Saudi Arabia

MadDog

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I love it! Saudi Arabia.... a US ally, has terrorists that have killed at least 3 Americans recently, and they might have another held hostage. Now, Iraq, our enemy, has NOTHING to do with Terrorism. So, will the US Gov't actually come out and say "our ally is a terrorist harboring country, and we should have went after them instead of Iraq?"

I keep debating people who are still pro-Bush, saying that Saddam has been playing games with us and we should put him out of power blah blah blah. Ok, so while he has really done NOTHING to us lately, we have allies killing US citizens. And we say nothing. I'm so impressed!
 
I can't imagine what would happen if America declared war on Saudi Arabia.

Oh wait, I can. Imagine Fallout meets Crusader Kings!
 
The problem for Saudi Arabia is that they would have difficulty controlling terrorism in their country, even if they try to.

Remember, it is the land of the most holy cities in the Muslim world.
 
ConstipatedCraprunner said:
I can't imagine what would happen if America declared war on Saudi Arabia.

Oh wait, I can. Imagine Fallout meets Crusader Kings!

Fallout and Crusader Kings? please :roll:

Equating a post nuclear RPG and middle age strategic simulation with the absolute shitstorm hhat would erupt if the US ever declared war on Saudi Arabia is pedestrian.

OPEC would probably create another embargo, a la 1970's.

The Middle East in general, from Pakistan to Morrocco (and damn your definition of the Middle East) would go absolutely and indiscrimnantly insane. Killing Westerners would become the new fashion statement, along with the burkha.

Israel would be invaded, and they would then use their nukes to glass half the region.

Any and all moderate governments in the region would be overthrown and replaced with Iranian clones.

Terrorism around the globe would go through the roof, as the part of the one BILLION muslims not living in the mid-east would sew dissent and cause massive civil unrest.

Using CK and Fallout as an analogy does not do justice to the calamity that would ensue.
 
many people in saudi arabia find it blasphemous that US soldiers are stationed there. On top of that they always thought of the current governement as a joke (even before US soldiers were stationed on "holy" soil)
 
welsh said:
The problem for Saudi Arabia is that they would have difficulty controlling terrorism in their country, even if they try to.

Remember, it is the land of the most holy cities in the Muslim world.
Holy Cities is an understatement. It's like combining Isreal for the Jews with the Ganges for the Hindus in one.

Remember, the reason the Crusades failed was not because the Muslims wanted thier "holy land" back, but because Reynold de Charliton killed Muslims on thier way to Mekka. And 9/11 was in the mind of the Al-Queda supporters getting back at the US for stationing American Troops in Saudi Arabia.

Heck, Muhammed's last words where "may there be no two religions in Arabia".
 
I'm increasingly pessemestic that Saudi Arabia will be able to avoid some Khomeni like revolution. I don't like being the doomsayer, or sounding like some crazed Islamophobe, but this is among the scariest situations I can think of sence the Cold War.
 
welsh said:
The problem for Saudi Arabia is that they would have difficulty controlling terrorism in their country, even if they try to.

Remember, it is the land of the most holy cities in the Muslim world.

You mean...much like Iraq?

You guys are bothering me, you're all searching for excuses not to invade Saudi Arabia. So, Saudi Arabia is a buddy-nation that delivers oil. That gives them a free-pass to be an opressive terrorist nation. Deal with it.
 
The problem with terrorism is that, in many ways, it's like crime. Just about anyone with a motive adn the will can do it just about anywhere.

In Conrad's the Secret Agent, perhaps one of the best books on terrorism, one of the characters is a bomb maker and makes the interesting observation that an act of terrorism is basically one of character. Does the person have the character to blow themselves up and do those who wish to prevent him, have the character to stop it.

It is impossible to fight that kind of thing with mere tanks and helicopter gunships. Terrorism is psychological warfare when exercised. But it is also psychological warfare in the minds of those who act in terrorism.

A couple good films on terrorism that anyone interested in learning more about terrorism should see are The Battle of Algiers- which is basically a terrorist campaign, and Four Days in September, about the kidnapping of the American Ambassador in Brazil.

In Battle of ALgiers, one sees the desperation of the French in stopping the terrrorists and the panic caused by the terrorists in a few acts of violence. In 4 Days in Sept you get an insight into the minds of the terrorists themselves- some are ideological romantics, others cold hearted fatalists, some just naive and other's cruel.

Key here is that it's people who act, like criminals, based on different motives. What holds them together is a common cause which often they don't fully understand. There is often a feeling to "do something" or "to make a statement" much the way a suicide often comes with a message or statement of motives.

This is a war of hearts and minds, and requires an approach that appeals to hearts and minds. It cannot be won with bullets and blood alone, but by delegitimating the population of support for those who commit acts of terror.

The US is not doing that in the middle east because the emphasis is on power and control. Acts like failing to pay policeman, or harrassing Muslims, or torturing terrorists suspects, or failing to stop the assassinations and bombings- this all adds fuel to the fire. By failing to acknoweledge the culture of the area, the US is opening itself to increased criticism.

If the US is there to democratize and make Iraq a better place, it has to convince the Iraqis that's the purpose. It has yet to achieve that result. And that failure in Iraq is showing up all over the middle east because the camera is on the US. The Muslims are watching America and how it behaves.

It costs billions to maintain the US presence in Iraq. It cost significantly less to crash airplanes in buildings on 9/11- but it did require a handful of people who were willing to make those sacrifices.

Which is perhaps why the US may lose this war.
 
Kharn, I highly doubt seizing Saudi Arabia's oil fields or invading the country would be the answer.

The problem of Saudi Arabia is that it's an oil based monarchy that sits on the religious center of the Muslim World. To invade that country would be to court disaster in the middle east.

But even if the US invaded and succeeded to oust the Saudi's, then what? The Muslims would still go ape shit and the control of oil would be unstable.

One of the reasons for the increase in the cost of oil has been terrorism. Terrorism increases risk, risk increases price. Sudden increases in price screws up long-term investment and planning which screws up the global economy.

The game is for stability, not risk.

What needs to happen in Saudi Arabia is a change of regime. When oil prices were good the country was doing very well, but since the price hike in oil, oil has been going down, relative in value while the price of imports has gone up. This causes a financial problem.

What the Saudi's need to do is establish a regime in which the demands of their population are met, and in whcih the people feel that they cannot risk rocking the boat with religious extremists.
 
I am not in disagreement with you, welsh. My only question is, how does this differ from Iraq and Afghanistan? Those two invasions together were asking for more bloodshed and more terrorism as much as an invasion in Saudi Arabia would've.

That's my problem with all the above. Why is Saudi Arabia excempt from the holy fist of US wrath, while others aren't? That's just backstabbing friendshipgames
 
I don't even think we even need to invade Saudi Arabia any more to make the Muslim world go apeshit. Terrorism in Saudi Arabia is striking the oil industry, which support's Saudi Arabia's monarchy and makes the economy go south, and the more the economy goes south the more Fundies we have on our hands.

I don't even know what to do any more. I don't even know if there is a way to fix Saudi Arabia in time to save it. We certainly can't invade it, or have any involvment in a Civil War outside of supplying arms.

The best thing I think we can do now is support Pakistan. If Pakistan falls to the Wahhabists, hundreds of millions of people are going to die.
 
Our military also cost a lot more to maintain more than any other nation on the world welsh. We also spent much more on war than the Germans did during WW2. Didn't necessarily mean we lost, or would've.
 
And now the saudi king is dying. Last thing i heard he is was very senile, and he will probably die in a few years. The royal familiy counts about 6000 members(not certain about this number) wich might make for a complicated sucssesion. If the terrorists go for it, they might manage anarchy.

Hey did you know that the saudi king has a "hut" wich is a true copy of the white house?
 
Loxley said:
Hey did you know that the saudi king has a "hut" wich is a true copy of the white house?

Cool, once the terrorists are in power they'll have a place to train for the attack on the White House.
 
Loxley said:
And now the saudi king is dying. Last thing i heard he is was very senile, and he will probably die in a few years. The royal familiy counts about 6000 members(not certain about this number) wich might make for a complicated sucssesion. If the terrorists go for it, they might manage anarchy.

Anarchy? Like in civilization? The goverment is going to changed from monarchy to fundamentalism (civ2). They are going to produce fanatics to invade other nations. :roll:

The US is not going to invade Saudi Arabia. Imagine the impact of this in Indonesia, kuwait, Egypt, Iran, Syria, Pakistan.... It's going to trigger a revolutionary process that is going to put the main producers of petrol under the control of fanatics. WWIII. President George Bullshit is stupid but not that stupid. err... maybe. :eyebrow:
 
We probably won't turn on Saudi Arabia, the senate and senior military officers wouldn't be THAT stupid in America... I hope. But first, I really think that someone in America should open their eyes and realize that we have to stop this "war on terror" before more people get killed. TOo many people are or were agreeing that invading the middle east was a good thing. Even if the US or ANYONE in the world cant do anything actively, we really must find some way to stop this bloodshed.

Even Kerry wants to put some more troops into Iraq. He doesn't agree with the angle Bush has, but I'm not sure of his angle. At what point will the Middle East turn around and say "stop, or you die" or... just plain rip apart the US? The US exports more oil than uses domestic oil, just because its cheaper to buy foreign and sell domestic. That's a big problem, because at some point, as someone said, OPEC can turn right on us. Not only that, but if this whole terrorist organization takes over oilfields in Saudi Arabia, we are in COMPLETE danger. We wouldn't be able to bring in Americans, or trust any tankers coming in. We probably wouldn't be able to get oil at all. Am I right?
 
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