The Referendum on EU Membership in United Kingdom

[Throatpunch]

What are your opinions? Are you pro staying or leaving?
I know there are some brits on this forum so any opinions appreciated

 

[Radiosity]

Fuck the EU. Out all the way. I'm old enough to remember how much better things were before that undemocratic clusterfuck of a political gravy train got going. We don't need them.

And having Obama actually threaten us if we do leave? Yeah, he can go screw himself as well. Also, our own government spending £9 million in taxpayer's money to send out leaflets telling us why they think staying in is the best for the country is beyond disgusting. It's not best for the country, it's best for them. They simply don't want their cushy gravy train ruined :/

Bah. I have no hope of a positive result at the end of the day, our government and the EU have both done all they can to brainwash Millennials into thinking the EU is good, and the scare tactics and fearmongering about lost jobs or trade or any of the other untrue bollocks they keep running will push a whole slew of uninformed people to vote to stay in.

End of the day, I have no real hope of the west lasting much more than maybe the next 10 years anyway, we're already long overdue the next big reset, and I expect it to happen in the near future, either here in Europe, or the US. Probably the US, actually, because their medical system is so close to collapsing the country from the inside that it could well be the spark in the powder keg.

So yeah... I'm not all that positive. Therefore, I'm simply enjoying what little time I have left before everything collapses. It's been a pretty good run, all things considered.

 

[Throatpunch]

So yeah... I'm not all that positive. Therefore, I'm simply enjoying what little time I have left before everything collapses. It's been a pretty good run, all things considered.

Yeah, the economic collapse/depression will come soon so why care.

End of the day, I have no real hope of the west lasting much more than maybe the next 10 years anyway, we're already long overdue the next big reset, and I expect it to happen in the near future, either here in Europe, or the US.

We are attempting to prevent the inevitable.
Its like a guy obviously about to be sick and constantly trying to prevent it happen, so when it happens its even worse. Its why I practice survival, because when it goes down I'll be able to live in the wilds and they will be fucked with their Iphones and fashion clothes and social status. WTF will social status do for you when the SHTF, I would rather live out my days in the wild than in a NWO concentration camp labouring

I have no hope of a positive result at the end of the day, our government and the EU have both done all they can to brainwash Millennials into thinking the EU is good, and the scare tactics and fearmongering about lost jobs or trade or any of the other untrue bollocks they keep running will push a whole slew of uninformed people to vote to stay in.

they seriously gave childeren EU rubbers and pens, and waste money on bizarre projects

I honestly think the EU has done agood job on some things, like the environment and workers protection, but with squandering money it is dreadful

 

[Atomic Postman]

I'm a little split on the issue. Whilst there are some benefits to staying, such as trade and freedom of movement (though some would argue that is a disadvantage) I think overall it's more of a burden than a benefit, and that whilst the Common Market might have been useful back in the 70s, in our increasingly globalized world it's become somewhat irrelevant. Primarily though, I'm concerned with the undemocratic aspects of the EU and how it threatens parliamentary sovereingty (Take for example the Factortame case) , which I am really,really not a fan of. The Houses of Parliament and the British people should be deciding legislation within Britain, not the EU. There's of course the argument that if we stay there could be reform within the EU, which is most definitely needed (Even stay campaigners agree on this) but to me, David Cameron's recent failure of a "deal" has shown to me that the EU is not willing to play ball, and if that's the case then I don't see why we should have to stick around.

 

[Brivoo]

I'd rather stay simply because I travel around Europe very often and I despise anything that comes out of Cameron's mouth.

Personal reasons aside, I've seen two major reasons why most people refute the argument: trade and travel. In all honesty, I doubt trade would even be affected much; we never adopted the Euro so currency isn't a problem, and it's not like they'll suddenly stop trading with us if we leave. Resources are resources no matter where you are, and the gravity model of trade doesn't lie.

I dunno so much about travel, but if having to fill out a form every time I leave this goddamn island means I won't have to see it go to the dogs, then I'm all for it.

Truth to be told, I'd rather Scotland leave both the EU and the UK, but unfortunately, we're not exactly in a position to do that.

 

[SuAside]

I think it's stupid they want to leave. I doubt they realise how expensive it'll be for them.
It'll also be hilarious migrationwise since they'd also leave a few other treaties together with the EU, meaning the EU states will no longer have various responsibilities in regards to stopping migrants as well as in taking back illegal migrants that made it into the UK.

The EU certainly has issues, but in a lot of cases it's local politicians who use the EU as a boogey man since the EU is so easy to blame and cannot respond to said blame game. It's frustrating to see local politicians taking EU guidelines and turning them into much stricter laws than what the EU suggested & then have the local politicians claim they only did it because the EU forced them to...
AlphaPromethean, you should look into that kind of behavior and find out how much of this "EU legislation" is actually what you think it is. Don't believe the press nor your politicians, read the actual texts and find out a member nation's implementation of said text. Yes, it's boring as hell, but at least you'll understand what's going on.

The EU needs serious & sweeping reforms, no doubt about it. But leaving? That's entirely short term thinking and populism. It's just easier to blame impersonal foreign "institutions" for your troubles than actually handling your shit internally like you actually should. Obviously this isn't restricted to the UK, but a global issue nowadays.

PS: I'm not a Brit.

 

[Atomic Postman]

I think it's stupid they want to leave. I doubt they realise how expensive it'll be for them.
It'll also be hilarious migrationwise since they'd also leave a few other treaties together with the EU, meaning the EU states will no longer have various responsibilities in regards to stopping migrants as well as in taking back illegal migrants that made it into the UK.

The EU certainly has issues, but in a lot of cases it's local politicians who use the EU as a boogey man since the EU is so easy to blame and cannot respond to said blame game. It's frustrating to see local politicians taking EU guidelines and turning them into much stricter laws than what the EU suggested & then have the local politicians claim they only did it because the EU forced them to...
AlphaPromethean, you should look into that kind of behavior and find out how much of this "EU legislation" is actually what you think it is. Don't believe the press nor your politicians, read the actual texts and find out a member nation's implementation of said text. Yes, it's boring as hell, but at least you'll understand what's going on.

The EU needs serious & sweeping reforms, no doubt about it. But leaving? That's entirely short term thinking and populism. It's just easier to blame impersonal foreign "institutions" for your troubles than actually handling your shit internally like you actually should. Obviously this isn't restricted to the UK, but a global issue nowadays.

PS: I'm not a Brit.

Actually, I have done my fair share of reading. EU Law is without a doubt a challenge to parliamentary sovereignty. Any area of UK law that conflicts with that of EU law, EU law trumps everytime. This was a ruling made after the aforementioned Factortame incident.

And "handling your shit internally like you actually should."? That's exactly what I'm suggesting. British legislation should be up to the British people and the Houses of Parliament, not the EU. That's the point I'm trying to be make. The EU shouldn't be imposing on us and we shouldn't be imposing on anyone else.

 

[SuAside]

Actually, I have done my fair share of reading. EU Law is without a doubt a challenge to parliamentary sovereignty. Any area of UK law that conflicts with that of EU law, EU law trumps everytime. This was a ruling made after the aforementioned Factortame incident.

In joining the union, you gave the EU limited powers in certain areas. All those laws you refer to were also voted for or against by your own politicians.

And "handling your shit internally like you actually should."? That's exactly what I'm suggesting. British legislation should be up to the British people and the Houses of Parliament, not the EU. That's the point I'm trying to be make. The EU shouldn't be imposing on us and we shouldn't be imposing on anyone else.

Then why is UK law imposing on the Scots, the Welsh, etc? Where do you draw the line? States are just artificial constructs. You can divide as far down as you want.
Your own arguments can be used to split off Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and so on.
Which leaves us where exactly?

The current trend is to move responsibilities from the national level to both local and supranational level. This in order to maximize the ability to tailor your policies to both the uniqueness of the local situation and still be able to make use of the bargain power of larger institutions and ease trade.

 

[Brivoo]

Then why is UK law imposing on the Scots, the Welsh, etc? Where do you draw the line? States are just artificial constructs. You can divide as far down as you want.
Your own arguments can be used to split off Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and so on.
Which leaves us where exactly?

Imposing on territories within a country is different from having other countries impose on yours. You wouldn't care if Italy imposed certain rules on Lombardy or Spain on Andalusia, but if they were forced to follow a rule made for the French and Germans, you'd want to at least know if it's even relevant to you.

The UK is far from being a perfect democracy; it isn't even a properly functional one as of now. Scotland has, at the very least, received several devolved powers, so we're self-managerial for the most part. I'm not sure what the situation is in Wales, but NI is receiving similar (if more limited) treatment.

Either way, discussion of UK territories is a whole different can of worms, one which is sort of unique among European countries and doesn't really have any place in the current discussion (not if we're to keep it on-topic, anyway).

The current trend is to move responsibilities from the national level to both local and supranational level. This in order to maximize the ability to tailor your policies to both the uniqueness of the local situation and still be able to make use of the bargain power of larger institutions and ease trade.

I still don't think that trade would be affected all that much; other nations would have nothing to gain from cutting us off from their trading network simply because we left, and we're still a conveniently close source of primary resources.

 

[Atomic Postman]

In joining the union, you gave the EU limited powers in certain areas. All those laws you refer to were also voted for or against by your own politicians.

I realize that, and by leaving it we regain that power.

Then why is UK law imposing on the Scots, the Welsh, etc? Where do you draw the line? States are just artificial constructs. You can divide as far down as you want.
Your own arguments can be used to split off Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and so on.
Which leaves us where exactly?

If you're not familiar, the UK has devolved powers to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. They have their own assemblies/parliaments and there is actually differences in legislation between each state. I actually believe this needs to be continued further and England should have it's own seperate assembly as well. I think more power needs to be given to Scotland, Wales and NI without total independence. I know exactly where that leaves me.

 

[Brivoo]

I think more power needs to be given to Scotland, Wales and NI without total independence. I know exactly where that leaves me.

I personally think a federal system would be the best way to achieve this, but I'm no political scientist so I don't really know how we'd go about achieving that.

On a poignant note, however, I'd dare say that EVEL is basically the localized version of what the EU does to our House of Parliament.

 

[Throatpunch]

EVEL

EVEL is a good idea.
anyway, why do we not have our own assembly in England? Its unequal
the Scots and their assembly get way more money than the welsh do

 

[Millim]

Staying in would probably be the best thing right now.
Being in the EU isn't perfect, but it does have its benefits.
If we leave, not only are we pretty much cutting ties to cheap trade, but imagine a Tory party free to do whatever it likes? And considering the Financial situation of the World right now, yeah, we can't afford that.

I mean, what do people think us Brits have to offer to World?
As Putin put it, Britain is just a small Island no one listens to.
We offer nothing to the rest of the World thanks to the last 30 years or so of Government.

And on the side of Scotland and Wales having no power at all in Britain, I'm just going to point out that those two countries got a Government they didn't vote for (or UK states, whatever your perspective of it is).

 

[AskWazzup]

I think people are expecting too much from this. Even if you have some superior plan to improve things, countries with their governing bodies and legislation are like big ships - it takes decades to turn around things even in the best of circumstances. The populist parties thrive on hasty decisions that look refreshing and good on paper, and that's why shit never gets implemented fully and properly. At least it's the type of political cycle in my country.

 

[Spacemunkey]

I will refrain from commenting on another countries politics, other than to say I find the idea of a group of people from other countries deciding what is best for me where I live something I would never want to be a part of. To those who are dealing with this, I hope you take your country back.

 

[Makta]

I remeber back in the EU election in 94 when my father said this is one of the dumbest thing we have done in a long long time. Didn't take me long after getting interessted in politics to see he was right.

As a Swede i would love to see the downfall of the EU and something greater rising from the ashes. For Sweden? A nordic union! For UK? I actually have no idea, but they seem to manage without EU before and they probably would manage without it aswell.

 

[Atomic Postman]

I remeber back in the EU election in 94 when my father said this is one of the dumbest thing we have done in a long long time. Didn't take me long after getting interessted in politics to see he was right.

As a Swede i would love to see the downfall of the EU and something greater rising from the ashes. For Sweden? A nordic union! For UK? I actually have no idea, but they seem to manage without EU before and they probably would manage without it aswell.

There's always been a suggestion of making some special trade deals with the Commonwealth, though that's an idea that needs a lot more discussion and development.

 

[Sn1p3r187]

Going by heritage and the fact my Great grandmother is from the U.K. She would honestly like to see England get out of the E.U. I would rather see the E.U end and see something greater rise from the ashes.

 

[Brivoo]

EVEL is a good idea.
anyway, why do we not have our own assembly in England? Its unequal
the Scots and their assembly get way more money than the welsh do

Well for one, it would mean that if a government were to make or break based on Scottish MPs, such as how the Labour party was almost elected in 2015, they would come into power on non-devolved matters but might have to face the possibility of a different government dealing with devolved matters. It'd be completely ridiculous.

Secondly, most people forget that non-Engish MPs barely have any power on English matters as it is. For every legislation since 2001, only 1% of them would have had some sort of different outcome had the Scottish not been there.

Not to mention that the English control the government at large as well. Since 1945, only three governments in our country have not had the English MP majority as well, which is why an English parliament was never a popular idea; you don't nee it.

Not to mention that a lot of things that seem like a devolved matter actually affect the UK as a whole; for example, health spending in Scotland is a block grant based on a fixed percentage of English health spending. If the latter were cut, the former would be as well, but we would be powerless to do anything about it as it is an English matter. Since a lot of taxation works like this, it would quickly become another aspect of the bureaucratic nightmare that EVEL is shaping up to be.

EVEL would essentially turn non-English MPs into second-class citizens as they are paid to hang about Westminister and do mostly nothing all day. The obvious conclusion would be to cut their pay, leading to fewer MPs and ultimately an unfair democracy as English parties become even more over-represented than they already are.

TL;DR nothing would change for the English, despite popular belief, but Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland would lose what little say they have over their own legislations.

EDIT: As for the funds situation, I've already said that the UK is an unfair democracy, but EVEL is not the way to go about it (given how it solves absolutely nothing).

 

[Throatpunch]

TL;DR nothing would change for the English, despite popular belief, but Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland would lose what little say they have over their own legislations.

You are part of a union. Don't expect to be given the same powers as an independent nation state.
You were given a referendum and you said no, so don't expect another.
on the subject of it being a english dominated parliament, get over it since have about 50 million more people than you so of course its english dominated, and scotland is smaller so there is less seats. We are the majority of people (about 56 million in england), and a bigger economy, we make most of the rules, you cant expect it to be perfectly equal, its a pipe dream, like Germany dominates the EU, England dominates the other countries. also we have the place where all the power is, the city of london and westminster.
I agree there is no point of an english assembly, mind changed
I heard you say that scotland should leave the union. Dreadful idea. You were banking on the price of oil to be over 100 dollars per barrel, and its about 30, you would be bankrupt and begging us for money, help and a return to the union.
EVEL was all about making sure Labour didn't return to power, not scottish MPS