Jebus- Did we not already say you would get no more warnings?
CCR- chill.
Guys, your knack for flaming each other, name calling, etc. is ruining what could be a decent argument.
Ok, Kharn, interesting that you jumped over most of the argument about what distinguishes Europe from America.
I will agree that if anyone is looking to the US to be the guardian angel of world democracy, they are in for a surprise. This is an angel with dirty wings, a questionable virtue and a bloody sword. That said, who else?
Russia with the rise of Putin? China- with it's territorial grabs and threats against Taiwan? Japan with it's dreams of regional hegemony? France with it's various manuevers in Africa (I mean this is the country that protected the perpetrators of the Rwandan Genocide).
Honestly Kharn, I would love to see the Europeans step up. The question I am wondering is when?
In a lot of ways I see this problem between Europe and the US driven by two variations-
(1) perceptions of fear. Americans since 9-11 are very much thinking that it's a dangerous hostile world and they need to confront this aggressively.
Europeans seem to be willing to believe that the world is much more peaceful and there is less need to respond to it. Maybe the reason has to do with the ability to project force- the US has a big military and the ability to project it. Europe would have more trouble in that regard.
At the same time, the Europeans have taken a different approach to terrorism- they seem to deal with it as a crime while the US has clothed the war against terrorism as a war.
IN that sense, taking out the Taliban in Afghanistan was kind of like stomping on the Barbary pirates- a nuisance in the world that was causing problems and which needed to be stamped out.
Taking the war to Iraq was a bit too excessive and more reflective of US imperialistic ambitions. US believes it can afford imperialism while Europe has trouble in the few imperialistic impulses it continues to try.
I am neither a big fan of imperialism or the notion of a "war against terrorism". I am also not sure how much moves towards democratization in the Middle East are due to US influences. That said, I am doubtful if Europe could have done better or even if Europe would have shown the will to do much at all.
(2) Collective action and social movements- I think the Europeans are much better at this than the Americans. Back in the 1980s you had all sorts of folks protesting in ways that reminded Americans of the 1960s.
Furthermore Europeans have been able to sustain that for all sorts of purposes- environment, immigration, globalization debates, etc. Americans generally have a harder time doing collective action. Maybe it's in your history of revolutions, level of urbanization, strength of labor as a class. But Europeans are better at this than Americans are.
Much of that attention has been focused on yourselves. That's bad for your local governments. But now you can focus on someone else- the US- the current fat cat that Europe wants to replace. It's easier to project out your anger than to turn it inwards.
I hardly think France has given up it's colonial ambitions just as I doubt America's ambitions end in the aftermath of the Spanish American War.
How you can favor Russia over France or America is amazing, Kharn. I think your russophilia has gone to your head.
As pointed out in the message, to think of American foreign policy as angelic is foolish. US ambitions have almost always been selfish. That said, US ambitions have often been built on the notion of a liberal world view that sustains a global capitalist economy. Since the end of the Cold War the political angle has favored democratization, while during the Cold War we distinguished autocratic tyrants as a step better than the entrenched autocracies of the communist totalitarian states.
French post-colonial mistakes are still being replicated often to the benefit of a narrow elite class of French and African elites who have the most to gain from cozy arrangements.
Better than the US? I don't think so.
Sure the US has it's dirty laundry. But generally that dirty laundry gets shown and we become embarrassed (ok, so the current asshole in the White House doesn't always get it). The French have their dirty laundry, but cover it up better and when it does get revealed, they call it art.
What bothers me is that the US has become more French-like over the past five years- more invested in colonial exercises, more willing to deploy troops for imperial missions, more willing to make deals with tyrants, more vested in a notion of its cultural superiority, and (most of all) more likely to utilize politics as a means to improve relationships between business and political elites to the cost of society.
So yes, I too see the big vote in favor of France more as a vote against the US than a statement about French moral superiority. No if only the French were so modest to understand that too?
