Stuff in arroyo temple for Fallout 2 Restoration Project 2.0
- Thread starter qwert
- Start date
I don’t see the point of cheating in a game like Fallout, if people can’t enjoy it the way it was designed then don’t play it. 
Makenshi
Ahoy, ye salty dogs!
If one save-loads because he didn't like the result of a given action, it's a cheat. Only if you steal, get caught, kills everyone who tries to beat you, and go on with your game, it's not cheating; loading after being caught stealing is an example of cheat via save-load.
I think that's what qwert is talking about.
I think that's what qwert is talking about.
I’m what people would consider a hard core player…the difficulty is set to hardest, and when it gets too hairy I make a run for it. I don’t plan to win every encounter; I don’t like twisting realty by carrying 999Ib of gear, it distorts the enjoyment of the game, you end up being some sort of superman, and not a village tribal trying to save his people. It’s in the struggle with the wastelands that I find the enjoyment. I must confess that I have loaded saves when something drastic has occurred…such as a critical rocket hit from halfway across the map on the first shot. I never had the courage to play a game with only 10 saves for the entire game – one for each slot – no more.Sephis said:
Many people find the temple a pain in the arse, but it’s a test to save your people. A smart player won’t need to fight a single critter if you’re careful - run from the ants, don’t fight the scorpions, pick and blow the doors, finally steal the key from Cameron, or use Speech…
There are certain encounter arrangements you cannot run alive from (raiders between you and exit grid). Pixote- nothing as DRASTIC as "a critical rocket hit from halfway across the map on the first shot" is really needed, don't tell me you never encountered raiders who cut you to pieces with SMG critical burst or you never got knocked out by critical hit from hunter rifle and got run over - these are two situations notorious around Den even with the armor you buy in Klamath. AG=10 and PE=8 does not save you here. Even the armor I planted there does not guarantee survival (critical hit from hunter rifle and 2 smg bursts send you to hell if you have 30-33 HP and set combat to hardest). Or imagine that: you're lv6, you go to Redding with your desert eagle, hunting rifle and SMG - and you meet 2xM60, 2xcombat shotgun, 2x needler pistol and 2xsledgehammer. I met these 2 days ago. Any hope to get to exit grid?
I accomplished F2 as original version once, but I had about 10-12 attempts with different character configurations (it was 8 years ago). I played without walkthrough, so I restarted when some quests proved unacomplishable with SPECIAL I initially selected (of course not big deal to edit save to get any SPECIAL stats you want, but it is humiliating to cheat that way). Now, after years I am bored to death with early stages of game, I know them by heart, eyes closed.
Of course one can obtain similar result to my little contribution just running to San Francisco, looting Navarro (save-load to avoid patrols, how LAME!) and voila - we have level 3 or 4 hero in power armor. In first version of Fallout (pre-patch) if you got to wrecked Highwayman in Klamath - you could get the car right away (no need of fuel cell controller from Gecko - I even did not know back then the FCE is at all needed to get a car!).
I accomplished F2 as original version once, but I had about 10-12 attempts with different character configurations (it was 8 years ago). I played without walkthrough, so I restarted when some quests proved unacomplishable with SPECIAL I initially selected (of course not big deal to edit save to get any SPECIAL stats you want, but it is humiliating to cheat that way). Now, after years I am bored to death with early stages of game, I know them by heart, eyes closed.
Of course one can obtain similar result to my little contribution just running to San Francisco, looting Navarro (save-load to avoid patrols, how LAME!) and voila - we have level 3 or 4 hero in power armor. In first version of Fallout (pre-patch) if you got to wrecked Highwayman in Klamath - you could get the car right away (no need of fuel cell controller from Gecko - I even did not know back then the FCE is at all needed to get a car!).
Oh, but they do. I am actually playing Ironman (save only when leaving the game). While high PE does not guarantee your safety, it drastically improves your chances (with better starting location and high sequence). I've come to appreciate previously neglected skills like Outdoorsman and Sneak (especially sneak!). Knowledge of where to go and where not to go also helps.
And these days I almost never go to Vault City straight from the Den, but to Redding and/or New Reno. Travelling with caravans is sooo much safer.
Last thing... never take your chances with those who have burst weapons. Even SMG can be lethal if it scores a good critical.
You are almost guaranteed to get there. Eat 2 Psychos, heal yourself with Stims, and run for your life, possibly avoiding a line of fire of those with burst weapons. And have a good amount of HP, EN 6 or 8 might help. Unless they get several criticals in a row, you'll be fine.
Best thing with Ironman... you can't just go to Navarro for APA. With the latest encounter rate fix you'll most certainly find an Enclave patrol on the way there and get roasted. And since most of your character are guaranteed to die, you might not care about things like the best rewards or optimal quest solutions. I loved telling Mr. Bishop what I really think about him and his family, and two of my chars actually lived to tell the tale after this. I also loved sneaking my way to San-Fran loaded with stuff I got while helping bandits to rob the caravans, buying lots of drugs and then challenging both Dragon and Lo Pan to a duel with a 6 lvl character. My most memorable archievements and daring deeds in a world of Fallout were made while playing Ironmen. The thing I came to realise is that there are very few situations that are truly hopeless, and there is always a way to avoid those altogether.
Everyone is entitled to play the game in the manner he or she wants, and sure I’ve been massacred on occasions (that’s the beauty of the game, you are never invincible). I’ve even been sneaky enough to want to steal the Bozars from the guards in NCR, and raid the shelves for all the ammo I can carry (the game allows for such a board range of behaviors and their consequences), that’s why we love it so much. But it’s in the struggle that the greatest combat Fallout experiences are enjoyed, when you are down to only a few hit points and Sulik performs a masterful burst that wipes out a bunch of bad assess, and you live to tell the tale (of course if you died you can just load your game and try again).Nevill said:
Impossible to get reasonable IN with PE=8, AG=10 and EN>6, needless to say EN=6 ain't enough (ST=max5!). I don't recall any location to buy Psychos before New Reno, but mabye I have forgotten something ... Also - I do not find it possible to accumulate stimpacks in early stages (IN=9, PE=8, AG=10 causes all healing powder and stimpacks to evaporate ...). Unless you avoid raiders, slavers and so on. And all they (quoted team) need is one critical that causes you unable to stand up right away.Nevill said:
But I agree that most of time you stand a good chance of running away (especially at night). IMHO there should be no random encounter you're unable to run away from provided you're in the area you're suppossed to be regarding your level. And level 6 - 7 is about where you are hitting from Den to Redding.
On unrelated note - I avoid taking NPCs with me. Hate being shot in the back - and tired removing those idiots from my LOS. I'd rather fully control NPCs in battle, that'd make more sense than what is now. Aside from that I'd prefer real time fight similar to Close Combat 5 (missing from pistol at 5-6 meter (16-18 ft) is ridiculous - missing from hunting rifle - even more so - why not scale the map and teams properly?). Of course you'd need time speed control too.
My char: STR=6, PE=8, EN=6, CH=4, IN=7, AG=6, LK=1
Nobody said IN=4 is unreasonable. Whatever suits your tastes. And why almost everyone is obsessed with AG=10?
The merchant in the eastern part of The Den sells those. One of Metzger's bodyguards have these. You can always find some on merchants from the New Reno. It's all up to you.
I have up to 20 by the time I leave Den for good. By then I've already took out Metzger and Tyler's gang.
It is wise to do so while your level is low. Perhaps even in the later stages of the game.
I, too, avoid that. Not that I hate them - they do not live long enough to travel the Wastelands.
The map size is hard coded somewhere in the game engine, what you find in the game is as big as it gets with Fallout. There are a maximum of 3 elevations per map, again hard coded somewhere in the game engine. There are a lot of restrictions to deal with, but I still think it’s one of the most engrossing games ever made.qwert said:
Continuum
Vault Fossil
Taking control over NPCs make no sense at all. Fallout isn't some squad based tactical game. Bunch of unpredictable AIs is super cool design decision.qwert said:
Don't be discouraged if response to your mod is underwhelming at the moment. The only thing that truly matters is whether you're happy with your work and it helps you have a game that you enjoy more. I don't believe there can be any cheating in a game you play by yourself, as to me cheating implies that someone is being cheated.
Having said that, though, if you're having that much trouble perhaps you should consider some other styles of play as noted by some of the other posters. I never use trainers etc, because there isn't really any reason to use them. Unless it's your first time or two (in fairness, you did say you don't have that many trips through the game under your belt) Fallout 2 is a pretty easy game, and an inability to survive should be taken as prod to do some thinking about what one could do differently.
.Pixote wrote:
This nicely states my sentiments as well. I often spend consecutive gaming sessions just roaming the wasteland without ever giving a thought to towns and quests, because that's what I want to do. For me, the image of struggling to survive in the wilderness, with junk armor and lousy weapons, is the essence of the game. I also agree about the Temple; I enjoy it, and every single time I start a new game I hunt down every single critter and disarm every single spear trap around. I'm not shy about saving the game, but I usually only reload if the player-character gets killed (which is rare); I keep on playing if party members die in battle or I make choices that mess up quests.
If you're getting clobbered by random encounters, three good solutions are:
1) As someone else mentioned, put some points into outdoorsman so you can choose your encounters. I always tag outdoorsman, in fact, and build it up to 100 very early. If a fight comes up that I can't handle I avoid it before it ever happens.
2) The random encounters are set by regions of the map. If you're having trouble surviving them, the best explanation is that your character isn't tough enough to be there in the first place. I spend months (of in-game time) roaming around the northwestern edge of the map between Arroyo, Klamath, Den, and Modoc, building up my character. I usually don't head to Vault City until I'm between level 10 and 15. At the stage of the game I also usually play an unarmed drifter (no points at all into gun skills), so it's not that hard to do.
3) As someone else mentioned, ride those caravans. If you need good weapons go to Redding (running away from every encounter you can't handle), hop a ride to NCR with a caravan, buy some guns, and take a caravan back. With those caravan guards helping you, the only time you really get into trouble at a low level is if you get a supermutant encounter.
Some other things to think about:
--Why pump your agility to 10 in the character creation screen? If you put it at 9 you can still take a Gain Agility perk later and have 10 aps for the end of the game (which is the only time you really need that many). Also, I always take the bonus move perk. It helps as my character as a melee fighter, but also helps if I have to run away from a battle I'm sure to lose.
--The best way to succeed at the overall game is to slowly build your character rather than worry about getting better weapons and armor. Focus on defeating opponents you can and don't worry about taking on those that are too tough (as they won't be too tough forever). Even near the end of the game (not counting the Enclave), my character usually runs around in a combat leather jacket without being often worried (not even about supermutants), because I have a lot of hit points due to level advancement, I take perks like toughness, dodger, and combat implants, and my fighting skills are sufficiently high to quickly dispatch any opponent whether I have weapons or use my bare fists. It's not as if I level that high either--I usually finish the game around level 35-45.
If you look at the game that way, the troubles you mentioned about being gunned down by superior opponents doesn't really ever happen. After you've fought enough molerats and cleaned out enough baby deathclaw caves in the north (while running away from armed mobs of highwaymen and robbers), you'll have no reason to fear anything going on down south.
Having said that, though, if you're having that much trouble perhaps you should consider some other styles of play as noted by some of the other posters. I never use trainers etc, because there isn't really any reason to use them. Unless it's your first time or two (in fairness, you did say you don't have that many trips through the game under your belt) Fallout 2 is a pretty easy game, and an inability to survive should be taken as prod to do some thinking about what one could do differently.
.Pixote wrote:
This nicely states my sentiments as well. I often spend consecutive gaming sessions just roaming the wasteland without ever giving a thought to towns and quests, because that's what I want to do. For me, the image of struggling to survive in the wilderness, with junk armor and lousy weapons, is the essence of the game. I also agree about the Temple; I enjoy it, and every single time I start a new game I hunt down every single critter and disarm every single spear trap around. I'm not shy about saving the game, but I usually only reload if the player-character gets killed (which is rare); I keep on playing if party members die in battle or I make choices that mess up quests.
If you're getting clobbered by random encounters, three good solutions are:
1) As someone else mentioned, put some points into outdoorsman so you can choose your encounters. I always tag outdoorsman, in fact, and build it up to 100 very early. If a fight comes up that I can't handle I avoid it before it ever happens.
2) The random encounters are set by regions of the map. If you're having trouble surviving them, the best explanation is that your character isn't tough enough to be there in the first place. I spend months (of in-game time) roaming around the northwestern edge of the map between Arroyo, Klamath, Den, and Modoc, building up my character. I usually don't head to Vault City until I'm between level 10 and 15. At the stage of the game I also usually play an unarmed drifter (no points at all into gun skills), so it's not that hard to do.
3) As someone else mentioned, ride those caravans. If you need good weapons go to Redding (running away from every encounter you can't handle), hop a ride to NCR with a caravan, buy some guns, and take a caravan back. With those caravan guards helping you, the only time you really get into trouble at a low level is if you get a supermutant encounter.
Some other things to think about:
--Why pump your agility to 10 in the character creation screen? If you put it at 9 you can still take a Gain Agility perk later and have 10 aps for the end of the game (which is the only time you really need that many). Also, I always take the bonus move perk. It helps as my character as a melee fighter, but also helps if I have to run away from a battle I'm sure to lose.
--The best way to succeed at the overall game is to slowly build your character rather than worry about getting better weapons and armor. Focus on defeating opponents you can and don't worry about taking on those that are too tough (as they won't be too tough forever). Even near the end of the game (not counting the Enclave), my character usually runs around in a combat leather jacket without being often worried (not even about supermutants), because I have a lot of hit points due to level advancement, I take perks like toughness, dodger, and combat implants, and my fighting skills are sufficiently high to quickly dispatch any opponent whether I have weapons or use my bare fists. It's not as if I level that high either--I usually finish the game around level 35-45.
If you look at the game that way, the troubles you mentioned about being gunned down by superior opponents doesn't really ever happen. After you've fought enough molerats and cleaned out enough baby deathclaw caves in the north (while running away from armed mobs of highwaymen and robbers), you'll have no reason to fear anything going on down south.
Continuum said:
I find it hardly realistic or amusing that NPC's that seem quite intelligent in conversation act all psychotic and dump as rock in combat. The behavior is not that big of a problem with many of the hostile NPC's as half of what you encounter are savages, raiders, animals/creatures/monsters or just in general would not be expected to care about lives of it's allies or innocents.
Taking controll makes total sense as that way I and others could make NPC companions act as ittelligently as their perceived intelligence should allow. Also having it as option in say sfall would allow you to keep your psychotic friends and let the rest of us actually dare to take the NPC's with us without fear of them shooting us in the back.
I love my psychotic friends; it is one of the greatest and bravest design decisions made in a game of that period. You can give them general combat settings, but in the heat of battle you just don’t know what will happen. When Marcus pulls out a Bozar or Rocket launcher, we know it’s time to run. Ironically our friends are potentially our most dangerous foes. Sulik charging a pack of Deathclaws is hilarious, just trying to keep him alive is half the fun (just shoot each critter once and they will attack you – then run around in circles while the boys waste them one at a time). There are various tactics for survival, but they aren’t as carefully organized as Fallout Tactics, and that’s why Fallout 1 & 2 is better…it just feels more chaotic… perceived intelligence and combat intelligence are two different beasts…but remember it’s just a game.Petrell said:
.Pixote. said:
What you see as design decision I see as flawed/rushed AI design due to too little developent time or lack of AI programmer skill.
Let's face, FO1/2 AI is exremely generic and simplistic. All the critters pretty much seem to use the same AI routines and only difference in tactics comes from weapons the AI's are equiped with. Melee fighters rush to get into close combat and and AI's with ranged weapons will move close enough to fire and start shooting not caring what is between them and the target. This same behavior is programmed to all AI's wether they are giant rat or trained Enclave soldier. The reason for all the brustfire/area effect accidents is simply that the AI routines lack any checks for their surroundings/enviroment so basically they don't see anything but their target.
AI's targetting algorythm is also exremely simple as you kindly pointed out. It should at least re-evaluate it's targeting each turn to see if there is better target around.
And before you ask, yes, I would love to play Fallout (setting) meets UFO (destructable terrain, elevations) meets Jagged Alliance (tactics) meets Silent Storm
Continuum
Vault Fossil
Are you going to rewrite your opponents' AI to keep combat challenging and balanced? Taking control over NPCs will make game much more easier (as you pointed out AI is total shit), since they're going to act much more intelligent (at the same level as player), thus fight much more effective against your dumb opponents.Petrell said:
Of course, just like you have an option to not take them with you. Fallout is about choices and consequences after allPetrell said:
Maybe Fallout isn't a game for you then?Petrell said:And before you ask, yes, I would love to play Fallout (setting) meets UFO (destructable terrain, elevations) meets Jagged Alliance (tactics) meets Silent Storm