Supreme Court says no killing teens!

welsh

Junkmaster
Ok, so you can't kill teens no matter how much you might want to.

According to the Supreme Court, the death penalty cannot be applied to minors no matter how heinous their crime.

Is this fair?

Another act of activist judges?

Supreme Court Abolishes Juvenile Death Penalty

Wed Mar 2, 2:28 AM ET U.S. National - Reuters

By James Vicini

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) on Tuesday abolished the death penalty for juveniles, an important victory for opponents of capital punishment in the only country that gave official sanction to such executions.

In a 5-4 ruling that cited the "overwhelming weight of international opinion," the high court declared unconstitutional the death penalty for those under the age of 18 when they committed their crimes.

The decision in the case of a 1993 Missouri killing could affect more than 70 death-row inmates who face execution for murders done when they were 16 or 17 years old. The total U.S. death-row population is nearly 3,500.

The court abandoned its decision 16 years ago that the execution of juvenile offenders did not violate the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

Tuesday's decision was another in the court's recent history of limiting the application of the death penalty, which it had reinstated in 1976.

The Amnesty International human rights organization, which has campaigned for years against the execution of juvenile offenders, hailed the ruling.

"Today's ruling we see as one of the final milestones in the road to global abolition of the death penalty for crimes committed by children," a spokeswoman for the group said in London.

Opponents of capital punishment had argued that world opinion and now a national consensus opposed the juvenile death penalty and said it should be struck down as unconstitutional, as the Supreme Court did in 2002 in barring executions of mentally retarded criminals.

MAJORITY OPINION

In the court's majority opinion, Justice Anthony Kennedy (news - web sites) agreed. "Neither retribution nor deterrence provides adequate justification for imposing the death penalty on juvenile offenders," Kennedy wrote in the 25-page opinion.

"It is proper that we acknowledge the overwhelming weight of international opinion against the juvenile death penalty, resting in large part on the understanding that the instability and emotional imbalance of young people may often be a factor in the crime," he said.

The ruling came in a case from Missouri involving Christopher Simmons, who was 17 in 1993 when he tied up a woman and threw her from a bridge to her death by drowning. The decision overturned his death sentence.

Simmons is now a remorseful adult who works to end youth violence, said Rita Linhardt of the Missouri Ban Youth Executions Coalition, which has worked for years on the case and called the ruling a victory.

"He has realized the mistakes he made and regrets his decisions that night," she said.

The United States was the only country in the world that still gave official sanction to the juvenile death penalty, Kennedy said in his ruling.

He noted the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child, which prohibits the juvenile death penalty, has been ratified by every country except Somalia and the United States.

Only seven countries other than the United States have executed juvenile offenders since 1990, he said. They are Iran (news - web sites), Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of Congo (news - web sites) and China.

Since 1990, each of the seven countries has abolished capital punishment for juveniles or made public disavowal of the practice, Kennedy said.

Twenty states allow the juvenile death penalty, he said.

Since the Supreme Court reinstated the death penalty in 1976, 22 inmates have been executed for murders committed at ages 16 or 17, according to the Death Penalty Information Center. That accounts for about 2 percent of the total number of executions.

In Atlanta, former President Jimmy Carter said, "This ruling acknowledges the profound inconsistency in prohibiting those under 18 years of age from voting, serving in the military, or buying cigarettes, while allowing them to be sentenced to the ultimate punishment."

Chief Justice William Rehnquist and Justices Sandra Day O'Connor, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas dissented.

"I would not substitute our judgment about the moral propriety of capital punishment for 17-year-old murderers for the judgments of the nation's legislatures," O'Connor said.

Scalia said the court's interpretation of the U.S. Constitution should not be influenced by other nations.
 
Damnit, Welsh. Beating me to threads. =(

I have no guff with the Supreme Court's decision. How can we end the life of an individual that hasn't the same privileges as adult citizens?

What I do have a problem is:

"It is proper that we acknowledge the overwhelming weight of international opinion against the juvenile death penalty, resting in large part on the understanding that the instability and emotional imbalance of young people may often be a factor in the crime," he said.

What the fuck should international opinion have on Constitutional interpretation? Or domestic opinion for that matter?
 
Yeah, except the sentences are typically carried out on individuals that are adult.

It totally pisses me off to see a large, emotive headline like "JUVENILE SENTENCED TO DEATH" with Amnesty Int. going whine-whine-bitch-moan and the upon the lecture of the article learning that a 39-year old man was executed for a murder he commited when he was 17. For fuck's sake, is a 39 year old convict or whatthefuck juvenile?

Unless one is juvenile when his life is being taken by the state, I have no problem with seeing him injected with a poison.

Also, I'm not American, but the abolishing of the capital punishment in EU is stupid.
 
If people in the US can execute babies, and "not quite" babies and normal adults, and in some states, old people, or very sick people, I see no reason why teenagers should be sheltered from such a fate.
 
Silencer said:
Yeah, except the sentences are typically carried out on individuals that are adult.
It totally pisses me off to see a large, emotive headline like "JUVENILE SENTENCED TO DEATH" with Amnesty Int. going whine-whine-bitch-moan and the upon the lecture of the article learning that a 39-year old man was executed for a murder he commited when he was 17. For fuck's sake, is a 39 year old convict or whatthefuck juvenile?
Unless one is juvenile when his life is being taken by the state, I have no problem with seeing him injected with a poison.
Also, I'm not American, but the abolishing of the capital punishment in EU is stupid.
This makes absolutely no sense Silencer. Apparently someone must relay the obvious to you that death row inmates in the US are typically on death row for a decade or more (unless you're in Texas :roll:). So unless an 8 year old or younger was sentenced to death everyone who was convicted as a juvenile would be an adult when executed.

Even though I don't believe in capital punishment for minors, just because you would be an adult when executed is irrelevant; you were a juvenile when you committed the crime you are being executed for.
Commissar Lauren said:
If people in the US can execute babies, and "not quite" babies and normal adults, and in some states, old people, or very sick people, I see no reason why teenagers should be sheltered from such a fate.
Assuming you are referring to abortion, executing the mentally handicapped and infanticide, your arguments are flawed. Infanticide and abortion are separate issues that are not to be discussed here, and only the barbarians in Texas (iirc) would execute someone who is by definition unable to take care of themselves.

This boils down to an argument about at what age people are able to tell right form wrong. The law is set at 18 for this- the point where you can vote, fight, and are generally responsible for your actions, emotionally, financially, and in all other ways. Except drinking of course! :roll: There is no better way to provide equal protection and justice to all, because there is no airtight way to judge if someone is truly mature enough to be considered an adult. If there were, then half of all American adults could still be juveniles and half of all juveniles would be adults.
 
Murdoch said:
Assuming you are referring to abortion, executing the mentally handicapped and infanticide, your arguments are flawed. Infanticide and abortion are separate issues that are not to be discussed here

Sorry. I'm just in favor of equal rights to death. Is it fair to discriminate based on age, mental health, race or sex? Everyone owes a death in the end anyways, why not just speed the process along?

But seriously, I'm not in favor of killing "minors", however some crimes are blatently adult in nature. The younger a person is, the less I am inclined to punish with maximum penalties for their crimes. However, I also believe the punishment should fit the crime. I understand your argument that there needs to be a legal cut off age for responsibility, however I do think that some crimes, almost no matter the age, need to be punished fully.

I don't think it is very hard to convince a jury that a young person was falsly influenced towards bad choices. But I don't really care how old you are, raping and murdering someone, for example, is a crime if you're 13 or 83. Would it be so hard to allow a judge to decide if the nature of a crime means someone should be tried as an adult? I think if someone is capable of planning and commiting an "adult" crime, they should be allowed to be punished as one. Obviously not everyone agrees, but doesn't it make more sense for that decision to be made on a case by case basis instead?

Of course, not executing someone doesn't mean they get away with whatever they have done. Life in prison can be a very long time, especially if you start young.

The ratio of Justice to Mercy is a delicate one to keep I suppose. However I think that the Law should allow for those decisions to be made locally and on an individual basis, especially since there is no way to forsee every possible situation.
 
Sorry, but I think most of these juvenile crims are well aware of their actions; the fact that they are excused on account of being immature just makes them feel that they can do whatever they want and get away with it.

IMO, there should be no excuses; juveniles should get the same treatment as adults regardless.
 
Murdoch said:
This makes absolutely no sense Silencer. Apparently someone must relay the obvious to you that death row inmates in the US are typically on death row for a decade or more (unless you're in Texas :roll:). So unless an 8 year old or younger was sentenced to death everyone who was convicted as a juvenile would be an adult when executed.

Ah, but that's exactly what I'm aiming at, Murdoch. Seeing as how it's nearly impossible to have one executed as a minor, I find the notion of 'sentencing juveniles to death' nonsense. But to hell with that, it's not my problem anyway.

Oh, and frankly, I wasn't expecting a two-digit figure regarding the time spent on average on death row.
 
The fact is anyone capable of doing an adult act like murder is obviously mature and should be considered an adult.

I guess thats what many others are saying. I especially have to agree with Lauren on this.

Sincerely,
The Vault Dweller
 
The ruling came in a case from Missouri involving Christopher Simmons, who was 17 in 1993 when he tied up a woman and threw her from a bridge to her death by drowning. The decision overturned his death sentence.

Sounds like Simmons was mature enough to know what he was doing to me.

Besides that, it's been pointed out that by the time they are actually executed, they've been sitting on death row long enough to reach adulthood.

I just don't see being 16 or 17 as an excuse to get out of the death penalty for murder. You may still be immature at that age, but you should be fully aware that murder, rape, and such are most definately wrong by then.

I agree that it would work much better on a case by case basis.
 
Corpse said:
Sorry, but I think most of these juvenile crims are well aware of their actions; the fact that they are excused on account of being immature just makes them feel that they can do whatever they want and get away with it.

IMO, there should be no excuses; juveniles should get the same treatment as adults regardless.

I think the point that others were trying to make is that if juveniles were to get the same treatment as adults, than they should be able to vote, drive, visit strip clubs, buy cigs, etc. If societal mores dictate that a sixteen-year-old doesn't have the reasoning capability to buy a pack of Marlboro's, then by the same reasoning he wouldn't know what he was doing if he was murdering someone.

I'm not arguing for it or against it, but I can see the legal inconsistency.
 
Legal inconsistencies abound. The best we can do is not look at them too long as they make our heads hurt.

I was going to post some big longwinded thing about executing "juveniles" and mental defectives, but I'll try to be brief, for once. Situational ethics. That's why we have courts and juries and judges to interpret laws. Let anyone who murders stand a trial for murder. If he is deemed fully aware of his actions, then he shall be punished in accordance with the law. If not, he shall be given what his circumstances prescribe. I agree with Lauren; there should be no 100% free pass for any crime, for any circumstances.
 
The_Vault_Dweller said:
The fact is anyone capable of doing an adult act like murder is obviously mature and should be considered an adult.

Yet that violates the very concept of a minor. If you're saying that minors are magically mature when they commit a felony or grievous offense, you throw the whole thing right out the window.

How can you prosecute a person as an adult, that isn't even recognized by law as one?

Citizens under the age of 18 are considered not to be able to make their own decisions. This isn't instantly waived when they all of a sudden commit an "adult" act. If so, there would be no point to statuotory rape laws.
 
This is not going to be a popular thing to say but-

Historically minors were generally those of you who were under 21. In some states estate laws still make that distinction. The reason why it's not, may have more to do with who gets enlisted to die in war. If you draft a person at 18, a person who be able to vote- thus the age of majority.

Honestly, I don't think people really do mature until they reach their 20s. I think there are studies out there that show that a mind is still developing through their late teen years.

SO how can you put a person to death as an adult when they haven't become an adult yet.

That said, historically the notion of criminal punishment has been that if an adolescent minor commits an act like an adult, they bear the responsibility of an adult. So why not put them to death if death is not seen as cruel and unusual punishment.

But I have to admit, this part-
Only seven countries other than the United States have executed juvenile offenders since 1990, he said. They are Iran (news - web sites), Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Nigeria, the Democratic Republic of Congo (news - web sites) and China.

Yeah, that's a peer group I want to be part of.

As for looking at international standards- actually that's often done by courts all over the world. The quesiton is what is fair, equitable, just- are moral standards and often a court will ask whether it's actions are consistent with what is recognized as morally right.

This comes up when considering international law as well- the law is made up of treaties, customs and the domestic laws of nations.
If the laws of nations generally says that putting teens to death is cruel and unusual, it will be something the court will consider in making a decision. It will not base it's decision on the other legal jurisprudence per se. One sees this more on issues of commercial and business law than in criminal law- in part because of globalized commerce.

Think about this - let's say you get a 17 year old guy who kidnaps a 16 year old girl, takes her to woods, rapes her repeatedly, then decapitates her while she's still alive just for the thrill of it (and yeah this has happened), why should this guy get toasted with 20K volts?
 
Only, international law should have no bearing on the interpretation of the United States constitution. The Constitution was not written by Europeans. It was not written by the Japanese. It was written by Americans, to be interpreted by Americans. If something violates the constitution, then it is unconstitutional. Period. Whether or not foreigners have different or similar views does not matter.

Considering the opinion of foreign law violates the impartiality of the courts.

Yeah, that's a peer group I want to be part of.

Don't smoke. :)
 
Well Bradylama, one could argue that.

Truth is that external opinion has little to do with what court's actually decide in the US, perhaps less so than in other countries.

The doctrine of stare decisis and common law allows for courts to look at a variety of sources in doing judicial interpretation. Civil law systems seem to be more constrained by a more strict interpretation of their domestic law and have less autonomy. Their borrowing from international standards perhaps has more to do with being part of other international systems.

That said, in the US, it's still the Supreme Court that determines the law and it's still the Constitution that is the final law of the land. Whether the US looks outside of the US to consider what other "civilized" nations considers is just or equitable or fair, does not make those meditations on foreign law binding.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me that the courts often look outside of the US system since the US system was not made in a vacume. Judges need to make a good argument for their interpretations and just like students will look up sources to shape their arguments, judges can consider and learn from outside sources. If the court is to determine "what does justice mean" or "what is equitable" - perhaps an outside legal system has found a better rule or policy that is more just or equitable. It also places the courts within the context of more general legal history and jurisprudence, the philosophy of law.

Our courts are courts of law and equity- but the equity side comes from the ecclesiastical courts of Rome. Our notions of human rights often traces itself to natural law theory, also derived from Canon Law.

Even in commerce- laws of admiralty and trade often depend on the law being able to reduce the transaction action costs of different systems of jurisprudence. Admiralty for instance and it's rules on general average, salvage, etc- can be traced back to ancient Phoenicians. Our rules on forum non conveniens is actually derived from Scotland. We've borrowed a lot from the English legal system including the very tradition of common law that still defines our legal practice.

So no, this is not such a problem. The language of law in the US allows for significant interpretation by the courts. Antitrust is perhaps one of the most liberally and loosely phrased bodies of law. Much of what we know as antitrust law comes through judicial decision making. Should a court of jurists be stuck trying to figure out what "anti-competitive" than perhaps the EU courts which have wrestled with this same problem have an answer that the US can borrow.

The benefit is that the US legal system is similar to that abroad and people in one country have a more predictive and calculable expectation of what legal decisions will be handed down in another country- shaping norms, values and expectations. That makes global trade and commerce more easy and reduces the transaction costs that you Libertarians are trying to get rid of.

YOu can argue that such judicial constructions are not what the courts should do. You might be right. However, the notion of judicial decision making needs to be seen in conjunction of the politics of legislation and executive action. If the courts have a lot of leeway in interpreting the law, part of the reason might be that Congress has been too lazy to define things well and the courts are left with the question of "what the fuck does that mean?" when they read the statute.

Personally, I wouldn't want US jurisprudence to be determined by the jurisprudence abroad. That said, I don't mind the fact that jurisprudence is a philosophy that transcends sovereign borders and that people can learn from others.

That's pretty much where the US system of looking at other national systems lies.
 
But... how can anyone kill another being and get away with it? I understand "your mind isn't mature" but one of the basic things in life is not to harm other people. By tying someone up, or pointing a gun at their face, that's saying something right there.
 
MadDog -[TO said:
-]But... how can anyone kill another being and get away with it?

Commissar Lauren said:
Of course, not executing someone doesn't mean they get away with whatever they have done. Life in prison can be a very long time, especially if you start young.

I'm not really familier with how prisons are in the States, but I assume someone who is spending the majority of their life in one doesn't consider it "Getting away with" whatever they have done. I do know that in Russia, some prisoners happily live out their days in Prison or Prison colonies, where others end up dead very quickly, either from themselves, guards, or other prisoners. Children don't tend to get life sentences, as usually 20 years is considered enough punishment even for killing someone.

Then again, there is probably a substantial difference in the quality and experiences in the prison systems between Russia and the US.
 
Most American prisons are full of satellite TV, weight rooms, and all this good stuff.

I see a lot of people who kill someone and only get "10 - 30 years." That's not equal.
 
Bradylama- perhaps this is really what upsets you?

Conservatives are bound to be furious when they feel that more liberal societies’ values are being foisted on a fundamentally different America

I don't think anyone is thinking that a killer will get away with it. The question is the type of punishment that will be inflicted.

Don't forget that if you're a kid and you go to a prison, you can expect some pretty nasty things to happen.

One question this raises is whether the Death Penalty in the US is on the way out-

An end to killing kids

Mar 2nd 2005
From The Economist Global Agenda

America’s Supreme Court has abolished the death penalty for those under 18 when they committed their crimes. It is just another nibble at the edge of still-popular capital punishment—but does it show that America can sometimes be swayed by world opinion?

WHICH country seems the odd one out in this list: China, Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and the United States? These eight countries are the only ones in the world that, since 1990, have executed citizens who were under 18 when they committed their crimes. Now, at last, the world’s self-proclaimed beacon of freedom will be able to take itself off the list. On Tuesday March 1st, America’s Supreme Court ruled, by five votes to four, that putting to death those who were minors at the time of their crimes is unconstitutional. The move reprieves 72 juvenile offenders on death row.

Of course, the death penalty will remain in place for convicted murderers in America. Indeed, it remains popular—two-thirds of Americans support it (though this number drops to half when life imprisonment without parole is offered as an alternative). Despite this week’s ruling, America is clearly still out of step with most of the countries it considers its friends.

More than half of the world’s countries have either abolished the death penalty for normal crimes or have imposed moratoriums, according to Amnesty International, a non-governmental organisation that campaigns against capital punishment. These include all but two countries in Europe and Central Asia (Belarus and Uzbekistan), as well as both of America’s neighbours, Canada and Mexico, and like-minded countries such as Australia and New Zealand. Among large democracies, only India, South Korea and Japan still practise capital punishment. But it is rare in those places. According to Amnesty, in 2003, 84% of the world’s known executions took place in just four countries: China, Iran, Vietnam and America.

Though America’s polls do not show it, the tide may be creeping against the death penalty. One reason to think it will not last forever is that in most of the countries where it has been abolished, a majority of the public remained in favour of keeping it at the time. In most cases, crime rates failed to shoot up after abolition—thus putting paid to the argument for execution as deterrence—and populations came to believe that judicial killing was wrong under any circumstances. Only one formerly abolitionist country has resumed executions—the Philippines—though it has since suspended them again.

A second trend is the gradual nibbling away at the death penalty within America itself. In 2002, the Supreme Court ruled that most Americans now regarded the mentally retarded as “categorically less culpable than the average criminal”, and banned executing them. Ten years earlier, Bill Clinton, then a presidential candidate, had burnished his law-and-order credentials by letting the execution of a retarded man go ahead in Arkansas, where he was governor. But more recently, another governor with a national profile, George Ryan of Illinois, put a moratorium on his state’s use of the death penalty, and later granted clemency to all prisoners on death row. He was concerned about the number of inmates exonerated by DNA evidence after already having been sentenced to die.

A third trend against the death penalty in America is the increasing attention paid to moral views elsewhere. In the Supreme Court’s majority opinion, written by Justice Anthony Kennedy, the court acknowledged “the overwhelming weight of international opinion against the juvenile death penalty”. While the court explicitly said that foreign opinions, legal or moral, are not binding in American law, they were nonetheless “respected and significant confirmation” for Tuesday’s ruling. Antonin Scalia, the leading conservative on the bench, stoutly rejected any such notion. “Though the views of our own citizens are essentially irrelevant to the court's decision today, the views of other countries and the so-called international community take centre stage,” he raged.

But it is not the first such case. In the 2002 ruling in Lawrence v Texas, the Supreme Court struck down a state statute forbidding private homosexual conduct. The court ruled that: “Where a case’s foundations have sustained serious erosion, criticism from other sources is of greater significance…[T]o the extent Bowers [a previous case that had upheld the anti-sodomy law] relied on values shared with a wider civilization, the case’s reasoning and holding have been rejected by the European Court of Human Rights, and other nations have taken action consistent with an affirmation of the protected right of homosexual adults to engage in intimate, consensual conduct.”

In other words, courts have previously cited other countries, or sometimes pre-American traditions, in making their case. The anti-sodomy Bowers decision had argued that prohibitions on homosexuality went back to biblical times from which much of Western ethics and morality is drawn. The Lawrence decision essentially replied that shared tradition is shared tradition, and that if the rest of the Judeo-Christian world is changing, America should not be blind to it. But conservatives are bound to be furious when they feel that more liberal societies’ values are being foisted on a fundamentally different America.

The death penalty is far from dead in America. The capture last weekend in Kansas of a serial murderer who had taunted his victims’ families and the police for decades will remind Americans that sometimes evil is just evil. “Victims-rights” groups remain potent. And anyway America remains happy to swim against the Western cultural mainstream in a host of areas. At a United Nations conference this week on women’s rights and health, for instance, the American delegation insisted that any declaration explicitly rule out the creation of “new international human rights”, a reference to a putative right to abortion.

America may be happy to differ sharply from the world’s other democracies on some moral and ethical issues, and this often irritates its closest friends. But this week’s death-penalty ruling seems to show that even a superpower can sometimes be swayed, even if just a bit.
 
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