.
Another way is making the character having two different AP values, that are used in different things. For example having an AP value for offensive actions (shooting weapon, throwing explosive, punching, etc) and an AP value for moving and neutral/defensive actions (reload a weapons, using an item from inventory, running away, etc).
After using these "fixes", all the developer has to do is make it so there's a maximum AP limit.
Iprovidelittlepianos
Vault Senior Citizen
An idea I’ve had for a while was to have some kind of “fatigue” feature in the game that would apply to longer combat scenarios. Your action points would be reduced after a certain amount of turns, and continue to be reduced as your character becomes more tired. This way you could have a high AG low END character be able to take a lot of actions in the first few turns, but as combat goes on his action points per turn would rapidly be reduced, giving an average or high END enemy the action point advantage. This might not be very fun ingame though.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
I like it the way it is.
This way we can have a near sighted pacifist that can still run away from combat. And we can have a tough fighter that can hold his own in a fight. We can have a wimpy doctor that can still be useful in combat, etc.
If we start changing what attributes affect AP, we will force people to always have tough nimble characters, or nimble eagle eyed characters... Paradoxically, with more attributes affecting AP, the game and characters get too restrictive.
If you have a slow moving character (low Agility) then the wasteland should eat you up, just like a wounded baby deer against a tiger.
Let's be honest, the problem here is not the attributes, the problem here is how every character needs as much AP as they can get. If you change how characters get AP, Agility stops being a problem. If you make it so the character gains AP when it gains a certain amount of levels, this problem would be gone, lets say a character starts with 5 AP and gains 1 max AP each 4 levels (while gaining a perk each 3 levels as normal) by level 20 the character will have the 10 Max AP.
No matter what type of character you have. You will never be forced to boost your AGL anymore.
Another way of "fixing" this issue would be with special Perks. Perks that reduce how much AP is consumed by doing actions in battle or add extra AP in battle. These perks could be rewards for doing steps of the main quest or gotten from exploring certain dungeons or something like that.
Yet another way of dealing with this, is by adding weapon and armor modifications and/or miscellaneous items and chems that would boost a character AP. Or reduce the AP needed for actions.
Another way is making the character having two different AP values, that are used in different things. For example having an AP value for offensive actions (shooting weapon, throwing explosive, punching, etc) and an AP value for moving and neutral/defensive actions (reload a weapons, using an item from inventory, running away, etc).
After using these "fixes", all the developer has to do is make it so there's a maximum AP limit.
All very good points. Truthfully this was a stealth thread for my PnP as I remember a criticism of some of my players was how absurdly essential pumping AGL was and how making a low AGL character basically just wasn't a consideration.
I think ultimately making Action Boy and bonus move earlier and more universally boilerplate perks would also remedy this.
Speaking of balancing other SPECIAL, I think Charisma as a dump stat could be remedied by it taking more of a firm stance in dialogue. I liked Barter taking a front seat in New Vegas and being almost an alternative type of Speech specifically for money related topics, and I think Charisma could be the same. Whereas Speech could be reserved for strong monologues or rational/inspired lines of argument, for those dialogue checks where it's mostly about being silver tongued charming bastard, replace it with Charisma in all incidents. Similarly, I thought the Fallout 2 charisma/companions formula was very elegant, but I can see in a 3D setting how five companions would be rather broken.
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FNV uses Charisma as a way of boosting your companions.
In a P&P environment, I could see a charismatic character that would give small passive bonuses to their companions. Kinda like a good leader that inspires others around them to give their 110% in a stressful situation.
In a P&P environment, I could see a charismatic character that would give small passive bonuses to their companions. Kinda like a good leader that inspires others around them to give their 110% in a stressful situation.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
I had perks to that effect for high Charisma characters, but in the PnP I also had individual charisma directly impact the attitudes of NPCs. My low Charisma players would have difficult and awkward conversations with NPCs . Obviously something far easier to do than in a video game.
Maybe you could have Charisma tied to Speech/Barter check difficulty, so at certain marks of low Charisma, modifiers are added to all checks to make them more difficult. A 55 becomes a 70, or whatever. With average range Charisma (5-7) having no benefit or change, and high Charisma offering benefits.
Maybe that's a dumb idea and could be covered by base Speech/Barter being more strongly governed by Charisma (i.e 4x Charisma). I don't know.
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ThatZenoGuy
Residential Zealous Evolved Nano Organism
Yeah in classic fallouts, Agility is king, the ability to fire twice per turn as opposed to just once is too powerful (or outrun melee enemies while shooting them in the face).
Charisma was okay if you wanted to use companions, but vanilla companions...Aren't too special, some getting rather weak by endgame like Goris, Marcus, etc, when you could be slapping powerarmor on Lenny and watch him be almost immortal.
Perception was a pretty key stat, basically allowing you to shoot things from further away, always nice to have.
So ultimately you end up with a build which has 'enough' strength to carry whatever weapon you want to use (minus four, cos power armor gives you that much, forward thinkin!), maxxed agility or close to it, high endurance, low charisma, decent perception to actually hit things, and 10 luck for sniper lols.
IIRC my build was to start with 8 luck and use the magic huboligist scan to get another 2.
Charisma was okay if you wanted to use companions, but vanilla companions...Aren't too special, some getting rather weak by endgame like Goris, Marcus, etc, when you could be slapping powerarmor on Lenny and watch him be almost immortal.
Perception was a pretty key stat, basically allowing you to shoot things from further away, always nice to have.
So ultimately you end up with a build which has 'enough' strength to carry whatever weapon you want to use (minus four, cos power armor gives you that much, forward thinkin!), maxxed agility or close to it, high endurance, low charisma, decent perception to actually hit things, and 10 luck for sniper lols.
IIRC my build was to start with 8 luck and use the magic huboligist scan to get another 2.
Iprovidelittlepianos
Vault Senior Citizen
I’m thinking if you wanted to go that route then you might as well just have a minimum Charisma level to pass the Speech/Barter check. Might make the math a little easier than having to throw in all these modifiers together.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Thinking on things - might SPECIAL be more balanced and produce characters with more natural strengths and weaknesses if the surplus points given to you was 3 instead of 5?
You can't max out any SPECIAL unless you subtract from elsewhere - being average really means you can't be exceptional. Or would it just encourage middle of the road characters because people don't want to subtract?
Thoughts?
You can't max out any SPECIAL unless you subtract from elsewhere - being average really means you can't be exceptional. Or would it just encourage middle of the road characters because people don't want to subtract?
Thoughts?
Charisma should primarily affect one's ability to recruit and influence companions, I believe. New Vegas and 2 are the two games that probably di of best - New Vegas with the damage bonus, 2 with the number of companion slots. I'd say that an hypothetical new Fallout game should mix both things: higher companion bonus, but also more companions. Specifically, anyons should be able to acquire 1 robot or animal follower, like ED-E or Rex independently of their CHA, but the first humanoid companion should be locked behind a CHA of 5 (Average) and the second one behind a CHA of 10, for up to 3 followers if the protagonist is a very "charming" individual. Furthermore, I liked The Outer Worlds' basic companion perk system, so if something similar was ever introduced, then Charisma should play a role in it.
Slaughter Manslaught
Vault Senior Citizen
Here's my ten cents, more from a Classic Fallout perspective:
ST: This stat has issues.
1. Strength is too easy to up. In FO1 you could gain +4 ST, +3 from PA and +1 from implant. FO2 allowed you to up ST in six points (+3/4 PA/APA, +1 Implant, +1 Gain Stat perk). So the perfect ST was 6/5/4. Any subsequent points were lost because it only goes up to 10.
2. Strength is borderline useless. Lemme see what ST does:
- Carry more stuff
- A slight HP increase
- A pretty bad melee attack buff (+1 melee damage if you 7-10 ST? Yawn)
- Can use heavier weapons (but if you do anyway, without the necessary ST, you get a skill debuff... which can be compensated with cheap skill points)
- Can unjam some doors (very rare)
3. Stats can't go beyond 10. This means any point above a certain number is pretty much wasted. If we could go beyond 10, it would be more useful to invest above a X number.
PE: VERY good stat. I think the only issue with it is that the PE calculations are bugged and AFAIK PE doesn't help accuracy beyond 7 PE.
EN: Really useless. The HP increase is too weak, it really doesn't do much aside from a few perks, stuff like Poison and Rad resistance is too marginal. You just need 4 EN in order to get the Lifegiver Perk and not be too fragile. If something like Fatigue was a thing, I could see it being more useful.
Personally, I think the real solution is to abandon HP increases per level and go with fixed HP according to ST/EN, traits and perks. This way, your starting EN matters A LOT. Wanna be a Joshua Graham-style invincible man? Up that EN. This would also get rid of HP bloat, and make the cliched "Diplosniper" character actually pretty frail up close.
Bringing in a fatigue mechanic would rock, too. And honestly, more EN perks in general - for example, a perk allowing you to use left-over APs and fatigue to get an extra attack at the cost of sapping fatigue, like in Arcanum.
And honestly, more EN tests in dialogue and actions. And more EN links to skills.
I will talk about the others later.
Van Buren AFAIK was going with a different agility formula. AFAIK, a 10 AG character would have +30% AP than a 1 AG character (or was it a 5?). Van Buren was also going to have a larger AP pool to represent a more granular action pool.
@hexer remembers it better than me, surely.
ST: This stat has issues.
1. Strength is too easy to up. In FO1 you could gain +4 ST, +3 from PA and +1 from implant. FO2 allowed you to up ST in six points (+3/4 PA/APA, +1 Implant, +1 Gain Stat perk). So the perfect ST was 6/5/4. Any subsequent points were lost because it only goes up to 10.
2. Strength is borderline useless. Lemme see what ST does:
- Carry more stuff
- A slight HP increase
- A pretty bad melee attack buff (+1 melee damage if you 7-10 ST? Yawn)
- Can use heavier weapons (but if you do anyway, without the necessary ST, you get a skill debuff... which can be compensated with cheap skill points)
- Can unjam some doors (very rare)
3. Stats can't go beyond 10. This means any point above a certain number is pretty much wasted. If we could go beyond 10, it would be more useful to invest above a X number.
PE: VERY good stat. I think the only issue with it is that the PE calculations are bugged and AFAIK PE doesn't help accuracy beyond 7 PE.
EN: Really useless. The HP increase is too weak, it really doesn't do much aside from a few perks, stuff like Poison and Rad resistance is too marginal. You just need 4 EN in order to get the Lifegiver Perk and not be too fragile. If something like Fatigue was a thing, I could see it being more useful.
Personally, I think the real solution is to abandon HP increases per level and go with fixed HP according to ST/EN, traits and perks. This way, your starting EN matters A LOT. Wanna be a Joshua Graham-style invincible man? Up that EN. This would also get rid of HP bloat, and make the cliched "Diplosniper" character actually pretty frail up close.
Bringing in a fatigue mechanic would rock, too. And honestly, more EN perks in general - for example, a perk allowing you to use left-over APs and fatigue to get an extra attack at the cost of sapping fatigue, like in Arcanum.
And honestly, more EN tests in dialogue and actions. And more EN links to skills.
I will talk about the others later.
Van Buren AFAIK was going with a different agility formula. AFAIK, a 10 AG character would have +30% AP than a 1 AG character (or was it a 5?). Van Buren was also going to have a larger AP pool to represent a more granular action pool.
@hexer remembers it better than me, surely.
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Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
I agree that the Fatigue system suggested by VB would have been great, and I'm actually adapting it into my PnP system. Though I think the concequences needed some tweaking, I think the end product would have had too many people fainting in combat. Perhaps a "Fatigued" status effect that halves your AP and grants bonuses to your attackers and subtractions from your own hit chance, and if you acrue a particular amount of Fatigue whilst you are already Fatigued, that's when you KO.
I have tried to take away importance from stacking AGL in my PnP by making it so that Action Boy (3 Ranks) is available from the earliest Perk selection and I am considering implementing a "Sprint" action that allows you to double your movement hex/AP ratio at the cost of incurring large chunks of Fatigue.
I disagree on HP though - for one I don't think Fallout suffers too badly from HP bloat primarily because weapon damage tends to scale with NPC HP anyway, which allows for situations of your character being totally outmatched (Level 1 Vault Dweller going to Mariposa) or being unchallenged (post-Navarro Chosen One bringing down Metzger) and everything that comes in between with Fallout's way of handling levelling. Those sorts of situations are still possible with fixed HP but I think they'd be more confined and difficult to balance.
I think perhaps a solution might be making the formula for HP (start and gain) more disparate between Endurance levels so that low Endurance barely advances in HP versus the immutable tanks of high Endurance.
Similarly I also think poison resistance is fine as a mechanic and it's just a matter of context. If you had say, the ability for enemies to poison their weapons (Like the Vipers) and they actively used this as a tactic, being able to reliably and regularly negate that poison damage could be a huge factor in combat. New Vegas already moved towards this direction by having high-level poisonous threats in the Cazadores.
You get a skill debuff despite having adequate strength for heavy weapons?
Gizmojunk
Antediluvian as Feck
Think about the reverse; how can stats be used to limit the character?
For instance [a low] Agility can be used to create a PC with very poor physical control, and as such suffers greatly in matters of mobility—like combat. If multiple stats are made to influence common factors, how then can the player create a klutz(?); or a muscle-bound klutz, or a clumsy PC with an iron constitution(?), or —"run Forest run!", a PC who is fast and able to run for hours because they are driven by resolute concentration, yet is one who is not at all cat-like in their agility.
IMO it is a mistake to seek ways both to make the PC easier to empower, and/or to make them more difficult to handicap.
For instance [a low] Agility can be used to create a PC with very poor physical control, and as such suffers greatly in matters of mobility—like combat. If multiple stats are made to influence common factors, how then can the player create a klutz(?); or a muscle-bound klutz, or a clumsy PC with an iron constitution(?), or —"run Forest run!", a PC who is fast and able to run for hours because they are driven by resolute concentration, yet is one who is not at all cat-like in their agility.
IMO it is a mistake to seek ways both to make the PC easier to empower, and/or to make them more difficult to handicap.