The oil problem

Hi guys, I've been watching this site for a while now and finally decided to register since it looks to be one of the few places you can have intelligent discussions and well I could use some of those.

I'd like to say something about hybrids. Perhaps they're the way to go in the states but here in Romania a Prius goes for around €25.500 or $38.000 and that is the only variant you can buy. As you see no one in their right mind would ever buy one to save money on gas (which is around $7.50 a gallon by the way). Also hybrids cost more to maintain so add that on top of the extreme price.
Still, the number one vehicle type that is on the rise here is the luxury SUV.
(You'd find out that logic in this country is a bit warped, but more of that later.)
 
myzko said:
Nuclear Power ftw.
Nuclear power is awesome but it's definitely the red headed step child of energy sources in the U.S. - mostly because of the waste it produces (lack of storage places + waste itself being dangerous). Thats one of the reason that most of our nuclear plants are decades old.
 
Perhaps they're the way to go in the states but here in Romania a Prius goes for around €25.500 or $38.000 and that is the only variant you can buy. As you see no one in their right mind would ever buy one to save money on gas (which is around $7.50 a gallon by the way).

You got that right, there are many places people simply can't afford to buy an eco-friendly car. The best thing to do is not own one, use the public transport service.

Gas is not that expensive in Romania though, last time i checked it was more like 4-5 dollars a gallon.
Still, the number one vehicle type that is on the rise here is the luxury SUV.

I beg to differ, the luxury SUV is a car owned by a small minority, so it's not representative. If we're talking pollution, i think that the old cars, especially large trucks and buses are the ones polluting the air and burning lots of fuel.
 
[PCE said:
el_Prez]
myzko said:
Nuclear Power ftw.
Nuclear power is awesome but it's definitely the red headed step child of energy sources in the U.S. - mostly because of the waste it produces (lack of storage places + waste itself being dangerous). Thats one of the reason that most of our nuclear plants are decades old.

imho Nuclear power has gotten a really bad rep. It's a relatively cheap and clean energy source, and we should put more money into research and using it more.. Like the Finns! :) (the ones that created Nokia)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Finland
 
Blakut said:
You got that right, there are many places people simply can't afford to buy an eco-friendly car. The best thing to do is not own one, use the public transport service.

Unfortunately the public transport service isn't up to the job. Buses and metros are mostly crowded and come at irregular intervals. They should get more, but they don't even have the funds to replace all of the old ones that are breaking apart.

Gas is not that expensive in Romania though, last time i checked it was more like 4-5 dollars a gallon.

I don't know when it was you last checked but here the cheapest is €1 per liter or around $6.7 per gallon and for good gas you pay around $7.5 pg as I've said.

I beg to differ, the luxury SUV is a car owned by a small minority, so it's not representative. If we're talking pollution, i think that the old cars, especially large trucks and buses are the ones polluting the air and burning lots of fuel.

I meant that more and more people are getting SUVs, not that they account for most of the pollution. The point I was trying to make was that in spite the increasing gas prices the demand for SUVs is increasing as well.
But don't worry as we have plenty of old trucks and buses roaming the streets.
 
The only really ecoligal friendly energy sources are wind and water at the moment.
Solar energy is at the moment highly inefficient, but research is going on here. Prolem is also to get a lot of power you need hughe parks of solar panels...
BUT!
As far as i know there was a breakthrough (more or less), so that there will be solar foils, in some time, wich is also more efficient. So this foils could be put on most materials rendering skyscrapers into Power-Plants and so on. At least that what i heard....

So Eletro Cars are the way to go, wich are getting more and more efficient, by the way.

Nuclear Energy is a good solution for short and mid- term, but do you really want to rely on a ticking bomb?
The last reports i read about them, were very bad. Alone this month we over here in europe had a case in wich the primary cooling system had a leak... - The one directly cooling the cores. Not to speak of the 1000 of small to criticall acciedents after Tschernobyll, and i'm not speaking aboud badly run UDSSR ones, but also 'modern, safe' western ones...
As far as i remember there were a few cases in wich we nearly had another meltdown.

Coal is shit.... really... nice if you want to have a grill party, but inefficient and dirty as a future energy source.

This grain to energy things (Methanol/Ethanol), are also not very good, because you need huge amounts of grain and such things, and the pollution is often not better then the one of normal 'Diesel' and such things...

So i think sooner or later we will get a lot more of wind, water and solar energy...
 
the best ecological friendly car would be one that released water vapour into the atmosphere (don't know what it is but i saw it on the TV). It's being build at the moment by japanese but they still had the problem that the technology is very expensive as takes up a lot of room (the technology exists for about 5 years now but have been reducing its parts size).


Bad_Karma said:
The only really ecoligal friendly energy sources are wind and water at the moment.
Solar energy is at the moment highly inefficient, but research is going on here. Prolem is also to get a lot of power you need hughe parks of solar panels...


About that, you if you place solar panels in strategic points around the globe, solar could provide all the power we need replacing almost every other form of energy.


As for the form of energy where you need to use some king of food, it's not very good. First of all you would need lots of land in wich to produce it and later on it could come to "eat or go to the beach on my car".

There can't be much discussion about public transports because they are the worst polluters of the globe. They produce around 80% (this may change from country to country) of the pollution created from fossil fuels.

Hydro power is a good solution but right now is going bad. With the water pollution rising up we need to store as many as we can and not waste it to produce energy that can come from other sources.

Nuclear power isnt a good solution because of the danger of meltdowns and other problems. The waste that it produces is very expensive to destroy and sometimes ends up in rivers and on the bottom of the ocean.
 
aXXo said:
Nuclear power isnt a good solution because of the danger of meltdowns and other problems. The waste that it produces is very expensive to destroy and sometimes ends up in rivers and on the bottom of the ocean.

Do you live in Russia or any nation that was under soviet rule?

No?

Then you don't have to worry about any of those things because we were paranoid about it and came up with ways to make sure it didn't happen. Even three mile island didn't actually do any noticeable damage.

What you do have to worry about are stupid politicians and cows.

Nuclear waste from a plant could be reused to make more power. BUT people don't want these secondary reactors because their waste is plutonium and people are afraid they will turn into nuclear weapons factories. DESPITE the advantages of having a much shorter halflife and a much more viable storage time measured in hundreds of years rather than thousands and DISPITE the international treaties that prevent nukes.

Blakut said:
I beg to differ, the luxury SUV is a car owned by a small minority, so it's not representative. If we're talking pollution, i think that the old cars, especially large trucks and buses are the ones polluting the air and burning lots of fuel.

Would you like me to take a picture of the highways here? SUV, vans and truck are EVERYWHERE!

No the large trucks are the worst individual polluters, but every car that is not maintained properly is polluting. No matter how new.

Ideally there are three things that should come out of your exhaust. Air, Water, and Co2. If you don't take care of your vehicle you start producing stuff it shouldn't.

LCAir-image.gif

(meh, I was going to do something with this but I'm not, but I want it in anyway)

Co2 can be dealt with naturally though conservation of our oxygen producing areas like our oceans and our forests, the other junk can't so easily.
 
Don't know if you guys read Tuesday Morning QB on ESPN.com but Gregg Easterbrook had some interesting tidbits about solar power:

TMQ said:
Space: The Saudi Arabia of Electricity: According to a recent estimate by the Department of Energy, human society is using about 15 terawatts of artificially generated energy per year; a terawatt is a trillion watts. The sun generates about 12 quadrillion terawatts per year -- about 800,000,000,000,000 times as much energy as made on Earth.


The sun makes 800,000,000,000,000 times as much energy as humanity uses -- all we need to do is tap a little.
Why do I mention this? First, this is Tuesday Morning Quarterback: I don't have to have a reason. But if you're worried about how society can solve its power needs while simultaneously breaking the fossil fuel habit -- the World Bank estimates that, even assuming big improvement in efficiency, global energy production must triple by 2050 -- think skyward. Solar cells are getting cheaper, but may always be limited to applications such as rooftop converters in places like Arizona that rarely experience cloudy weather. The real promise of solar power is up in space, where the sun always shines and the energy value of photons is much greater than on Earth's surface. (Passing through the atmosphere uses up most of the energy in sunlight.) It seems likely, though not certain, that huge solar collectors in orbit could supply all the world's power needs by capturing the intense form of sunlight found in space, then beaming the energy down to Earth via lasers or microwaves. Physicists at a recent Washington meeting estimated that solar collectors in orbit, using lasers to transmit power to converters in the North African desert, could supply all of Europe's energy at a price competitive with current power generation and without carbon emissions. A world of space-based energy would not need coal-fired or nuclear power plants, and there would be sufficient electricity available so that hydrogen could be made from seawater to power our cars and airplanes. Homo sapiens could kiss the greenhouse gas issue goodbye.

Needless to say, building orbital solar power collectors would be hugely expensive -- although once the collectors were completed, operating costs would be relatively low because no fuel is required and no waste is made. Nations would need to cooperate on positioning the orbital systems and the ground receptors. There's some chance that zapping powerful lasers or microwave beams through the atmosphere would affect the weather. And extremely expensive power towers floating in space would, sadly, provide tempting military targets. Already, the Pentagon's National Security Space Office has quietly told lawmakers it would like to build a smallish orbiting proof-of-concept solar power station that would be used to beam energy down to deployed U.S. armed forces units. The Army and Marines have countless diesel-electric generators set up in Iraq and Afghanistan; if deployed forces could draw their electric power from a beam from space, this would be preferable. But if the first space solar generator is built to support the U.S. military, this could get the whole idea off on the wrong foot, making space solar power towers feel like valid military targets.

Anyway, TMQ finds it reassuring that there are potential energy solutions that involve vast amounts of power without any greenhouse gas emissions, fissile materials that might be stolen, or atomic byproducts that must be buried. Plus, return to those sun statistics. Our star generates 12 quadrillion terawatts of energy per year, radiating in all directions, so that an estimated 100,000 terawatts per year will fall on Earth -- warming our world, causing plant growth and making life possible. Some 100,000 terawatts end up here -- the rest streams off into the void. Thus 99.999999 percent of the energy generated by the sun is wasted, except perhaps for offering career opportunities for alien astronomers and their postdocs in other parts of the galaxy. You think man wastes energy -- think about the sun!
 
Do you live in Russia or any nation that was under soviet rule?

No?

Then you don't have to worry about any of those things because we were paranoid about it and came up with ways to make sure it didn't happen.

That's just stupid prejudice.. we have had some serious accidents in Sweden aswell, and we are considered modern and hightech, and you have to be aware that most nuclear plants were constructed a long time ago in most countries and are still in use!

On May 1, 1969, a prototype nuclear power plant called Ågestaverket or R3 outside Stockholm was very close to a nuclear meltdown. It was later established that it was a coincidence that this did not happen. This incident was covered up and the public was not made aware of it until April 13, 1993.


...

In June, 2005, radioactive water was detected leaking from the nuclear waste store in Forsmark, Sweden. The content of radioactive caesium in the water sampled was ten times the normal value.


scaaary biznez that nuclear thingies
 
Ah-Teen said:
Do you live in Russia or any nation that was under soviet rule?

No?

Then you don't have to worry about any of those things because we were paranoid about it and came up with ways to make sure it didn't happen.

Accidents happen all the time. There is possibly no way you can prevent them. You can decrease its chances of happening but can never be 100% sure.
 
Still Stymied

Still Stymied



@ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polywell


Fusion power systems have been at this no net gain of energy for like ---> FOURTY - 40 - years.
Remember seeing science funding 'propaganda' - movie - in 1972 - 1973 about how fusion breakthrough was nano seconds away!

If this polly-well is a viable fusion containment vessel, consider how many decades it will take the scientists, engineers, accountants, corporate CEO's, bankers, AND POLITICIANS to line up all the pay offs and graft for a simple power plant.

Also allow for plenty of f-ck ups by the scientists and engineers. The history of NASA is proof that the PEOPLE problem hasn't been solved.

Did not this recent Mars lander have trouble shoveling sand into it's sample can? At least they *landed* at the intended destination.

Yes, scientists can be fart about bureaucrats too, and as mediocre performers as their f=ma engineer under achievers.
Cry me a river when they blame the money men and the politicians.

I repeat for the kids drugged on sci fi entertainment, [it's only a VIDEO- it's NOT real.]
the people problem has not been solved.
Deal with that and there might be a 'future', not this PR-hyped futurism.

Fusion power is decades from sharing the burden of energy generation.

I most likely will NEVER see it.

Laugh along with my ghost in 20 years if we are still 70% coal powered and driving to work (or welfare) in lead acid battery golf carts! ;-)


4too
 
@el_Prez:

[...]There's some chance that zapping powerful lasers or microwave beams through the atmosphere would affect the weather.[...]

Not to mention what serious damage microwaves or lasers could do, if they 'Accidently' hit something else than the 'collector'-station on earth.
I mean there's a reason why America is researching a 'non lethal' (because of it'S dosage i would say) microwave weapon.
And energy transfer over air, is one of the thing that eats up tons of the energy...
So really i don't think this would be much better than solar-plants or some of the neat water/air things on our earth ;)
 
i think there is a James Bond movie with the storyline where a guy uses a high solar beam concentracion to cause lots of damage in Coreia. Taking out the Coreia part, if anyone built solar power collecters in space, they could in the end up being made into military weapons.
 
aXXo said:
i think there is a James Bond movie with the storyline where a guy uses a high solar beam concentracion to cause lots of damage in Coreia. Taking out the Coreia part, if anyone built solar power collecters in space, they could in the end up being made into military weapons.
If you take out the realism part, yes.
 
i agree with the realism part, but still it makes you think if that can really happen or not. and the fact is that the heat generated by the sun can reach extreme temperatures.
 
I don't see solar power as a viable power source except in a dyson sphere.

Too much power is dissipated by the atmosphere.
 
SkynetV4 said:
I don't see solar power as a viable power source except in a dyson sphere.

Too much power is dissipated by the atmosphere.

Actually, i think you got that wrong. Each year the amount of solar energy that reaches the earth is astronomically larger than the amount of energy demand.

Just the tiny fraction of the Sun's energy that hits the Earth (around a hundredth of a millionth of a percent) is enough to meet all our power needs many times over.

In fact, every minute, enough energy arrives at the Earth to meet our demands for a whole year - if only we could harness it properly. Now, i don't say cover the whole planet with solar panels, but if we build a good enough number of solar panels we could turn the world into a smaller area and the minute into a year.
 
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