Religion vs Law- or why isn't polygamy kosher?

welsh

Junkmaster
Yes, those Mormons are at it again. Why swap wives when you can have a few?

Religion and the law

A brewing storm

Oct 13th 2005 | COLORADO CITY
From The Economist print edition


An increasingly nasty battle between a strict polygamous sect and the state

THIS small Arizona town on the Utah border looks idyllic enough. Mountains loom behind it, tomatoes grow wild, and children trot past on pet ponies. But when Gary Engels, the Mohave County state investigator, does his morning rounds in Colorado City, drivers try to run him down, women in long skirts call him a bastard and small boys spit at him. “They hate me,” sighs the state investigator, dodging another truck.

Nothing quite like getting spat at by small boys.

Such hostility conveys the growing tension between the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), America's largest independent polygamist group, and outsiders. The 10,000-member sect dominates Colorado City and the neighbouring town of Hildale. In June, as a result of Mr Engels's snooping, the leader of FLDS, Warren Jeffs, was indicted on two charges to do with organising child-bride marriages; he fled immediately. Eight other members, who turned themselves in, face similar charges, which they deny.

10,000 members? Obey the law of God! Screw many and frequently!

What right does the law of man have to condemn such behavior!

Child brides? Oh please! People have been marrying off children for thousands of years! Glory be to God!

The FLDS used to be a rebel offshoot of the Mormon church. Its members believe they are the chosen people, Mr Jeffs is their prophet and everyone else is damned. Members also openly practise polygamy. This is illegal but there are no penalties cited in the Arizona constitution.

And if you are The Chosen People, why should you listen to the "not-so-Chosen People"?

The current dispute has to do with two different sets of former FLDS members. The first are the “lost boys”, disillusioned rebellious teenagers who have been ousted from the FLDS and dumped in towns such as Hurricane, Utah. They are the source of many of the accusations against Mr Jeffs. Lawyers in Salt Lake City, working on behalf of the young men, claim that Mr Jeffs forced families to kick them out and cite both emotional and physical abuse.

The second, equally embittered, group are older excommunicated property owners. Rather than moving away and “repenting from afar,” as FLDS leaders insist they should, these refuseniks have stuck around to reclaim their homes. All the homes and chattels of FLDS members belong to a United Effort Plan which holds the property in trust. Now state officials are trying to let former members reclaim “their” homes.

Meanwhile, another battle is raging in the Colorado City Unified School District. Teachers claim school funds were pilfered by FLDS leaders. The state has petitioned to put the district into receivership; the district is arguing back. A special state Board of Education meeting on October 20th will decide whether the FLDS can retain its financial control. And to put even more pressure on the city, Arizona's attorney-general has just announced a federal civil-rights review of the police department.

And so mixing law and politics becomes messy- until one side wins and the other loses.

There can be only one hegemon! And they have God on their side.

All this is making the FLDS fight for its life, says Benjamin Bistline, a local historian. Its members fear a repeat of the mass police raid of July 1953, where scores of men were arrested and children were separated from their parents.

Much like the raid on Innsmouth, MA in 1928.

Colorado City and Hildale have become very tense towns. FLDS homes are distinguished by huge fences and “No Trespassing” signs. Members separate themselves from non-members by their clothes: the men in long-sleeved shirts, the women in long dresses. Outsiders have never been particularly welcome anyway; Colorado City boasts no hotel, bar or café, just a post office, a corner shop and a tiny milk store.

Mr Engels is not the only harassed local. The teacher who revealed the alleged misuse of school funds wound up with his windows smashed. A couple who spoke to a television station last year had rubbish thrown on their driveway. Ousted children quiver before journalists lest their parents, who are still members, are punished. “This is like communism,” says Guy Johnson, a construction worker in Hurricane who left the group 20 years ago. “You leave penniless and alone because even your family turn on you.”

Commies and Christians!
CCR, you might be interested in noting that in Iran there has been a strange mix of Islam and Marxism. Who says they don't go together.

Even so, the exiles are fighting back. Enough lost boys returned over the summer for the North Mohave Community College's Colorado City campus to start a general education course designed to equip the ousted teenagers for the modern world. Most have been to a private school that teaches Mr Jeffs's beliefs.

The former homeowners meet fortnightly to work out their strategy. Andrew Chatwin was thrown out 15 years ago after confronting Mr Jeffs. His Mormon wife, Michelle, and their four small children stay at the cramped home of Uncle Marvin, a former FLDS member with 32 children from his four wives. Their handsome grey stucco property lies uninhabited, but monitored by church members a block away. “I won't stop till I get the deed,” Mr Chatwin says.

A family that loves together, stays together. Wonder what to expect when the kids start mixing it up (after all there are 32 of them).

Then again, maybe this is where the characters from "The Hills Have Eyes" got their start.

Some form of showdown looks inevitable. Mr Bistline reckons half the group will leave once Mr Jeffs, thought to be in either Mexico or Texas, is caught. The exiles claim all they want is a return to the freer life they enjoyed before Mr Jeffs took control. At the back of Uncle Marvin's property, a can of fly spray lies in the children's playhouse. Neighbours threw it, the children say. Mr Chatwin refuses to budge. “I was born here, and we won't leave our family or roots.”
[/quote

I wonder if they could get away with this in Mexico? Maybe in a couple of hundred years Mexico could be the ZIon for Mormons?
 
One day I want to start a cult.

Especially if I could do it with something as silly as the Book of Mormon.
 
I thought the Mormons were against violence and strife? Or is that the Quaker sect? Isn't that just a cereal? You Americants have taken religious freedom to insane levels. I almost prefer good ol Iran, myself.
 
Quakers are all about non-violence. The soul of God exists in all things- so non-violence is the way to go.

The Mormons are usually gung-ho patriot. Big place for recruitment for both the military and CIA.

Maybe it has to do with the fact if you believe the Book of Mormon than you are willing to believe just about anything.
 
Kotario...and everyone read this.

Ya know how I keep saying I hold some subjects back, but they just get brought up by others and I'm forced into painfully repressing memories of dealing with them? This is one...

I lived in a Los Angeles neighborhood with two Catholic churches, a Protestant church, a Unitarian Church, and even a Jewish temple. Everyone was happy and no one fought or had so much as a negative thought as far as I knew.

Then the Baptist and Mormon church were established there. Thats when things got bad.

Well not openly. However amongst individuals that spoke it became clear that both groups wanted nothing, but the destruction of all the God obeying, peace-loving, groups that had been established in my corner of Los Angeles for dozens of years.

I became distant from a friend who though quite close became somewhat unhappy with my Catholicism since he was a Baptist. I attempted to make friends with the Mormons and even ask about their religion...they were distant always and often wary of my questions.

Thats when bad things started happening. The statue of the Virgin Mary in front of one of the Catholic churches had its head shattered at night and no one knew who did it. The Jewish temple was vandalized (I never saw it, but a friend told me.) with graffiti.

I made friends with the people across the street...they had left the Mormon church so I heard and those guys the "elders" kept showing up at the door. Everyone's door.

I grew up with a few constant friends. One was Jewish, one Muslim, two Baptist, one Atheist, one Buddhist, and one Catholic.

Plus this is all related to how I viewed religion to begin with.

Oh God I've had this psychological battle in my mind going on for the past year in my head...often on a daily basis. Its come to the point where I can think of and argue separate points in my head and not feel distressed or distracted at all. Really this was just the re-surgance of something that happened long ago and recently culminated in an act I couldnt contemplate.

Ok Kotario, everyone. I said I'd write the story in a few weeks. Screw it I'll have it done in a few days. I wont play any games and stall my browsing. The sooner this gets out of my mind and onto a medium to record the sooner I can feel free of it and maybe come to a conclusion.

Thank you...

Sincerely Exacerbated,
The Vault Dweller
 
I was friends with a Mormon for several years. Apparently he decided that he'd rather hang out with others who were also Mormon more, since I had politely declined his invitations to "check out their church next Sunday.", several times.

Ugh.
 
Lazarus Plus said:
I was friends with a Mormon for several years. Apparently he decided that he'd rather hang out with others who were also Mormon more, since I had politely declined his invitations to "check out their church next Sunday.", several times.

Ugh.

I've always felt (Though not yet prove if possible to prove such a thing.) that belief in God is something that must be completely voluntary and without the interference of others.

You decide you believe in God and you take up the study of religion to discover more about it. The relationship is between God and you.

Anything like "I'm doing it for a friend!" is really a form of interference and the very chaining of free will.

Think about it if God were to force you to worship him then we'd all practice religion and all in the same way. Why the difference? Well as evidenced by the kind and just nature God is depicted in by the world's various religions, God thinks its bad to control people. Control is something people use to hurt others. Leaving people alone to their freedom is considering an act of kindness. Thus wouldnt God want you to freely choose him? After all if someone chooses God only through being forced to worship isnt that the same as someone who only worships to please others who want them to worship? Isnt that a form of dishonesty to pledge loyalty to God, but in your heart to only be doing out of obligation and not by choice?

Thats why we have free will. He wouldnt want anyone who doesnt love him to try to pretend they believe, because others are forcing them. That only makes the those forcing appear to disrespect God's thought that humans should have souls and also to side with evil by blatantly thinking the use of force is somehow positive to a God that doesnt like that. Thank God.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
The_Vault_Dweller said:
I've always felt (Though not yet prove if possible to prove such a thing.) that belief in God is something that must be completely voluntary and without the interference of others.

You decide you believe in God and you take up the study of religion to discover more about it. The relationship is between God and you.
It would be completely awesome if it was like that, too bad it totally isn't. If everyone just decided for him/herself what to 'believe' it would be easier to 'just get along' seeing as how much conflict something as distant from this mortal coil as religion has caused. (Meaning that whether there is a God or not doesn't really matter, and that one who walks around in fear of going to hell if he's been a bad christian might as well fear growing an ass on his forehead and being raped by Jebus. Like, where do the odds come from?)


The_Vault_Dweller said:
Thats why we have free will. He wouldnt want anyone who doesnt love him to try to pretend they believe, because others are forcing them. That only makes the those forcing appear to disrespect God's thought that humans should have souls and also to side with evil by blatantly thinking the use of force is somehow positive to a God that doesnt like that. Thank God.
One cannot 'decide' whether to love someone/something or not. Most people who love God do so because they were raised with it; they were taught to. Give me a newborn child and I could teach it to believe something ten times as preposterous as the Bible being a holy book to be certain.
 
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