So... The new KotOR game is MMO

13pm

Water Chip? Been There, Done That
From Kotaku:
<blockquote>As EA confirmed today, the next Knights of the Old Republic is going to be a MMO. From Portfolio.com:

"We've got two of the most compelling MMOs in the industry in development," said Riccitiello. The first title, based on the Warhammer property, will launch soon. "And the one that people are dying for us to talk to them about — in partnership with Lucas, coming out of BioWare, which is, I think, quite possibly the most anticipated game, full stop, for the industry at the point when we get closer to telling you about it."

Does Riccitiello mean the oft rumored Knights of the Old Republic Online? "Yes," he said.</blockquote>

And Bioware goes there too. I can't understand, why the fuck MMOs? There're so many of them today, that even die-hard MMO fans must be sick of them. And they are making even more. Is it that profitable?
 
13pm said:
And Bioware goes there too. I can't understand, why the fuck MMOs? There're so many of them today, that even die-hard MMO fans must be sick of them. And they are making even more. Is it that profitable?

[Looks at Blizzard fiscal finance reports]

Yes.
 
DarkLegacy said:
13pm said:
And Bioware goes there too. I can't understand, why the fuck MMOs? There're so many of them today, that even die-hard MMO fans must be sick of them. And they are making even more. Is it that profitable?

[Looks at Blizzard fiscal finance reports]

Yes.

nah. I mean, is it that profitable to launch a new MMO today? When there're dozens of dozens of MMOGs. I don't know, but when WoW was launched, MMOs were still something new and interesting. And today only lazy one doesn't make his own MMMOG. The market is overflowed to my opinion.
 
seems like eventualyy EVERY franchise will be represented as an MMO... I guess thats either good or bad depending on how you look at it. I mean there is a Star-trek, Star-Gate, Star Wars (and this new kotor one) and the possibility of a Halo MMOFPS (these ansgrams are getting ridiclious) And of course not to mention the rumors of Fallout Online
 
Star Wars Galaxies will be closed, btw.

I also can't understand the idea of making another Star Wars MMO, when the first has failed. One of the problems is that 90% of players would want to become a jedi themselves, but wouldn not want the others to be jedi. This controversion actually killed SW Galaxies.

And Bioware is not an experienced MMORPG maker, so I doubt they will avoid this problem somehow. Or there will be only jedi and sith.
 
Maybe there will be no option to become a force user at all? One can only hope - but wouldn't that contradict with the idea of Star Wars in the first place?

Ahhh, and I was hoping for a closing part of the KotOR would-be trilogy, tieing all the loose ends and finishing the story of the Revan, Exile and the True Sith once and for all. With some decent story and good dialogues.

Instead, they choose to make a game for kiddies that'd love to PK other players using Force Crush or other superpower.

Maybe at least it'll have singleplayer quests like LotROnline.
 
Ravager69 said:
Maybe there will be no option to become a force user at all? One can only hope - but wouldn't that contradict with the idea of Star Wars in the first place?
Nah, there's no sense in doing a Star Wars game without Force usage. Noone will play it.
 
Im sure force users will be common judgeing by the era it's set in. That being said Im sure that they'll also have all the usual KOTOR classes based on the Star Wars D20 system.
 
when i was more involved in wow (boast! 3xt6 heal pala and full t5 larwock, so i spent some time there), ive come across a very interesting movie (in german). seemingly, even a comparably small mmorpuger is very profitable. there are literally thousands and thousands that have a few 10,000 member up to 100,000. a lot of countries have mmorpuger that are only and exclusively known there (examples are france and korea, iirc).

so yes, it makes sense to develop mmorpgs today. and, the more the merrier. the bigger the segment, the more perturbances, the more independent moves and developments. and that is always good. frankly, ive had it up to here with wow; perhaps people who like mmorpg will be able to switch more often without losing their "commitment" inbetween.

edit: should be this one: http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/content/Vorab_im_Netz_Von_Magiern_und_Kriegern/51472

sadly, only in german
 
As far as WoW being released when MMO's were new and interesting... that's not very accurate. MMORPGs had been around and successfull for years by then, longer if you count muds (though you can't argue they were very successfull)

Ultima Online was the first big one I played, and that recieved something like 10 plus expansion packs, and is still making enough money to have boxes on store shelves as we speak.

I think arguing that there are already many MMORPG's on the market so there isn't room for more would be like arguing the same thing about any other genre. There's a lot of potential in the concept, I don't think we've seen much yet that's very interesting. The more the merrier I say, I'd like to see some companies start taking risks and make something totally unlike WoW.
 
The worst thing is that KotOR was very story-driven. Sure, there was lot of freedom in what order you wished to finish the planets' main quests, but often you get railroaded and there were points of no return (when Bastila get's abducted and the battle for Telos), so making it a MMO, which aren't about story at all, is a bit lame. Fans of the previous two games would like to see what happened to the main characters and somekind of ending, conclusion. Instead, we get a game where the world is static and no matter how many people finish the main quest, everything remains the same. A bit unfair, IMO - something like what's happening to the Fallout series.

As for how well will the setting fit into a MMO - it's as good as any other. I'd have to know anything at all to comment it.

Although I think the game may be good, I still wait for a singleplayer only KotOR3.
 
Argh, I was SO looking forward to a real KOTOR 3. I understand it probably would have been difficult for Revan and the Exile to meet up and have a conversation seeing as how they're both silent protagonists. Situation reminds me of my Fallout playing habits. I played the first two games, waited a shitload of time for a sequel, and when it finally came, it wasn't exactly what I wanted.
 
It'd be pretty dumb to have thousands of force sensitive chosen ones running around. They better have some good ideas. Either way I'm not going to play it, I'm not into MMORPG's.
 
I don't think you can really equate this news to fallout either. It's KOTOR: The MMO, not KOTOR 3.

Setting an mmo in the knights universe doesn't negate the possibility of an actual sequel somewhere down the line.
 
Snackpack said:
I don't think you can really equate this news to fallout either. It's KOTOR: The MMO, not KOTOR 3.

Setting an mmo in the knights universe doesn't negate the possibility of an actual sequel somewhere down the line.

True, but the feel is the same - everybody's waiting for it, and it appears to be entirely diffrent from what people wanted. Perhaps there will be a proper KotOR 3, but ATM it's not even a rumor.
 
Just my guess: The setting of the game could be before or during the time Revan started hunting down all the jedi. That would be the time when plenty of them are roaming about. Or everyone would play as pawns that are part of his war, IMO.
 
By my estimate, there can be little doubt that EA's latest venture into MMO genre will flop miserably, and I don't see how even Star Wars brand recognition can avert the impending catastrophe. I base this conclusion on several premises, the primary of which is EA's dreadful MMO record.

Simply put, EA have no clue about running an MMO. They treat their online games same as they treat their single-player games - as products. If a product fails to sell hundreds of thousands of copies on its first month, it is considered a failure, and rightfully so.

However, MMOs aren't products. MMOs are services. Very few MMOs are massive successes from the get-go. Few MMOs attract a million subscribers in their first month. Few MMOs rake in immense profits early on. Most MMOs never do. Yet somehow, all these countless MMOs continue to run for years, even get updates and expansions, and are considered to be successful by their publishers - successful enough to warrant continued support and improvement.

Like any hugely complex and expensive service, a successful MMO requires immense commitment and enthusiasm from the providers - developers, publishers, tech staff, game masters and everyone else involved in its development and maintenance. This is something EA simply can't wrap their minds around. They don't understand that success of an MMO isn't decided in the first month following public release - rather, it is something you need to constantly work on for the entire duration of the MMO's lifespan.

Your MMO didn't attract as many players as you expected? No problem, figure out what went wrong and *fix it*. Maybe the hype was insufficient. Maybe the subscription fee is too high. Maybe the game was released in a buggy or unfinished state. Maybe there isn't enough content. Or maybe your expectations were simply too high and you can still turn a solid profit even if you don't blow WoW out of the water. Whatever the problem is, *it can still be rectified*. Why? Because development and marketing efforts on an MMO continue even *after* release.

There is a hot new MMO out and all your players are leaving? No big deal, the trend is very much reversible. MMO gamers are a very dedicated bunch and it doesn't take much effort to get them to whip out their MasterCard and renew that subscription. All it takes is a new content upgrade, a much-needed mechanics revamp or a simple price cut and they'll be all over the MMO again like happy flies on a pile of pixelated shit. All it takes is commitment. How do you think Funcom manages to keep Anarchy Online popular and profitable even now, seven years after release? *Commitment*.

Commitment, or lack of thereof, is the reason why EA have utterly failed to leave a mark in the MMO industry and managed to botch every MMO they ever worked on, with notable exception of Ultima Online (and even that is debatable, as most UO expansions could have only come out of a very cocaine-addled mind). Lack of commitment is why EA closed down Earth & Beyond and thereby fucked over thousands of subscribers. It is also the reason why they closed down Motor City Online, in an unbelievably misguided attempt to get more people to play NFS Underground. It is also why The Sims Online never left its deficient state and always remained a pariah of online worlds.

In EA's case, lack of commitment goes hand-in-hand with lack of ethics. It is unethical to cancel an MMO that thousands of people have devoted perverse amounts of time and money to, not to mention all the developers who labored on it for years. The concept of ethics has always been alien to EA, which is why no gamer in their right mind will want to go anywhere near their latest piece of scam-ware. The only bit of good news for EA is that not too many gamers *are* "in their right mind", which explains why so many of them continue to pay full price for reskins of a 2002 World War II shooter.

In addition to EA's lack of commitment, other factors must be taken into account when considering the KotOR MMO. One is, as I stated before, brand recognition. Judging by the number of failed MMOs that were based on massively popular licenses, valuable brand name is more of a curse than a blessing for an MMO. Here are a few prominent examples from MMO history that illustrate very plainly that massively popular license is no guarantee of success in the market of mass online games:

1. Star Wars Galaxies. One of the most controversial and publicized failures, and also the most relevant one in this case. Though it managed to build up an impressive player-base early on, it suffered constant criticism due to its unfinished state, poor design and subsequent mismanagement on SOE's part, mismanagement that could have only resulted from unfathomable hubris on developers' part. After a series of gameplay revamps meant to streamline the game and give it greater mass appeal completely removed pretty much everything that made SWG unique and worthwhile, a massive exodus of players followed, leaving the gameworld largely barren and sealing the MMO's fate. It's safe to say at this point that it's only a matter of time before the game is shut down.

2. The Matrix Online. I could be wrong here, but my impression is that TMO has had significantly less media attention than SWG, probably because the two shitty movie sequels made the target audience wish they had taken the blue pill. Regardless, the game is an undeniable flop with a pitiful player-base and almost no media coverage.

3. Lord of the Rings Online. Released with fairly little hype, this surprisingly well-designed MMO has attracted a modest, but devoted player-base of about 200,000. Its unimpressive reception among gamers also happens to be its greatest strength - people play LOTRO purely out of love for Tolkien's setting, not out of juvenile need to vent excess hormones by pwning n00bz. Developers, on the hand, repay this enthusiasm by constantly improving the game with new content. In light of that, it's hard to refer to LOTRO as "failure". It is a failure by standards of EA, who would only glance at the modest profit margin before shutting down the game.

Finally, BioWare's inexperience with MMOs must also be taken into consideration when estimating the success chances of KotOR MMO. Now, BioWare is a development studio media love to love. My low opinion of them notwithstanding, one can't deny that their history is one of massive commercial and critical successes. However, one would also have to be utterly blind or deluded to dismiss three important facts:

1. All of BioWare's games so far have been single-player CRPGs. Contrary to what the misnomer "MMORPG" might imply, MMOs are entirely different beasts and experience in the field of CRPG development hardly makes you a successful MMO developer, and vice versa. In particular, programming aspect of MMOs is exceptionally complex, and if the buggy mess that is NWN (BioWare's first and, thus far, only venture into multiplayer gaming) is any indication, we wouldn't be all that unreasonable in anticipating an MMO equivalent of Big Rigs.

2. Correction: BioWare has worked on two non-CRPGs - Shattered Steel and MDK 2. The fact that you've likely never heard of them should tell you what smashing hits they were.

3. KotOR MMO is being developed by BioWare's Austin studio. Chances are you've never heard of the Austin studio, either, and for a good reason - they haven't yet developed any games. So while it's bad enough that BioWare Canada have no experience with non-CRPGs, these guys have no experience with *anything*. And yes, I know BioWare Austin is headed by Gordon Walton, much like SGO was headed by Brad McQuaid, and we all know how great Vanguard turned out to be.

With all these factors in mind, it's safe to say that BioWare's involvement in no way ensures that KotOR MMO won't be a colossal clusterfuck, let alone a great game. And when I also factor in EA's grim history as well as the proclivity towards failure that appears to be common to MMOs based on popular licenses, I don't really go out on a limb in saying that KotOR MMO has pretty dismal prospects.

And now I come to the most delicious part of my little exposition. A disconcerting number of indicators point towards KotOR MMO being an abject, deplorable failure. And we all know that failure - more specifically, *financial* failure - doesn't sit well with EA. Bluntly put, there is a good chance KotOR MMO will get BioWare shut down and developers fired or dispersed across EA's many development divisions, yet again confirming the notorious fact that for game development studios, getting involved with - let alone acquired by - EA is tantamount to a kiss of death. As it stands BioWare will be *very* fortunate if EA restrict their dismantlement to the Austin branch, but even in the best case scenario I somehow doubt the Canada division will get away with their autonomy and creative freedom intact. In other words, better enjoy your Jade Empire and Dragon Age, because the best you can hope for in foreseeable future from BioWare is another dozen Mass Effect sequels. I'd mourn their passing if I didn't find their presence in the game industry to have been at best useless and at worst exceedingly detrimental to the CRPG genre. With that in mind, au revoir and good riddance.

PS: If this post sounds suspiciously familiar, almost as if you read it on another forum, know that your impression is entirely mistaken and that this isn't a cross-post from anywhere. Yeah.
 
thank you, that is great input, also bump. and boobs.

avid news readers certainly recall the thread, in which the academic view on developer-user interacions was described (or alt least tried to, i could only translate, or better, horstlate certain aspects). i always thought of blizzard as a company which has found some sort of equilibrium between listening to fans and players' concerns and doing their own thing. everything they do is much.acclaimed and much.criticized, but you always get a hint of their deep involvement. thus their immense success. there is no exceptional story. the gameplay and graphics of wow would have been buried under 6 stories of critics bile if published as a single-player game. what keeps it alive is foremost the aforementioned dialogue. of course, that is no bilateral exchange of media texts on the same level... but it is very well alive.

so i definitely second rattys central questions and issues. if bioware does not blatantly copy blizzards approach to fan/developer relation its new venture will be a lot of things, but no success.
 
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