Right-Wing Extremism

I would assume Jebus would have the intellectual honesty to admit that a 35 hour work week is economic suicide, therefore did not feel the need to argue further on the point.

Economics are not my strong point. History, theology, philosophy...none of these are involved here.
 
You can't assume anything in a debate. You always have to present all parts of your argument, and leave no stone unturned. If your basis is backed up with historical document and or fact, it should be hard to counter.

Yet you lack the effort required to be truly convincing.

Its a shame.
 
I lack the conviction to go into detail, frankly. Defending a wattered down version of Objectivism is quite difficult for me, considering my recent religious and social makeover.
 
*sigh*

CCR, when, oh when will you cease to think in categories of labels? "label X does this, label Y does this and is that"

It's a bit all too stereotypical, isn't it? It's just easier to label people and try to work out the world like a puzzle, taking groups of people, labelling them and trying to make a picture out of it. It'd be definitely easier. So much easier.

Too bad people aren't sportswear brands. Or not.
 
What the fuck? CCR learned to spell! Weeeeee.

Also, as I've said before in different arguments, you can't generalize like that over the entirety of Europe, because the situations are completely different in almost every country. The Netherlands, for instance, has a really good educational system, but that doesn't mean that France's system is any good.
Oh, and I agree with Wooz.
 
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but by 2015 Belgium will have an underemployment rate of 15%.
Sources, sources....

I heard it in an open lecture at my university a couple of months ago. Normally, I'd be happy to oblige and look for sources for you - but I really, really don't have time for that right now. I've still got way to much studying to do, and I'm trying to keep this as short as possible.


I'm sorry, but I really don't see what limiting working hours has to do with educated labour. Really.
That's the reason France is about as economiclly competitive as a two legged race horse.

Why on earth anyone would ever set up an industry in a nation with a 35 hour work week is beyond me. And EU economic growth is hurting because of that.

This is precisely what I was talking about. YES, perhaps it 'hurts' European economic growth. But European economic growth has ALWAYS been 'hurting' in comparison to American economic growth. Why? Because we're not some nitwits sitting around masturbating to economic growth rates. We've got different priorities, and that's why Europe is such a better place to live in than the USA.

As I said, the problem will solve itself - in the end. I don't really believe in those doom visions where Europe dissolves into a civil war between muslims and ethic Europeans. Also - European nationalism has by now toned down to the point where there hardly is any nationalism left. At any rate, I find it amusing that an American would lecture a Belgian on chauvinism and nationalism. Removeth thee the trunk from thy own eye, or however that goes in English.

The continued health of the American state, nor the economy, are based on American 'chauvinism and nationalism'. American c&v have absolutley no impact on our ability to American-ify immigrants. EU c&v does.

Problem solves itself is'nt an answer to any question, in any event.

American chavinism and nationalism are immensely important for the continued health of the USA. I wonder how stable the country would be right now, if Americans somehow didn't have those strange beliefs that 'In War, a country must rally behind its president', that 'domestic stability is most important', and that 'America is the land of the free'. Really, it is chauvinism and nationalism that makes Americans blind - or unwilling to act- against the injustices that is inflicted upon the common citizen and poor, defenceless foreign countries. If the Belgian government would act like the American did, actually, the Parliament would be burned down by now.

And I fail to see how chauvinism and nationalism have any impact on the 'continued health' or economy of European states. Really now.


Where does the EU demand of its corporations that they spread out all over the continent? I have never heard of such a law.
Airbus eliminates all possiblity of profit by doing just that.
The two assembly plants of Airbus are in Toulouse, France and Hamburg, Germany.

Airbus, however, has a number of other plants in different European countries, reflecting its foundation as a consortium. An original solution to the problem of moving aircraft parts between the different factories and the assembly plants is the use of "Beluga" specially enlarged jets, capable of carrying entire sections of fuselage of Airbus aircraft. An exception to this scheme is the upcoming A380, whose fuselage and wings are too large for sections to be carried by the Beluga. Large A380 parts are brought by ship to Bordeaux, and then trucked to the Toulouse assembly plant. The road had to be specially enlarged to accommodate the special convoys.

Yeah, that doesn't prove shit.


I wonder how America's industry would be doing if it's government didn't wage war and supress its own citizens for the sake of its competitiveness.

Apparently, you have yet to get into Economics 101, as military contracts are subsidies; they are'nt. Contracts have to go through Congress and a thousand diffirent investigations before you start getting into multi-billion dollar contracts.

I would also point out that lucerative military contracts are pretty competitve. America purchases several diffirent, non-American defense systems; look at the Harrier Jet.

Also, the Iraq war simply could never have been profitable, ever. Haliburton has made billions, yes, but due to proporganda it is now unlikely to ever get anything from anybody outside the government. American economy has largely stagnated due to the threat of the war getting worse.

Hà! I never even thought of the entire Halliburton situation. Really.
I'm talking about the fact that the US government wages war to ensure its flow of cheap oil.
Or do you really still believe Bush invaded Iraq because of WMD?

I also have no idea what you mean by 'supress it's own citizens.' The American economy is what it is because of the lack of government intervention outside of the basic quality assurance. Generally, it's the opposite, with the free market sticking it's tendrils into the American government.

When a government chooses the side of the rich citizens in the Class Struggle, then it automatically opresses it's own citizens - since it's the proletariat that makes up the vast majority of every Western civilization. If a government gives tax cuts to the wealthy, eliminates practically all social welfare so its companies can make even more money, when it takes opressive measures such as the 'patriot act' to ensure stability and thus economic certainty, when it lies to its population about the reason why it goes to war, and when it generally treats it own citizens like ignorant pieces of filth, that's 'opressing it's own citizens' in my book.

And if you are to argue moral superiority in terms of economic policies, who had more economic ties to pre-Saddam Iraq, the US or Europe?

Oh come on, don't give me this old argument again, wrong-written as it may be. Who has more economic (and political) ties to Saudi Arabia, Israël, .... - the US or Europe?

Ehm... Yes. So that's where those immigrants come in. Have you magically transformed yourself into me when you wrote that argument, maybe? Because that's precisely what I'm saying.
Never in history has an undereducated, unassimilated, largely alienated immigrant population been ever to make up for drastic population falls in the native population.

It did - in Europe during the sixties and seventies.

That's like arguing that Völkerwanderung would make up for failed population growth among Romanized population.

1. The Romanized population in 300 ad didn't have any problems with population growth

2. That must be the worst argument I've ever seen. Unless of course you are so racist to believe that Muslims act the same way the Huns did.
"Beware! The Muslims are going to sack Brussel!"

It's what we do, and we're damn good at it. Europe's economy will still be left standing when the American one has long collapsed in its own greed, lack of consumer base and lack of education.
None of this has any basis in fact. American education gaps are made up for by our superior College system,

'Superior College system'? What, you have like four or five good colleges?
Meh - you know, I'm not going to into that. I don't have that much time to waste.

Lack of consumer base? Que?

America has a poverty rate of 13%. And since the economic gap is widening, and most people have take two jobs in the USA to be able to make a decent living, that's only going to grow. And we all know what happens when consumer bases decline - just look at the Great Depression. Hell, the situation is already worse now in the USA than the one that started the GD.

Greed? Yes, but in terms of Economics I've yet to see that be a negative. Traditionally, a culture that prides itself on not beeing as greedy as another is in decline.

See above.
 
This is precisely what I was talking about. YES, perhaps it 'hurts' European economic growth. But European economic growth has ALWAYS been 'hurting' in comparison to American economic growth. Why? Because we're not some nitwits sitting around masturbating to economic growth rates. We've got different priorities, and that's why Europe is such a better place to live in than the USA.
Some of this may be true, but the last time I checked Germany had a negative economic growth. I'd like to see you rationalize that.

And I fail to see how chauvinism and nationalism have any impact on the 'continued health' or economy of European states. Really now.
You just did'nt adress the issue. In order for the EU to safely deal with massive immigration from the Middle East, you'd have to get rid of any traces of nationalism or even understanding of what 'Europe' means.

Hà! I never even thought of the entire Halliburton situation. Really.
I'm talking about the fact that the US government wages war to ensure its flow of cheap oil.
Or do you really still believe Bush invaded Iraq because of WMD?
Totally bullshit argument. If we went to war with nations over Oil, Chavez would long ago have found his place in a graveyard. It's just bullshit.

When a government chooses the side of the rich citizens in the Class Struggle, then it automatically opresses it's own citizens - since it's the proletariat that makes up the vast majority of every Western civilization. If a government gives tax cuts to the wealthy, eliminates practically all social welfare so its companies can make even more money, when it takes opressive measures such as the 'patriot act' to ensure stability and thus economic certainty, when it lies to its population about the reason why it goes to war, and when it generally treats it own citizens like ignorant pieces of filth, that's 'opressing it's own citizens' in my book.
Might have been cute pre-1991, but this really has nothing to do with anything.
Eliminates almost all social welfare? WTF? Welfare reform has been going on sense Clinton.
Tax cuts to the wealthy I'm not going to defend entirely, but they do give the most taxes.
So, you think the EU is run by the middle class? Maybe it's some kind of Psedodemocracy of the Proletariant? Get your head out of your ass. All nations are ruled by the upper classes. Some just make an attempt at looking like they are 'for the people'.

Oh come on, don't give me this old argument again, wrong-written as it may be. Who has more economic (and political) ties to Saudi Arabia, Israël, .... - the US or Europe?

Isreal is the only democracy in the Middle East, and it has a better human rights record then any of it's neighboors or any nation surrounding it.

Saudi Arabia is nessicary. I'd like to see what would happen to Europe if an Ultra-Fundie regiem kicked out the house of saud.

It did - in Europe during the sixties and seventies.
Assinine. Problems still exsist from Mid-East immigration to the area from the 60's and 70's, not to mention the rise of the NDP in Germany and anti-islamic prejudice. You seem to think every Moroccan immigrant found himself a nice 60 year old German wife to settle down with?

1. The Romanized population in 300 ad didn't have any problems with population growth
Where in population crisis after Hunnish invasion and a century of civil war.

2. That must be the worst argument I've ever seen. Unless of course you are so racist to believe that Muslims act the same way the Huns did.
Unless you can prove that by Völkerwanderung I meant the Altaic Hunns rather then the Germanic Goths, that's totally unnesicary and moronic.

'Superior College system'? What, you have like four or five good colleges?
Meh - you know, I'm not going to into that. I don't have that much time to waste.
Wow, you are ignorant. There's a reason millions of people from around the globe come to US College system, not to mention the fact that we have a MUCH higher rate of College attendance then the EU.

America has a poverty rate of 13%. And since the economic gap is widening, and most people have take two jobs in the USA to be able to make a decent living, that's only going to grow. And we all know what happens when consumer bases decline - just look at the Great Depression. Hell, the situation is already worse now in the USA than the one that started the GD.
:roll:
Two jobs? Statistics? Only going to grow? Statistics? Our poverty line is higher then yours, that does'nt make much sense. Squeeze is on the middle class as much due to outsourcing of jobs as anything else, and even then it's grossly overestimated.

The GD did'nt happen because of a failure of domestic consumer base, nitwit, it was because of the collapse of the European market leading to a fuckton of surplus wears. And, it should be noted, that for all everyone's prattiling, FDR's Euro-commie approach did nothing but prolong it.

If the Belgian government would act like the American did, actually, the Parliament would be burned down by now.
Yeah, just like the time those patriotic Belgian citizens stormed the Belgian Parliment during the Congo, right? :roll:
You have no right to call me a fanatic on anything after this.
 
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
This is precisely what I was talking about. YES, perhaps it 'hurts' European economic growth. But European economic growth has ALWAYS been 'hurting' in comparison to American economic growth. Why? Because we're not some nitwits sitting around masturbating to economic growth rates. We've got different priorities, and that's why Europe is such a better place to live in than the USA.
Some of this may be true, but the last time I checked Germany had a negative economic growth. I'd like to see you rationalize that.


strawman.gif



Also, the World Bank sez German economy is stagnating, not declining.

And I fail to see how chauvinism and nationalism have any impact on the 'continued health' or economy of European states. Really now.
You just did'nt adress the issue. In order for the EU to safely deal with massive immigration from the Middle East, you'd have to get rid of any traces of nationalism or even understanding of what 'Europe' means.

What does 'Europe' mean, then, that it is so incompatible with muslims? I'd like to remind you that Islam has played a mayor part in European history, and that many areas of South Eastern Europe are still muslim.

Hà! I never even thought of the entire Halliburton situation. Really.
I'm talking about the fact that the US government wages war to ensure its flow of cheap oil.
Or do you really still believe Bush invaded Iraq because of WMD?
Totally bullshit argument. If we went to war with nations over Oil, Chavez would long ago have found his place in a graveyard. It's just bullshit.

strawman.gif


When a government chooses the side of the rich citizens in the Class Struggle, then it automatically opresses it's own citizens - since it's the proletariat that makes up the vast majority of every Western civilization. If a government gives tax cuts to the wealthy, eliminates practically all social welfare so its companies can make even more money, when it takes opressive measures such as the 'patriot act' to ensure stability and thus economic certainty, when it lies to its population about the reason why it goes to war, and when it generally treats it own citizens like ignorant pieces of filth, that's 'opressing it's own citizens' in my book.
Might have been cute pre-1991, but this really has nothing to do with anything.

Oh sure, the social problems communism based itself on dissapeared when communism did, right?

Eliminates almost all social welfare? WTF? Welfare reform has been going on sense Clinton.

Yes... And? Welfare 'reform' seems to me like a cheap eufemism for Welfare 'Deconstruction'. However - European nations seem to be wanting to follow that lead, so we'll see where this all ends up.

Tax cuts to the wealthy I'm not going to defend entirely, but they do give the most taxes.

Yeah, they've got the most money too. Way too much money, while countless Americans have to scrape to get by. Hell, thousands of Americans have nothing but a piece of cardboard to keep them warm at night. In Europe, that's something you will very, very rarely see. I have never seen a hobo in my entire life, actually.

So, you think the EU is run by the middle class? Maybe it's some kind of Psedodemocracy of the Proletariant? Get your head out of your ass. All nations are ruled by the upper classes. Some just make an attempt at looking like they are 'for the people'.

strawman.gif


Oh come on, don't give me this old argument again, wrong-written as it may be. Who has more economic (and political) ties to Saudi Arabia, Israël, .... - the US or Europe?

Isreal is the only democracy in the Middle East, and it has a better human rights record then any of it's neighboors or any nation surrounding it.

strawman.gif


Saudi Arabia is nessicary. I'd like to see what would happen to Europe if an Ultra-Fundie regiem kicked out the house of saud.

If the Saudi's keep treating their citizens like they are treating them now, that seems inevitable.

Assinine.

Why thank you. You are such a skilled debater.

It did - in Europe during the sixties and seventies.
Problems still exsist from Mid-East immigration to the area from the 60's and 70's, not to mention the rise of the NDP in Germany and anti-islamic prejudice. You seem to think every Moroccan immigrant found himself a nice 60 year old German wife to settle down with?

Yeah. How does that relate to your question I answered, and I quote: "
Never in history has an undereducated, unassimilated, largely alienated immigrant population been ever to make up for drastic population falls in the native population."

So because it doesn't:

strawman.gif


1. The Romanized population in 300 ad didn't have any problems with population growth
Where in population crisis after Hunnish invasion and a century of civil war.

2. That must be the worst argument I've ever seen. Unless of course you are so racist to believe that Muslims act the same way the Huns did.
Unless you can prove that by Völkerwanderung I meant the Altaic Hunns rather then the Germanic Goths, that's totally unnesicary and moronic.

Yeah. To be honest, I didn't know what you meant by 'Völkerwanderung". I figured you meant the Huns.
Why didn't I know it? not because I'm ignorant of ancient history, but because I don't use... German terms. Why the hell would you use a German term? I have volumes of historic writing lying right next to me, and I have never come across any German terms. So next time you want to make completely unrelated historical references, at least use English terms, k?

'Superior College system'? What, you have like four or five good colleges?
Meh - you know, I'm not going to into that. I don't have that much time to waste.
Wow, you are ignorant. There's a reason millions of people from around the globe come to US College system,

'Millions'? And, there's also a reason why just as many people from around the globe come to European colleges.

not to mention the fact that we have a MUCH higher rate of College attendance then the EU.

Proof or stfu. I for one didn't find any figures on this.

America has a poverty rate of 13%. And since the economic gap is widening, and most people have take two jobs in the USA to be able to make a decent living, that's only going to grow. And we all know what happens when consumer bases decline - just look at the Great Depression. Hell, the situation is already worse now in the USA than the one that started the GD.
:roll:
Two jobs? Statistics? Only going to grow? Statistics?

Statistics? What the fuck is wrong with you? Do I really need to show you a statistic to show you the hard economic reality of America's die-hard capitalistic system? Come on CCR, you're not so alienated you didn't know about this, right?

Our poverty line is higher then yours, that does'nt make much sense.

Dude, there's not a single fucking difference between the Belgian poverty line and the American poverty line. Stop pulling things out of your ass.

Squeeze is on the middle class as much due to outsourcing of jobs as anything else, and even then it's grossly overestimated.

Yeah, thank you for agreeing with me. This is exaclty the kind of die-hard capitalism that's bad for the people I was talking about. Outsourcing is just another reason why the economic gap between the rich and the poor in the USA will continue to grow, and more and more people will fall below the poverty line. We in Europe face the same problem, but nobody's going to lose the roof over their head because of it - because we have different priorities in our economical system.


And what does this all have to do with muslim immigration again?
 
Also, the World Bank sez German economy is stagnating, not declining.
Last I checked, neither where positive indications of strength in the economy. And -0.01 GDP growth is declnining, far as I can tell.

What does 'Europe' mean, then, that it is so incompatible with muslims? I'd like to remind you that Islam has played a mayor part in European history, and that many areas of South Eastern Europe are still muslim.
Yes, it did. However, Muslim interaction with the West has generally boiled down to genocide and population exchanges. The Reconqista, Ottoman Expansion, Collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the total batshitification of the Balkans.

Frankly, I don't know how you can say there is a history of stablitiy in terms of Europe's relations with the Islamic World. Fuck man, maybe this is why certain members of NATO refused to go into Bosnia and Kosovo?

Oh sure, the social problems communism based itself on dissapeared when communism did, right?
Puh-leeze girlfriend. Bernstien noted that economic disparities decreased after signifigant industrialization. Ergo, the main problem Communism based itself on, that being wealth disparities growing during industrialization, was total bullshit.

Yes... And? Welfare 'reform' seems to me like a cheap eufemism for Welfare 'Deconstruction'. However - European nations seem to be wanting to follow that lead, so we'll see where this all ends up.
It's amusing that you can go from calling us heartless capitalists to admitting Europe is trying desperatly to do the same thing.

Yeah, they've got the most money too. Way too much money, while countless Americans have to scrape to get by. Hell, thousands of Americans have nothing but a piece of cardboard to keep them warm at night. In Europe, that's something you will very, very rarely see. I have never seen a hobo in my entire life, actually.
That has to be bullshit. A huge percentage of American homeless suffer from mental disabilites or are, more commonly, batshit insane. Frankly, I've seen MORE hobos in Birmingham and London then I have in equivilent cities in the US.

If the Saudi's keep treating their citizens like they are treating them now, that seems inevitable.
WTF do you suggest we do? Trying to make a Secular Republic in Arabia would be like trying to force Ayn Rand to live in a hippie commune.

Also, I frankly find it hilarious that the EU thinks it has the right to argue over morality of investing in questionable regiems. Can you say getting rid of arms embargo on China during Chinese military buildup for invasion of Taiwan, Jebus?

Why thank you. You are such a skilled debater.
.
Pot-kettle-black. Talented debates know that a pic of a strawman does about as much good as goatse.

Yeah. How does that relate to your question I answered, and I quote:
IT caused massive issues with minimal immigration and was'nt even the basis of the economy. WTF makes you think everything will be diffirent now?

Why didn't I know it? not because I'm ignorant of ancient history, but because I don't use... German terms. Why the hell would you use a German term? I have volumes of historic writing lying right next to me, and I have never come across any German terms. So next time you want to make completely unrelated historical references, at least use English terms, k?
Völkerwanderung? Dude, it should be fairly fucking obvious what it means. Wandering of the People? Germanic invasions?

'Millions'? And, there's also a reason why just as many people from around the globe come to European colleges.
Not nearly as many, and almost none of them stay. The British Uni system is near collapse due to a near total lack of foreign interest because American schools are superior.

Proof or stfu. I for one didn't find any figures on this.
I have no reason to provide information that should be readily availible, ESPECIALLY when you go on in the next paragraph to bitch about me not knowing the obivous.

My DK World Referance Atlas has the attendance of Tertiary Education in France at 35%, America's at 60. Then again, it also has Chirac as French president, so maybe it's outda....oh, yeah, right, Chirac's been the president for more then a decade. My mistake.

Yeah, thank you for agreeing with me. This is exaclty the kind of die-hard capitalism that's bad for the people I was talking about. Outsourcing is just another reason why the economic gap between the rich and the poor in the USA will continue to grow, and more and more people will fall below the poverty line. We in Europe face the same problem, but nobody's going to lose the roof over their head because of it - because we have different priorities in our economical system.
The EU is not immune to the global economy. There's a reason no company in their right mind would EVER set up shop in the EU.

America's Gini coefficient is a definate concern, and frakly it's a reason I'm no fan of the current administration, but it's one of the reasons we have been able to maintain our competitive economy thruough 50 years of economic dominance, while our competitors have faded away with new economic hotspots. Everyone remember when people talked about Germany and Japan taking over the US Economy?

You seem to have some pretty high minded critiscisms of the American way of life for not living here. I don't judge the EU on Anthem, it's absurd you get to judge us by Dogville.

And what does this all have to do with muslim immigration again?
I have absolutley no idea whatsoever.
 
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
Also, the World Bank sez German economy is stagnating, not declining.
Last I checked, neither where positive indications of strength in the economy. And -0.01 GDP growth is declnining, far as I can tell.

Last I checked, it said 0.00 GDP. But let's not dabble around with such small differences, shall we?

What does 'Europe' mean, then, that it is so incompatible with muslims? I'd like to remind you that Islam has played a mayor part in European history, and that many areas of South Eastern Europe are still muslim.
Yes, it did. However, Muslim interaction with the West has generally boiled down to genocide and population exchanges. The Reconqista, Ottoman Expansion, Collapse of the Ottoman Empire, the total batshitification of the Balkans.
Frankly, I don't know how you can say there is a history of stablitiy in terms of Europe's relations with the Islamic World.

If you were to use those criteria in your arbitrary decision on who should belong to Europe and who shouldn't, then, by the same logic, the Germans -nor the French- could be considered Europeans either.

Oh sure, the social problems communism based itself on dissapeared when communism did, right?
Puh-leeze girlfriend. Bernstien noted that economic disparities decreased after signifigant industrialization. Ergo, the main problem Communism based itself on, that being wealth disparities growing during industrialization, was total bullshit.

What? What kind of dribbel is that? And what the HELL does that have to do with the point? Are you putting up a strawman to defend your strawman now?
This is becoming ludicrous.

Yes... And? Welfare 'reform' seems to me like a cheap eufemism for Welfare 'Deconstruction'. However - European nations seem to be wanting to follow that lead, so we'll see where this all ends up.
It's amusing that you can go from calling us heartless capitalists to admitting Europe is trying desperatly to do the same thing.

Har har. Did you see me saying I agree with it? Does this have anything to do with the point?

Yeah, they've got the most money too. Way too much money, while countless Americans have to scrape to get by. Hell, thousands of Americans have nothing but a piece of cardboard to keep them warm at night. In Europe, that's something you will very, very rarely see. I have never seen a hobo in my entire life, actually.
That has to be bullshit. A huge percentage of American homeless suffer from mental disabilites or are, more commonly, batshit insane. Frankly, I've seen MORE hobos in Birmingham and London then I have in equivilent cities in the US.

Well, that's funny then - because I still haven't seen a European hobo in my entire life, despite of your expert observations.

And come on CCR, you're making an ass out of yourself. So now you're claiming the only way to get poor in the US is to be either crazy or a junkie? Yeah, way to be in touch with the real world, pal.

If the Saudi's keep treating their citizens like they are treating them now, that seems inevitable.
WTF do you suggest we do? Trying to make a Secular Republic in Arabia would be like trying to force Ayn Rand to live in a hippie commune.

What? Why would Saudi Arabia have to be a secular nation? Where did you see me claim SA should be a secular nation? My point is that the Saudi government opresses it's citizens. I never mentioned the fact that it isn't secular. At any rate, those two don't inherently go hand in hand.

Please, CCR, you're debating like a hyperactive kid on LSD. At least try to concentrate.

Also, I frankly find it hilarious that the EU thinks it has the right to argue over morality of investing in questionable regiems. Can you say getting rid of arms embargo on China during Chinese military buildup for invasion of Taiwan, Jebus?

getting rid of arms embargo on China during Chinese military buildup for invasion of Taiwan.

What, this it turning into a shit-throwing contest now? Très Americaine.

Yeah. How does that relate to your question I answered, and I quote:
IT caused massive issues with minimal immigration and was'nt even the basis of the economy. WTF makes you think everything will be diffirent now?

Did it fill up the economic gaps? Yes. So that was the answer to your question.

Why didn't I know it? not because I'm ignorant of ancient history, but because I don't use... German terms. Why the hell would you use a German term? I have volumes of historic writing lying right next to me, and I have never come across any German terms. So next time you want to make completely unrelated historical references, at least use English terms, k?
Völkerwanderung? Dude, it should be fairly fucking obvious what it means. Wandering of the People? Germanic invasions?

CCR, if you knew jack shit about history you'd know peoples have been migrating from the moment they left the rainforest up 'till the Golden Horde. How the hell was I supposed to know you meant the Goths, and not the Huns?

'Millions'? And, there's also a reason why just as many people from around the globe come to European colleges.
Not nearly as many, and almost none of them stay. The British Uni system is near collapse due to a near total lack of foreign interest because American schools are superior.

Proof or stfu. I for one didn't find any figures on this.
I have no reason to provide information that should be readily availible, ESPECIALLY when you go on in the next paragraph to bitch about me not knowing the obivous.

CCR, I call mayor bullshit. Are you claiming that the European educational system is inferior to the American one now? Good lord man. You have no shame.

Yeah, thank you for agreeing with me. This is exaclty the kind of die-hard capitalism that's bad for the people I was talking about. Outsourcing is just another reason why the economic gap between the rich and the poor in the USA will continue to grow, and more and more people will fall below the poverty line. We in Europe face the same problem, but nobody's going to lose the roof over their head because of it - because we have different priorities in our economical system.
The EU is not immune to the global economy. There's a reason no company in their right mind would EVER set up shop in the EU.

Are you the same person who referred me to Economics 101 just now?
Europe, together with the USA, IS the world economy. They are the consumer base. As more companies produce abroad, the employment and thus consumer base declines. I don't think it'll take long before the EU and US government start to give punitive taxes to outsourcing companies...

You seem to have some pretty high minded critiscisms of the American way of life for not living here. I don't judge the EU on Anthem, it's absurd you get to judge us by Dogville.

Yet, you seem to know everything about the European way of life.

And what does this all have to do with muslim immigration again?
I have absolutley no idea whatsoever.

Then cut it out.

Frankly, CCR, you're one hell of an annoyance to debate with. You put up strawmans in practically every argument you make, and you continue to drive the discussion to places that have nothing to with the original topic - as to set up the ultimate strawman. That, and the tendency you have to constantly insult and (try to) ridicule the person you are debating with, no matter how civil they are. And the fact that you turn every discussion you enter into a mindless Europe VS America mud-slinging contest, out of a sort of blissfully ignorant chauvinism. I don't know why I still waste my time with you, really. Especially when I should be spending the time I'm wasting on you on my studies.
 
Civil? Chauvinism is a fighting word.

Frankly, I've just grown tired of the whole style of debate here. More often then not views are far to extreme, hostile words are used inappropriatley and arguments never have any hope of ending. Not that I'm innocent of any of the above. We need Kharn back.

Anywhoo, sorry if I came off as an ass. I'm not particularly fond of the idea that the American people are somehow idiots for not rising up and getting rid of our own government, or that the Iraq war was some form of economic rather then ideological colonialism.


Last I checked, it said 0.00 GDP. But let's not dabble around with such small differences, shall we?
-0.1% (2004 est.)
http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gm.html

If you were to use those criteria in your arbitrary decision on who should belong to Europe and who shouldn't, then, by the same logic, the Germans -nor the French- could be considered Europeans either.
Porque? The Germans and the French have a better history of relations then the Spanish and the Moroccans (there's a reason he's Sant Iago Matamoros), Austria and the Turks (Vienna anybody?), Greeks and Turks (Izmir?).

What? What kind of dribbel is that? And what the HELL does that have to do with the point? Are you putting up a strawman to defend your strawman now?
This is becoming ludicrous.
Foundation of Marxism was bulloks.

Har har. Did you see me saying I agree with it? Does this have anything to do with the point?
The EU does'nt seem to agree with you that the social welfare system is not in need of reform or will be able to continue.

Well, that's funny then - because I still haven't seen a European hobo in my entire life, despite of your expert observations.
I can't believe that. Surley Poland, East Germany, the poorer Parisian suburbs...surley they must have a homless population?

And come on CCR, you're making an ass out of yourself. So now you're claiming the only way to get poor in the US is to be either crazy or a junkie? Yeah, way to be in touch with the real world, pal.
No, I didnt say that, I said the majority are.

What? Why would Saudi Arabia have to be a secular nation? Where did you see me claim SA should be a secular nation? My point is that the Saudi government opresses it's citizens. I never mentioned the fact that it isn't secular. At any rate, those two don't inherently go hand in hand.

Saudi Arabia is better stable then not stable. Do you or do you not disagree with that statement? As the only possible replacement for the House of Saud would be a Islamic Revolutionary state ala Iran.

What, this it turning into a shit-throwing contest now? Très Americaine.
Hardie-har-har. Americans have as bad a history of debates turning into a shitstorm as Europeans. British Parliment did'nt allow you to sit within 10 feet of another member of Parliment, lest in a rage they took out a dagger.

Matter of fact, I don't think any group of people would not get into a shitstorm on this topic.

Did it fill up the economic gaps? Yes. So that was the answer to your question.
MY question was if you thought that, considering the social turmoil a tiny immigration to the then-EC caused, would the EU be able to handle something much, much larger? If so, WHY?


CCR, if you knew jack shit about history you'd know peoples have been migrating from the moment they left the rainforest up 'till the Golden Horde.
Off topic, but everything you said here was false, as
A) Man did NOT evolve in a rainforest
B) The Golden Horde did not see the end of human immigration, as one of it's most dramatic chapters, immigration to the Americas was yet to happen.

How the hell was I supposed to know you meant the Goths, and not the Huns?
Dude. It was in German. It read 'Migration of Our People'. In German. Do I have to draw you a map?

CCR, I call mayor bullshit. Are you claiming that the European educational system is inferior to the American one now? Good lord man. You have no shame.
Yes and no. America's public school system is in total, utter shambles. After Highschool, however, we easily make up with signifigantly better College system.

I'm not going to debate who is better then who here, as at best we are equal and at worse yours is signifigantly better, but we are not going to have some kind of massive depression because our population is full of dumbfucks.

Europe, together with the USA, IS the world economy.
:roll:
If China let the yuan find it's real price, China's economy would be as large as America's, if not now then very soon. Not to mention Japan, and now India.

I don't think it'll take long before the EU and US government start to give punitive taxes to outsourcing companies...
Eh..hehe...that's another argument.

Yet, you seem to know everything about the European way of life.
I lived in Britan for a year. It's nor Brussels, but it's more European then any place you've ever lived is American.
 
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
Frankly, I've just grown tired of the whole style of debate here. More often then not views are far to extreme, hostile words are used inappropriatley and arguments never have any hope of ending. Not that I'm innocent of any of the above. We need Kharn back.

Aye. We need some kind of arbiter here. If not for Kharn, perhaps we could appoint an innocent child's hand, like PsychoSniper or something.

If you were to use those criteria in your arbitrary decision on who should belong to Europe and who shouldn't, then, by the same logic, the Germans -nor the French- could be considered Europeans either.
Porque? The Germans and the French have a better history of relations then the Spanish and the Moroccans (there's a reason he's Sant Iago Matamoros), Austria and the Turks (Vienna anybody?), Greeks and Turks (Izmir?).

Well, your point was that the Islamic world had its run-ins with the Western European one, aye? Well, any country in the world had has its run-ins with Europe, including -especially- European nations themselves. So that's not really a criterium, IMHO.
What is a criterium is wether or not they, for starters, had an impact on European politics. I mean - Europe had its run-ins with the Mongols, the Chinese and the Hausi too, yet they have never changed European politics in a significan way. Yet the Ottomans most certainly have.
To continue along that trend, nations around the European continents can be considered by the impact they had on the development of European culture. Here too, the Near Eastern Islamic world had an immense importance. Algebra, the Greek philosophers, architecture, etc. etc.; the importance of the Ottomans in Medieval European cultural developments cannot be underestimated. How can you not consider them a part of Europe, then, when they form such a vital part of its development?

Furthermore, it's not there was only war between the OE and the west. There's been just as much war between Austria and the Ottomans as between England and France. Heck, a lot less, actually. But then again, France has most likely seen the most war of any country in the history of man. But anyway, I disgress.


What? What kind of dribbel is that? And what the HELL does that have to do with the point? Are you putting up a strawman to defend your strawman now?
This is becoming ludicrous.
Foundation of Marxism was bulloks.

Oh har har. Foundation of neo-capitalism is bullocks too, then, as the trickle-down-system doesn't work. Does that mean that the entire capitalistic teachings are bullshit?

Har har. Did you see me saying I agree with it? Does this have anything to do with the point?
The EU does'nt seem to agree with you that the social welfare system is not in need of reform or will be able to continue.

It IS in need of reform. The difference is that, over here, 'reform' doesn't necessarily mean 'deconstruction'. There's going to be some sacrifices, yes - most likely a raise of taxes - but that's going to stabilize itself when the economic recession is over.

Well, that's funny then - because I still haven't seen a European hobo in my entire life, despite of your expert observations.
I can't believe that. Surley Poland, East Germany, the poorer Parisian suburbs...surley they must have a homless population?

Aye, they most likely do - but not hundreds of people like in that famous hobo-neighbourhood of Los Angeles, and not in vast trailer parks like is also a not-so-rare sight in the States.
But indeed, Europe has its poor people too. Yet here in Belgium, it's only around 3%, while in the States it's 13%. And there lies the difference. The reason why there are 10% (and that 10% of the entire population, remember - a damn lot of people) less poor people here does not lie in the fact that there somehow is more money here, but because those people are caught by our social lifenet.


And come on CCR, you're making an ass out of yourself. So now you're claiming the only way to get poor in the US is to be either crazy or a junkie? Yeah, way to be in touch with the real world, pal.
No, I didnt say that, I said the majority are.

So the mayority of the American poor are mentally ill? Say 10% out of those 13% of the American population, that makes 29 million mentally ill people? Wow, talk about bad genes!

What? Why would Saudi Arabia have to be a secular nation? Where did you see me claim SA should be a secular nation? My point is that the Saudi government opresses it's citizens. I never mentioned the fact that it isn't secular. At any rate, those two don't inherently go hand in hand.

Saudi Arabia is better stable then not stable. Do you or do you not disagree with that statement? As the only possible replacement for the House of Saud would be a Islamic Revolutionary state ala Iran.

That's never the 'only possible replacement'. Look at Egypt, Jordania, Libanon, Palestine,... Or are they somehow different from Saudi Arabia, then?

Did it fill up the economic gaps? Yes. So that was the answer to your question.
MY question was if you thought that, considering the social turmoil a tiny immigration to the then-EC caused, would the EU be able to handle something much, much larger? If so, WHY?[/quote]

First of all, there weren't any turmoils in the seventies to be worthy of the name 'turmoil'. And as the agenda's of extremist political parties are always a thermometer for common man issues - there were no racist parties.
Secondly, the European immigrationpolicies have been too slack in past decades. Basic rehabilitiation - even the learning of the local language - was never required, so that the resulting ghetto-forming led to -as they did, and do, everywhere- tensions. If that were to change, things would most likely start falling into place. Heck, it's not like its so bad now - except for blatant racists and the Dutch, nobody has real problems with immigrants. There are plenty of Muslims in my college, and they're doing just as fine as everyone else.

CCR, if you knew jack shit about history you'd know peoples have been migrating from the moment they left the rainforest up 'till the Golden Horde.
Off topic, but everything you said here was false, as
A) Man did NOT evolve in a rainforest

Gawd. Ok, then, if you want to play it like that:

'Peoples have been migrating ever since the rift began to form and Eastern African lands turned into steppes, forcing apes to walk upward'.
Happy now?

B) The Golden Horde did not see the end of human immigration, as one of it's most dramatic chapters, immigration to the Americas was yet to happen.

That wasn't a migration of an entire people. It was more of a migration of the surplus of a population.

How the hell was I supposed to know you meant the Goths, and not the Huns?
Dude. It was in German. It read 'Migration of Our People'. In German. Do I have to draw you a map?

Yes, yes you do.

CCR, I call mayor bullshit. Are you claiming that the European educational system is inferior to the American one now? Good lord man. You have no shame.
Yes and no. America's public school system is in total, utter shambles. After Highschool, however, we easily make up with signifigantly better College system.

I'm still puzzled as to why the American college system should be 'signifigantly (sic) better' than the European one. Are you saying that when I graduate, I won't be as educated in History as an American history student? Somehow, I doubt that. Looking at the volumes next to me, there's no way a human being can cram more history than that without popping a fuse.

I'm not going to debate who is better then who here, as at best we are equal and at worse yours is signifigantly better, but we are not going to have some kind of massive depression because our population is full of dumbfucks.

Not because, but every little thing has its infuence on the economical situation.

Europe, together with the USA, IS the world economy.
:roll:
If China let the yuan find it's real price, China's economy would be as large as America's, if not now then very soon. Not to mention Japan, and now India.

With the exeption of Japan, they're still not quite where Europe or the USA is, CCR. China and India still have a vast majority of piss poor people.

Yet, you seem to know everything about the European way of life.
I lived in Britan for a year. It's nor Brussels, but it's more European then any place you've ever lived is American.
[/quote]

I'll give you that. Yet, you shouldn't extrapolate Britain to the entire EU. It's widely known that of all European nations, Britain has the holiest fear of taxes.
 
Jebus said:
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
Frankly, I've just grown tired of the whole style of debate here. More often then not views are far to extreme, hostile words are used inappropriatley and arguments never have any hope of ending. Not that I'm innocent of any of the above. We need Kharn back.

Aye. We need some kind of arbiter here. If not for Kharn, perhaps we could appoint an innocent child's hand, like PsychoSniper or something.

Are you kidding? Do you think anyone else is really going to read your point-counterpoint?

Pick ONE topic, then you might get some takers.
 
Aye, they most likely do - but not hundreds of people like in that famous hobo-neighbourhood of Los Angeles, and not in vast trailer parks like is also a not-so-rare sight in the States.
But indeed, Europe has its poor people too. Yet here in Belgium, it's only around 3%, while in the States it's 13%. And there lies the difference. The reason why there are 10% (and that 10% of the entire population, remember - a damn lot of people) less poor people here does not lie in the fact that there somehow is more money here, but because those people are caught by our social lifenet.
Brussels, Antwerp, Amsterdam, Eindhoven, Rotterdam, The Hague, Tilburg and probably all cities in Europe have a homeless population, not just the poor ones. Whether or not this population is comparable to the homeless population of the States, though, is doubtful.
Some numbers can be found here.
However, this is only concerned with the population that does live in a housing. Interestingly, Belgium scores really poorly, while the Netherlands scores a 99.9% in a conventional (ie. good) dwelling, and the USA a 96.2%. The huge diversity in the statisstics here shows, however, that you cannot say much about Europe as a whole, because Europe as a whole is incredibly diverse, and the constituent countries are still very much in control of how they deal with things, and this shows.
Another link, with a lot more information, is here.
 
Allright, does anyone know why my Firefox browser won't display .PDF files? I've got Acrobat...
 
It probably does display them, but what could be happening is that on the background there is a pop-up by Acrobat asking you to confirm the installation or somesuch. Minimize all of your windows until you see such a pop-up.
 
Nope, that's not it.
Sometimes, though, I actually get the Acrobat window, but then he says 'could not initialise Abrobat viewer in your browser'.
 
That's odd. Do you have the latest version and all? It should work automagically, really.
 
More on the problems of the Dutch when it comes to diversity and Islam-

Living with Islam

The new Dutch model?

Mar 31st 2005 | AMSTERDAM AND THE HAGUE
From The Economist print edition

Increasingly, the Netherlands wonders whether diversity is always desirable

Get article background

FOR people who see themselves as the front line in an uncertain struggle to defend western civilisation—a struggle, moreover, which has already cost some lives—the cultural warriors of the Netherlands have a surprising spring in their step. “I see developments in the Arab world as very promising,” says Paul Scheffer, a journalist who is one of the leaders of an ideological movement that wants to counter Islamist extremism by putting more emphasis on the rule of law and less on accommodating differences.

Taking his cue from America's political right, he hails the fact that in some Middle Eastern countries ordinary people have challenged old elites and theocracies. In Europe, he reckons, traditional leaders who presume to speak for Muslim immigrants have it too easy, because governments pander to them out of a misplaced respect for cultural diversity.

“The very idea of a multi-cultural society is too conservative, because it denies the fact that the migration changes people,” says Mr Scheffer, a veteran of Amsterdam's bohemian, canalside intelligentsia, a world where the right to be eccentric, and to change, is held dear. He and his friends have been arguing that all would-be citizens of the Netherlands must be presented with a clear message. As the price of living in an open, law-governed society, they should acknowledge the right of others to individual choice, dissent and “apostasy” from the beliefs of their own community.

In some European countries, such language might sound intolerant. But in the Netherlands of 2005, it has entered the political mainstream. Nor are all its advocates of European background. Indeed, its strongest advocate of all, Ayaan Hirsi Ali (see article) has a personal history which, in many people's eyes, gives her a unique authority to speak about the dark side of religious fundamentalism. What she, Mr Scheffer and, in a different way, the maverick politician Geert Wilders—who recently left the centre-right Liberals to form a new, Eurosceptical party—all have in common is a sense, bordering on arrogance, that history is on their side.

From their viewpoint, the events of last November—the killing of a film-maker, Theo van Gogh, followed by a spate of tit-for-tat burnings of schools and places of worship—merely vindicated what they had been saying for years: immigrant communities that refuse to align their values to those of western democracy are a ticking time-bomb. Nor are they shy about voicing opinions on other parts of Europe. Mr Scheffer, for example, thinks Britain made a terrible mistake by allowing policewomen to wear Muslim headscarves, since uniforms are supposed to express the state's neutrality between citizens.

Do these cultural ideologues have good reasons to feel confident, at least with respect to their own country? To some extent, yes. In all parts of the Dutch spectrum, politicians have to take account of a public mood that is deeply fearful of religious extremism and terrorism, and feels that too much stress has been laid on accommodating different values and faiths.

There are long-term reasons for this, and also short-term ones. Take the latter first. Dutch citizens have been horrified not only by the slaying of Van Gogh—the second murder of a critic of Islam in two years—but also by the reports that the alleged killer, Mohammed Bouyeri, was part of a larger cell, consisting of about 15 youngsters, who may have been in touch with some quite sophisticated godfathers of international terror.

Twelve suspected members of this cell, dubbed the Hofstad group by police, went on trial in Rotterdam in February; they were accused of planning more political killings. Most were of Moroccan origin, but they included two Dutch-American converts to Islam. For some Dutch citizens, Mr Bouyeri's life-story provides a sober warning of the complexity of the integration issue. Far from being a victim of exclusion, he did well at school and was active in community affairs. Only after hitting professional and family problems did he fall in with extremists.

Snail's-pace integration
The current wave of alarm over terrorism—heightened this week by a bomb scare in parliament—comes on top of a longer-term Dutch backlash, beginning five years ago, against policies which, as people now see things, threw money at poorly integrated immigrants and hoped their problems would go away. This political impulse helped to fuel the spectacular rise of Pim Fortuyn, a sociologist who denounced Islam's intolerance and was killed by an animal-rights activist in 2002.

Now that everyone deplores the “denial” of social and cultural problems in years past, there has been a spate of well-publicised research into the size and shape of Dutch Islam. Its findings are at once both troubling and reassuring.

In a Muslim community approaching 1m, there are two big groups. About 350,000 originate from Turkey and 300,000 from Morocco, mostly from the poorest parts of those countries. In both groups, young people usually take spouses from the home country—so integration into Dutch society is delayed by a generation or more. Among youths of Moroccan origin, there is a high incidence of petty crime. The Turks, by contrast, tend to form a “society within a society” with their own businesses, legal and otherwise, and strong links with the homeland.

The second generation of Dutch Muslims is less devout than the first, but only a little. A survey found that 37% of second-generation Turks attended a mosque once a week while 47% of their parents did; among Moroccans, the equivalent figures were 32% and 46%. In both groups, about two-thirds said they would not want their daughters to marry a non-Muslim. Generation made little difference to this. Some 29% of those from Turkey and 32% of those from Morocco felt Islam should have some say in politics, but only 2% and 3%, respectively, felt it should have the final say.

Meanwhile the Dutch intelligence service, AIVD, has made an estimate that was meant to reassure but may have done the opposite. It said 95% of Dutch Muslims were “moderates”—a figure which suggests that nearly 50,000 are potential militants. In fact, the number of active extremists, liable to commit violence, is estimated at around 200, with a loose support group of 1,200.

In a society that was sure of its values, and determined to protect itself, keeping such a threat at bay should not present an insuperable problem. But despite the self-confidence of the new political right, Dutch society is far from sure of itself. The Netherlands tends to alternate between long periods of stability and phases of dramatic social change. The current mood feels more like the latter, says Geert Mak, a journalist.

There is now a widespread feeling that the country's social problems have been exacerbated by policies that made it easier to live on welfare than to work. In some urban areas, until very recently, well over half the men of Moroccan origin over the age of 40 were living on social security and had little expectation of working.

Tolerant in Amsterdam
The government has now made it harder for people to refuse jobs that they are capable of doing, and still receive unemployment benefits. But for all their self-confidence, advocates of “tough love” for immigrants are exaggerating if they claim to have the field to themselves. For one thing, one big institution still believes strongly that public money is well spent on bringing together people of different faiths and races: the city of Amsterdam.

Like every Dutch advocate of what some would call touchy-feely policies, the mayor of Amsterdam, Job Cohen, is a little defensive these days. But he still argues that learning to live with immigrant cultures, including Islam, is a challenge for hosts and newcomers alike. “Both sides must take steps” to understand one another, he insists, if only for the “purely selfish reasons that society cannot function” otherwise. Such talk might sound reactionary in the municipal politics of, say, London; but in the Netherlands, it identifies the speaker as a bleeding heart.

The mayor insists that not everything done in the 1990s was wrong. Despite differences of culture and religion, he points out, two-thirds of immigrants are now doing well. He takes satisfaction from the fact that Amsterdam was spared last November's spate of Christian-Muslim violence and arson, believing that the city's spending on race relations helped. But he worries that “integration cannot be achieved overnight” and that the process may take another generation.

Government officials insist that the centre-right coalition is not indifferent to the welfare of immigrants, Muslim or otherwise. During the Dutch presidency of the European Union, in the second half of last year, the government made a huge effort to affirm the idea that policing migration and promoting “integration”—including the problems posed by culture and religion—were inseparable policies which EU states must tackle jointly.

Only days after the killing of Van Gogh, the Dutch government convened the first EU-wide meeting of “integration” ministers and won assent for “common basic principles”—including the idea that helping migrants to adapt is a task for receiving countries and new arrivals alike. Given the climate in the Netherlands at the time, that was not uncontroversial. Back at home, the government has launched a very Dutch-sounding “broad initiative for social cohesion” in which NGOs and religious groups will be urged, and helped, to find ways of improving race relations.

Tackling the extremists
But that is not the main concern of many Dutch citizens. They are more interested in recent government moves to crack down on extremism by expelling militant imams and insisting that, in the near future, all imams must be Dutch-educated. Dutch universities have been offered subsidies to open theological departments to train Muslim prayer-leaders. The education ministry has also announced that any new schools will be expected, as a condition of opening, to prove that they intend to transmit the values of Dutch society to their pupils. Although this makes no explicit reference to Islam, it is clearly aimed at Muslim schools.

As the government is surely aware, some strange noises have been coming from a country known for pragmatism and tolerance. The head of the Liberal Party's think-tank is calling for the return of the death penalty, while the parliamentary leader of the Christian Democrats, the main party in the ruling coalition, has promised to resist the introduction of sharia law.

A little closer to the real world, perhaps, Parliament is in the process of adopting a package of stringent anti-terrorism laws that would curb civil liberties to a degree that worries some judges. This, too, is an unfamiliar turn of events for a country that until recently saw the European charter of fundamental rights as much too lax in its defence of personal freedom.

In a mood of confusion over national identity, there have been calls for a new canon of Dutch history, hitherto an unfashionable subject. This could be a basis for national self-awareness and even for pride in the country's tradition of freedom and tolerance. Some people have retorted that such a canon should also reflect the unhappier moments in the Dutch past, including colonial wars and the failure to save many Jews from the Nazis.

And though the frenzy caused by the Van Gogh killing has now eased, neither Dutch society nor politics should be considered stable, says Mayor Cohen. The current quiet, he believes, may last only as long as there are no dramatic events. In any case, the Netherlands “seems as if it has lost its anchor”, and it may stay so for a while yet.

What nobody knows is whether the new political right will succeed in persuading the Dutch—and indeed other Europeans—to embrace a new sort of politics which, like its American counterpart, puts strong emphasis on values and principles rather than expediency and compromise.

To many Dutch observers, the country's famed tradition of tolerance is a reflection not so much of high ideals as of pragmatism. In cities such as Amsterdam or Rotterdam, which aspired to be international commercial centres long before globalisation, it made good business sense for Protestants, Catholics and Jews to co-exist and trade together, live and let-live.

Faced with the challenge of absorbing immigrants from traditional societies—and drawing the right line between curbing extremism and fostering diversity—Dutch common sense will certainly help, but may not be enough. Like their American counterparts, the ideologues of the new Dutch right have won a wide hearing for the idea that values are important. They have yet to convince Dutch society that they have found the right means of upholding these principles.
 
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